Truth thoery.

OpVines 08-18-2006 08:42 AM
Ah yes. I fail at spelling. Frown

And how come this thread has over twice as many replies as my theory thread does? Frown
Inigo Montoya 08-18-2006 11:47 AM
Wasn't it here first?
Nine Kuze 08-18-2006 01:24 PM
Who cares? It happens sometimes... or a lot actually.

Anyway, back to the theory. I don't know. Seems farfecthed to me. Dorothy does care about her own memories and Alan just seems like the kind of guy who just worries about his own 'fix', if you know what I mean.

And like Big Finale said, the big thing here, is that Gabriel surely doesn't have any ears. Also, the 'blindfold' could just be part of his mask. And Dorothy wore a blindfold in Act 1, during the whole 'being kidnapped and being saved by tall, dark, and handsome Roger' fiasco.
Peace.
Shadow dorothy 08-18-2006 03:57 PM
UUUmmm why does he need ears to SEE the truth. And hes a Cyborg, he proably got rid of them. And Alan can connect with the Bigs to just in a weird way.
So heres what I got, both wear blindflods(Dorothy wears a Blindfold again in ACT 14), they both connect with the Bigs, and don't seem concerned with the memories of others just themselfs, and don't seem to care for those they work for [when they really do], and take joy at seeing a Big.
Tsukaggin 08-18-2006 04:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shadow dorothy
and don't seem to care for those they work for [when they really do], and take joy at seeing a Big.


Since when does Dorothy seem like she doesn't care about Roger? Her monotone voice is a constant, hardly denoting disdain. I haven't noticed her implying anything along the lines of not caring. Quite the opposite actually.

And likewise, when did she take joy at the sight of a Big? Episode reference if you could.
OpVines 08-18-2006 09:36 PM
Completely offtopic: Dorothy, I noticed you spell it "Kentucy,Usa" in your location area. It's spell "Kentucky". :/ I don't think it's a good sign if you spell your own state wrong.
Jixie 08-18-2006 09:46 PM
There are a few rambling thoughts I have about this, hopefully I can put them together now.

It always seemed that the androids had a better sense of reality and purpose than the humans we meet in Big O. Watching the show I felt that they had a better comprehension on the big mystery behind memories, but it doesn't matter as much to them.

The more human-like they are, it seems, and the closer they are to that knowledge. R. Dorothy, who always seems to know more about what's happening than she lets on; Roscoe Fitzgerald, who actually HAD memories from forty years ago, who didn't have a tomato replacement; Big Ear... you get the picture. Alan, being a cyborg, is a little harder to place seeing as how he has a hand in each side (ha ha ha, sorry). He seemed confidant of his knowledge before shooting Vera, and he had to have a clear enough idea of what's going on to play both Rosewater and the Union. Based on Schwarzwald/Duo's angry lecture, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he actually had some real knowledge of the truth, but was too self-centered to care.

Someone had pointed out that in a way, Dorothy and Alan are inversely parallel characters. Dorothy starts out an android, a robot mock-up of a girl who died. She is aloof and emotionally distant, alienated from all but her father/creator. As we get to know her and she grows in character, we find out how human she really is. At first Roger denies it, Dorothy denies it. But we see her state she doesn't feel fear before running in terror from the Archetype, we see her fall in love and be hurt by Rogers thoughtlessness, jealous of Angel's advances. It's little wonder Dorothy is such a fan favorite, she is a very interesting and captivating person.

On the other hand, Alan started out as a human. He becomes part machine, betrays everyone he knows, and strives only to satisfy his own pleasure. He doesn't seem to care about people, and gets a sadistic kick out of demolishing fellow androids (actually I wonder if that isn't displaced self-destructive behavior, but that's another ramble). Roger is told that he was mistaken thinking he could control machines, but Alan connects to Duo and thinks of it as nothing more than an extension of his own body-- and who here doesn't think that he should've known better? It he does have any knowledge about the truth, it makes his attitude even more terrible.

