A theory, not a good one...

Robot7290 07-22-2006 02:11 AM
I've just been having with one theory on Big O. Nothing new, I just wanted to know all of your takes on it so I can get a better perspective on Big O itself.

The whole storyline of paradigm city, starting from the event 40 years ago to Big Venus and Big O walking into each other (or whatever you want to call it) continuously resets itself. I think that this whole story starts and stop and starts and stops going over and over again, except in each one, when Alex throws Roger off into the sea, Roger lets Big O stick the needles into his back (again, whatever you want to call it) and then Roger fails the negotiations between Angel and himself. Starts over.

Now why do I think this keeps happening? Maybe Dorothy isn't there, or Roger never meets Dorothy, or Dorothy does not ask Roger for protection.

Why I think the one story of Big O we see (where Roger completes negotiations) is different is because of Dorothy. And what sparked Dorothy to meet Roger or whatever, I have no idea what it is. Just some unknow catalyst that made this time DIFFERENT.

And I think Schwartzvald is one of the assembly line Rogers who "somehow" did not manage to get erased (or destroyed, reset). My guess is that he hid underground. I truly think that Schwarztvald is another Roger is because of the clothes he wears. His build (V chest, long legs, feet) is very similar to Roger's. Also the similarities in Roger the Wanderer... you guys have probably heard it all before.


So there it is. If you guys instantly prove me wrong, I'd love to hear that. This is my current theroy, and I'm always open to having this one be replaced with someone else's explanation of the play The Big O.
Shadow dorothy 07-22-2006 10:56 PM
No that threoy is new but it's a new twist to some of the others I've heard.
Robot7290 07-23-2006 12:07 AM
Thanks. I've just been playing through the episodes over and over again and... yeah.
Shadow dorothy 07-23-2006 11:52 AM
Well this one makes the most sence so far.
Robot7290 07-24-2006 12:51 PM
Really. Well, thanks. I never thought it was any good compared to the ones DorothyFan and a bunch of you other guys pumped out. But, yeah, thanks. Big Grin
Paradigm Dog 07-27-2006 02:21 AM
Pretty good theory. Some similar ones have bounced around these boards over the years, but you put it very simply. However, I question whether negotiations were 100% successful. Too bad Season 3 is in limbo.

I want to say the Schwarzwald=Roger is one I haven't heard much, if at all--very cool. On that note, it hit me that "Roger the military pilot" who we see drown/dead in ACT 26 seems to be missing his left eye, and Schwarzwald AND Norman are both missing their left eye! Wow. Maybe other characters are failed Rogers? Or, maybe its an artistic coincedence...





Again, Season 3 is needed.
Chitter-Box-Kat 07-27-2006 02:30 AM
Here here! I'll toast to that! ^=^ We need a season three. It's just not fair. And BTW Roboto, interesting theory. I myself lack the patience and mental capacity to come up with such complicated trains of thought when it comes to anime.
Big Jauln 07-27-2006 05:24 PM
It's a good theory, but like Paradigm Dog said, we need Season 3. (...yeah, and maybe if everyone keeps making up new theories they will either get annoyed or finally want to answer these questions and create season 3)
(No offense to people this is insulting.)
Shadow dorothy 07-27-2006 05:40 PM
I heard rumors of a season 3, like some fans are going to create their own verions and animete them others say that Bandai is thinking about it.

Robot7290 there is now a theory similar to yours I found whlie at Yahoo looking for fanfic's it was around page 9 but your theory was a first, and thats pretty cool.
Robot7290 07-27-2006 05:51 PM
Hmm... Norman as an older Roger... Half of my sees the coincedence, and the other half loves Norman too much to have this happen. Truly, I think that the eyepatch or Norman is there to break the "delicate" stereotype of the English Butler type that he is. Norman has always been the machine-gun toting, kickass butler/mechanic that hes always been, and although I do see the similarities with all the eyes (as in an earlier thread), I still think Norman is a seperate character.

Then, onto the Dead Pilot Roger. Yeah, that could totally be Schwarzvald. Think of it, in that scene he isn't dead for what we can see), he just APPEARS dead. What if that is Schwarzvald? I can totally see the whole glass lens eye thing.
The Ghost of Ember 07-28-2006 12:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robot7290Why I think the one story of Big O we see (where Roger completes negotiations) is different is because of Dorothy. And what sparked Dorothy to meet Roger or whatever, I have no idea what it is. Just some unknow catalyst that made this time DIFFERENT.


Interesting proposition, care to back it up with some evidence? So far I've seen little to show that this latest reset is any more special than the last one, or at least nothing to do with Roger meeting Dorothy. In fact, that Roger seems to recognize Dorothy in the first episode and the whole "Since you came to live here, I feel like I've known you forever." both seem to imply that Roger and Dorothy have been meeting up for every Paradigm Shift/Event.

quote:
Originally posted by Paradigm Dog
I want to say the Schwarzwald=Roger is one I haven't heard much, if at all--very cool.


Is it really so rare? I know it's been proposed at least twice

quote:
Originally posted by Paradigm DogSchwarzwald AND Norman are both missing their left eye! Wow. Maybe other characters are failed Rogers? Or, maybe its an artistic coincedence...


Unfortunately it doesn't work. Crispy still has a left eye, he just wears the mask 'cause it looks trippin'.