In the end, Dorothy is more human that Alan is. There are other things, some of which have already been touched on. There is a clear parallel/archenemies thing going on with Roger and Alex. Dorothy and Alan act as their quiet, obedient, robotic servants/assistants. Dorothy admires and loves Roger, Alan seems to admire and despise Alex. She is loyal, even beyond death; he betrays again and again, finally loosing to his selfish desires. Angel doesn't like either of them very much (ha ha, sorry). They both voluntarily connect to a Big far beyond what any of the pilots do.

So, I agree that Dorothy and Alan are contrasting characters. It's entirely possible that they know something about the truth behind Paradigm. I don't know that the blindfold is mean to symbolize anything, although there is a lot of odd symbolism and ongoing themes in Big O... I think this one was more of a coincidence (Dorothy was blindfolded because she was kidnapped, Alan because it's part of a weird/unique character design).

Regarding the blindfold, remember it goes all the way around his head and would cover his ears. Now, he can see and hear just fine, but he IS a cyborg and so we really don't know what's going under there. Are his eyes human, or are they robotic like Dorothy or like Big Ear? Does he even have any? Same goes for the suit. I mean, whyyyyy are his legs so thin, weird character design or...?

But that's another ramble.

~J
Shadow dorothy 08-18-2006 10:19 PM
Dorothy is always happy to see Big O, he can talk tp her about stuff.
As for why I spell my state wrong-I live in back water-hickville and no one can spell that great (I don't like this town to many people hate me for no reason)
and as for Alan I think he might be anerxic cause of how thin he is... or had his legs replaced>.<
OpVines 08-19-2006 01:55 AM
I'm pretty sure when I say when you make yourself into a machine, your body no longer grows and you no longer need food. :/

That's a pretty comprehensive analysis Jixie, but I found something I disagree with: "In the end, Dorothy is more human that Alan is." Literally, Alan is more human than Dorothy, being once human and having a mind of his own, while Dorothy is ruled by the memories of her old living self, at least until she develops her own.

You pointed out that Alan is less human than Dorothy because he is cruel and betraying while Dorothy is compassionate. While this makes Dorothy more humane than Alan, it does not make her human. Cruelty is nothing new to human behavior.

In fact, I think a theory could be made that humans are cruel and the machines are more humane than the humans themselves, which might ultimately mean humans will erase themselves and enter oblivion.
DorothyFan1 08-19-2006 08:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by OpVines
I'm pretty sure when I say when you make yourself into a machine, your body no longer grows and you no longer need food. :/

That's a pretty comprehensive analysis Jixie, but I found something I disagree with: "In the end, Dorothy is more human that Alan is." Literally, Alan is more human than Dorothy, being once human and having a mind of his own, while Dorothy is ruled by the memories of her old living self, at least until she develops her own.

You pointed out that Alan is less human than Dorothy because he is cruel and betraying while Dorothy is compassionate. While this makes Dorothy more humane than Alan, it does not make her human. Cruelty is nothing new to human behavior.

In fact, I think a theory could be made that humans are cruel and the machines are more humane than the humans themselves, which might ultimately mean humans will erase themselves and enter oblivion.


This may be one of the overarching themes of Big O and Paradigm City. It's entirely possible the scenario you suggest has already happened. Humans have erased themselves from existence - hence the constant "resetting" going on in Paradigm as a metaphor for forgetting the past and trying to start anew in a computer simulated enviornment. Act 26 is the nail in the coffin for the idea that Roger is really human. He's a copy of a Roger template used to be the Negotiator in the city...while it's abundantly clear that Dorothy is probably the Director of Paradigm. How? How was it possible for Dorothy to know where the Control Room was while Angel only stumbles onto it?
Tsukaggin 08-19-2006 01:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DorothyFan1
This may be one of the overarching themes of Big O and Paradigm City. It's entirely possible the scenario you suggest has already happened. Humans have erased themselves from existence - hence the constant "resetting" going on in Paradigm as a metaphor for forgetting the past and trying to start anew in a computer simulated enviornment. Act 26 is the nail in the coffin for the idea that Roger is really human. He's a copy of a Roger template used to be the Negotiator in the city...while it's abundantly clear that Dorothy is probably the Director of Paradigm. How? How was it possible for Dorothy to know where the Control Room was while Angel only stumbles onto it?


I think you're allowing your Dorothy fandom to over rule you're baser analyses skills. Nothing points to Dorothy being the "Director". Her knowing where the control room is could be little more then convenient plot device. This is after all, still a TV show. There will be such things. That's actually what I think Alan's black band is as well. Convenient dramatic character design. A plot device. Nothing more.

And please point out where she seems pleased at Big Os arrival, for reasons other then "Oh thank god, Rogers here to save our ass's again."?
Shadow dorothy 08-20-2006 10:02 AM
Ok you want to know when Dorothy is happy to see Big O.
to put this very simpley, Dorothy likes Roger, Roger polets Big O, Big O cares about Dorothy and so does Roger. So when Big O comes for Dorothy thats an excuse to be closer to Roger or to get away from people.
Tsukaggin 08-20-2006 06:09 PM
Since when has Dorothy needed an excuse to do either of those things? Or used Big O to do so? And when has Big O come for Dorothy specifically? I'm afraid your line of thinking is rather hard to fallow. Sort of like piecing together a jigsaw puzzle with only half the pieces.

-Tsukaggin
Shadow dorothy 08-20-2006 10:12 PM
How bout when Beck wants to do something to her disk drive Sweatdrop and Roger does tend to distance himself from Dorothy from time to time, like "I'm going out for a while" and he doesn't invite her or say bye or something. I just realized I'm more like Dorothy than I thought.
Jixie 08-20-2006 10:49 PM
'Lo Opvines, I wasn't sure if I was explaining it right, but you get what I'm saying. Perhaps it would also be better to say Dorothy is more of a person that Alan. His insanity is always a little over the top, in contrast to Dorothy's quiet subtleties which make her more... more. Real, I guess? Edit: Here is the old thread about this. It's an interesting read and goes into some other stuff about Dorothy/Roger. Hopefully explains better.

quote:
Originally posted by OpVines
I'm pretty sure when I say when you make yourself into a machine, your body no longer grows and you no longer need food. :/


Ah, but. When the body is starving and suffering from malnutrition it will break down muscle and tissue in order to continue functioning. If Alan gets energy from an artificial source and doesn't eat, I don't think his body would still break down from starvation like that. Although it WOULD be ironic considering Duo eats him (not a very nutritious meal, eh?). Maybe he was anorexic before becoming a cyborg Embarrassed Sweatdrop but I kinda doubt it.

~J
The Ghost of Ember 08-20-2006 10:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DorothyFan1 While it's abundantly clear that Dorothy is probably the Director of Paradigm. How? How was it possible for Dorothy to know where the Control Room was while Angel only stumbles onto it?


For one, Angel doesn't stumble on to it. Gordon shows her part of the way after recognizing her as a 'Memory', and she 'flies' the rest, and we're not really certain what that trip involves. Dorothy only shows up in the Control Room when Roger Smith appears there briefly to comfort Angel at the end of all things, and she was behind Roger, which implies she followed him... So, by your logic Roger must be the director, right? The entire scene there seems highly metaphorical to me anyways. Still, it's abundantly clear Angel is the director. Whatever that entails.

quote:
Originally posted by OpVinesThat's a pretty comprehensive analysis Jixie, but I found something I disagree with: "In the end, Dorothy is more human that Alan is." Literally, Alan is more human than Dorothy, being once human and having a mind of his own, while Dorothy is ruled by the memories of her old living self, at least until she develops her own.


This begs two questions: One, what is human? Two, is Dorothy really ruled by the memories of the human Dorothy Wayneright?

In regards to question one, yes, Dorothy is not physically human. But I find it interesting that in Big O, when Eugene shows Dorothy his “creations” Dorothy responds: “Human, all of these creatures are human.” Not ‘were’ human, are. Interesting distinction when they’ve been completely altered, far beyond what Alan ever accomplishes.