I fail to see why people put so much damn significance on the Dead Pilot Roger, I mean he only show up briefly in a montage that seems to imply Paradigm has gone through multiple events. He could have been the first Roger, or the tenth, or the thousandth. If any Roger has survived into the current story, it's the one who was hired by Gordon, who has a left eye! Seriously!

As far as Norman is concerned, I've seen little to no evidence that he is a former Roger other than the knee-jerk "OMG, DEAD PILOT ROGER HAS A SHaDoW Iye, HE MUST BE NORMAN!"

...

Yeah.
Shadow dorothy 07-28-2006 12:28 PM
This is begining to make more and more sence.
Robot7290 07-29-2006 02:46 AM
You are correct that there is little proof that this one is different. Of course, my theory is just a theory, but there isn't any evidence to the contrary either, and this one seems to sit square with me the best. Some "proof" I did manage to dig up that this time was different:

Roger CHANGED his role. If he failed his negotiations, he would not have changed.

That is the big defining thing for me, right there. Roger chose not to become one with Big O, and thus changed his role from what Angel had set for him to his own choice, free from the vice of striving over memories. Remember, memories were the center of Angel's life. She always wanted them. Roger never cared about memories, he just wanted to live his life and protect innocents with the Big O, which is part of Roger's character, understanding and compassion for others, which is shows by his manners. He negotiated with Angel, and he chose to not be ruled by his memories. I'm not sure if Angel adapted this mindset, but it's my best guess that she did.
Mrs. Beck 07-29-2006 03:39 PM
I like the theory you have about Schwartzwald being one of the past Rogers - I've heard it mentioned before once or twice, but you've got some good points in there. However, The Ghost of Ember also has some pretty darned good counter-points. *shrugs* I dunno, it's a shaky theory - but alot of 'em are. It's a good one.

As for Dorothy being the missing peice, I'm going to have to say I doubt that's the case. As The Ghost of Ember has already pointed out, they make it pretty clear in Ep. 1 that the two probably knew each other in the past re-sets.

But I'm still impressed, Robot7290, not that it really matters much. I personally find it hard to put my theories to the test of the PCF-members' judgement. So hey, nice work on the super-sleuthin' (sp?).
Big Jauln 07-29-2006 07:17 PM
If Schwartzwald was maybe was a failed Roger, then who else was 1?
DorothyFan1 07-29-2006 10:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robot7290
You are correct that there is little proof that this one is different. Of course, my theory is just a theory, but there isn't any evidence to the contrary either, and this one seems to sit square with me the best. Some "proof" I did manage to dig up that this time was different:

Roger CHANGED his role. If he failed his negotiations, he would not have changed.

That is the big defining thing for me, right there. Roger chose not to become one with Big O, and thus changed his role from what Angel had set for him to his own choice, free from the vice of striving over memories. Remember, memories were the center of Angel's life. She always wanted them. Roger never cared about memories, he just wanted to live his life and protect innocents with the Big O, which is part of Roger's character, understanding and compassion for others, which is shows by his manners. He negotiated with Angel, and he chose to not be ruled by his memories. I'm not sure if Angel adapted this mindset, but it's my best guess that she did.


I posted a long time ago on this one and yes...you're theory ties in with what I speculated a while ago on this issue of Roger changing the Paradigm City resets by making a new choice. Remember...the key scene that really shows it is when Dorothy says "Roger Smith has made his decision", in Act 26. This was a reference to Roger NOT merging with Big O. I commented on this and speculated that this decision by Roger Smith allowed Paradigm to move in a new direction from the past. I also speculated that the images of Roger clones were actually previous Roger Smiths all destroyed in previous Paradigm City scenarios...like the submerged Roger Smith with the left eye missing. However, I never caught on to the possibilility that this particular one was Schwarzwald himself. Very interesting new clue!

Another interesting fact...there is a brief clip showing The Big Three working in tandem before the Reset...and they're all working together...and this tied in with the theory about the Bigs representing the main elements of Air, Water and Earth - Big Duo, Big Fau and finally Big O. I now believe Angel and Dorothy were the true Dominus of Duo and Fau. Big Duo because in "Enemy is another Big" we see Big Duo reaching out after it was decapitated...to the real owner...and in its direction was Rosewater Co and Angel. Big Fau...the colors it has are clearly female (white and pink) and Big Fau's eye colors match Dorothy's.

However...there is currently a debate on who controls Paradigm City. I believe the real controller of Paradigm is R.Dorothy. It has to be because she is the only one who could truely understand Roger's motivations while piloting Big O and she was the one who understood what Roger meant by making that "decision" by not merging with Big O. I don't think it was a coincidence Big O offered to merge with Roger right after we hear Dorothy's voice echoing in the water..."Roger, Roger!" It was Dorothy who was making this offer to Roger Smith - not Big O. She was offering Roger the choice to fight Big Fau by himself. Roger made the correct choice in this Paradigm scenario...changing the outcome of the simulation. It also allowed Dorothy to make the ultimate sacrifice to help Roger defeat Big Fau...she merges with Big O to give Roger the last remaining power he needed to energize the Big O cannon. I also believe the reset was done for two reasons...Big Fau was going to kill Big O with his last shoulder cannon shot and also because even if Big O had succeeded...Roger would have found out the tragic consequences of R.Dorothy's "choice" to merge with Big O.
Big Jauln 07-30-2006 02:07 PM
Does anyone think that there is more than 1 failed Roger charecter?
Shadow dorothy 07-30-2006 07:01 PM
Yeah, and thanks to that factory of Rogers there are proably 100's.