As regards to the second, I’ve got to say I thought this was laid to rest when Dorothy pulled a Lazarus on us after her memory core was removed. Dorothy seemed confused at first, but it became abundantly clear that even without the memories of the Dorothy Wayneright the human she could still function and had her own personality. In fact, I daresay that the only time we see Dorothy ‘ruled’ by the memories of the dead girl is when she is around her father during the nightingale sequence, which is the only point in the series that she does not act like, well, Dorothy.
OpVines 08-21-2006 05:57 AM
"Perhaps it would also be better to say Dorothy is more of a person that Alan."

A "person" isn't a human being who shows compassion. A "person" is a human being who is... a human being. Being murderous, deceitful, powerhungry, and all those pretty things doesn't make someone less of a person.

"In fact, I daresay that the only time we see Dorothy ‘ruled’ by the memories of the dead girl is when she is around her father during the nightingale sequence, which is the only point in the series that she does not act like, well, Dorothy."

So you're saying R. Dorothy developed her memories and individualism within the first few minutes she meets Roger, even though her implanted memories had a span of about 18 years? She develops her own memories throughout the show while she spends time with Roger. 18 years of memories that were hard-coded into you don't just disappear because you meet someone for a few minutes.
Nine Kuze 08-21-2006 04:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OpVines
18 years of memories that were hard-coded into you don't just disappear because you meet someone for a few minutes.

They do if that certain someone IS Roger Smith. Pleased \

EDIT: I hope you do realize I was kiddin' about that statement.
Peace.
Tsukaggin 08-21-2006 04:15 PM
What makes a person is really more a matter of philosophy and opinion. For example, a human, and a person, are two different things in my opinion. In my opinion Alan is not not a person. But the key phrase is in my opinion. No one is qualified to make the final call on what is a person. It's all speculatory opinion.

Now, Dorothy's memories where on a CD I understood, not hard coded. BUT that's moot, as, yes, meeting a person can drastically change your perspective on life, depending on the events that took place. Dorothy probably wasn't changed within a few minutes, but I think after the events of episode one, she would probably have been re-evaluating some things, if it weren't for one simple fact.

Dorothy is the ultimate example of not being ruled by memories.

Though she has the memories of the human Dorothy, it is quite clear that she is aware she is an android from the begging. She can step out of those memories easily. In fact I dare say the only time she ever uses those memories as if they where her own, basing decisions and reactions off them, is when she's around her "Father". The rest of the time she shows no relation to the Human Dorothy or her memories. Where she in any way bound to the human Dorothy's memories, she would act human twenty-four seven, rather then only when around her father. There are, in effect, two Dorothy's. The android, and the facade she presents to her "father" based off of the memories. So the Dorothy we know is her own entity from the get-go.

-Tsukaggin
OpVines 08-21-2006 05:39 PM
"#1 A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
#2 An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
#3 The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
#4 The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person.
#5 Physique and general appearance.
#6 Law. A human or organization with legal rights and duties" (Dictionary.com)

Take your pick. The definition of "person" is not subjective or opinionated. A human does equal a person. Therefore, Alan is a person.

In all honesty, we haven't seen the real Dorothy's behavior so it would be farfetched to debate whether or not R. Dorothy acts like her. She acts differently around her father, but who's to say that the real Dorothy didn't act differently around other people too.

However, I believe it's even more farfetched that someone redefine everything about themselves in such a short period of time, especially when they are an android.

And isn't it the human ability to adapt and change so well that makes them able to survive as long as they have? I believe even R. Dorothy's change stem from the memories of her old self.

"Though she has the memories of the human Dorothy, it is quite clear that she is aware she is an android from the begging. She can step out of those memories easily."

I'm confused at where the link between 1 and 2 connect to 3. That sounds more like an assumption than actual fact. You can't just get rid of your memories, you can ignore them, hide them, forget them, and bury them in your subconscious, but ultimately they're always there and will always have the same foundation on your personality.

I'm still puzzled over your notion that self identity equals free will. How is it she's not influenced by her memories just because she knows she's a robot?