My Schwarzwald Theory… (possible spoiler)

From what we’ve seen of Schwarzwald’s “appearances” in Session 2 (Leviathan, The Big Fight, The War of Paradigm City), it seems safe to say that Schwarzwald was not truly dead until the explosion of Big Duo in The War of Paradigm City. I have a theory that Schwarzwald might even still be a player in the final act of Session 2, and I wanted to hear your feedback.

While watching the end of The Big Fight and seeing Allen Gabriel (it’s odd that he is the second Union member with an angelic name) being smothered by Big Duo’s cables, an idea came to me involving Schwarzwald’s earlier monolog. “The memories are all here.” I believe it was not a ghost of Schwarzwald haunting the Big Duo, but instead, somehow, Schwarzwald’s downloaded memories and consciousness were inside the Megadus.

Allen Gabriel was obviously a cyborg, and one who had a large portion of his head replaced by cybernetics (at least one eye and probably his whole face). If part of his brain has also been replaced, than perhaps Schwarzwald’s consciousness did not follow Big Duo into its death, but instead found a new body by downloaded himself into Gabriel (probably after erasing the twisted little man’s consciousness). It would be quite ironic, what with Gabriel trying to steal Schwarzwald’s “body” (Big Duo), and would go well with Schwarzwald’s belief that those who do not care for the truth are nothing but puppets.

In the beginning of The War of Paradigm City, when Allen Gabriel’s body is ejected in the mass of cables, I couldn’t help but think of a cocoon more than a coffin. Allen is now missing the same eye that Schwarzwald had a glass piece covering, and his pale clown face does resemble Schwarzwald’s masquerade mask in Enemy is Another Big...
I think the artists might be hinting at something.
Or it’s just wishful thought.

Well, don't forget that Schwarzy also told us that a Megadeus uses its Dominus. I think that part of Schwarzwald's being had been inside Big Duo after the first time it showed up, and had been dormant until Duo had a problem with Alan's behavior.


IMO- I think Duo pulled Schwarzwald's "imprint" from its memory when it finally had had enough of Alan's foolishness, espcially after his comment about Duo being his own body(think that kinda pissed Duo and Schwarzwald off a bit) and used what Schwarzwald had left in Duo to verbally communicate to Alan.

I have proposed this theory also and tied it in with a lot of events. You'll find that most people on this forum reject the idea of any memory connection between Schwarzwald and Gabriel. Schwartzy lovers tend to be Gabriel haters and vice versa. (Of course this has nothing to do with whether the connection theory is accurate, only with whether it will be accepted.)

Check out my thread "Another Schwarzwald possession" for some more theories on this guy. Schwarzwald "discussion" also appears in the thread "My biggest problem with Big O"

I also proposed that those bandages already cover a cyborg body. This would mirror the bandaged robot body of Big Duo in episode 12. As we all know Bigs and their pilots tend to mirror one another in actions and appearance... All "Schwartzwald" had to do was take off his bandages, and put on a striped suit, and a snappy hat, and nobody would recognize him.

I had another schwarzvald theory: That in ep 17 when he was wandering in the coney island snow desert, he eventually stumbled upon the edge of the superdome. But then again, how did they find his body ....


DAm schwarzvald, he is beyond reason! But he is as others say: a badass.

Good point.

I had an idea of how Schwarz might have deliberately downloaded himself into Big Duo. He still seemed pretty naive about a Megaduce’s sentience until Big Duo got up by itself and tried to crawl toward the West Dome, so I don’t think Schwarz could have thought of anything as cleaver as downloading his consciousness into Big Duo until after than. Now, we do see Schwarz’s typewriter left for Roger to find in the underground caves (anyone notice it was an old Megaduce Expo show?). Roger was able to sneak down there, and only got caught because Allen and Rosewater happened to be present, why not Schwarzwald? This goes with the theory that Schwarzwald knew he was going to die a head of time, which brings more unsettling questions, especially like why Big Duo crashed into the Super Dome.

I think Big Duo did it to prove the existence of the Super Dome above everyone, but why would Schwarzwald allow it to commit suicide?

Of course, Allen and Rosewater might have been the ones who spread out the fliers and left the typewriter for Roger, but I doubt that.

Dang! Some one has already claimed my theory! From now one, it shall be called the R Trusedale theory, and not the Uber Schwarzwald theory, as it should! (Sob.)

As per Duo commtting suicide- eh...that's kinda iffy there. If it did indeed choose to kill itself, it was because Duo (and maybe Schwarzy too) had found what it had been searching for.



And I think that Duo saw the reasons that Schwarzwald wanted to pilot him as being something that it could fight for as well. They were both outcasts who had the capacity to seek out the truth (Schwarzwald could learn from other humans, Duo could fly past the cloud cover and see the rafters/lights above).


That is why I think Duo killed Alan- Alan was only fighting to destroy Big O/Roger. Schwarzwald and Duo, however, were in the mindset that they were fighting the corruption of the city and fighting to learn the truth, Roger just happened to look as though he was fighting FOR Paradigm.

quote:

Originally posted by Uber Schwarzwald Dang! Some one has already claimed my theory! From now one, it shall be called the R Trusedale theory, and not the Uber Schwarzwald theory, as it should! (Sob.)

Feel free to adapt or modify to suit yourself. As I said, it's not a popular theory, so there is plenty of blame to go around!

Yes, I definitely agree that Big Duo approved of Schwarzwald’s ideals. Big Duo does seem to be originally an enemy Megadus sent to destroy Paradigm, but was never launched from it’s hanger (Leviathan).

I really like the idea that Schwarzwald might have been an android all this time, but would fire have hurt him then?

And about the suicide theory. I just don’t see Big Duo accidentally hitting a very obvious stage light. Especially after it was able to dexterously stop drilling Big O, restrain Allen, and then launch itself into the sky. Suicide, or “a kamikaze attack against the cruel world stage” is the only thing that makes any sense to me about its’ death.

Till the scarecrow returns!

quote:

Originally posted by Uber Schwarzwald Good point. I had an idea of how Schwarz might have deliberately downloaded himself into Big Duo. He still seemed pretty naive about a Megaduce’s sentience until Big Duo got up by itself and tried to crawl toward the West Dome, so I don’t think Schwarz could have thought of anything as cleaver as downloading his consciousness into Big Duo until after than. Now, we do see Schwarz’s typewriter left for Roger to find in the underground caves (anyone notice it was an old Megaduce Expo show?). Roger was able to sneak down there, and only got caught because Allen and Rosewater happened to be present, why not Schwarzwald? This goes with the theory that Schwarzwald knew he was going to die a head of time, which brings more unsettling questions, especially like why Big Duo crashed into the Super Dome. I think Big Duo did it to prove the existence of the Super Dome above everyone, but why would Schwarzwald allow it to commit suicide? Of course, Allen and Rosewater might have been the ones who spread out the fliers and left the typewriter for Roger, but I doubt that.

Schwartzwald was commiting suicide. He had downloaded part of himself into Alan, and the result was not a Truth seeker, but a psychotic killer. That experiment was a failure, so all that was left was riding around in a busted up megadeuce. He decided to end it all with one last stab at the truth....flew up to the superdome.....kaboom.
And a nice note was sent to Roger (I'm really dead now, bye!)

quote:

Originally posted by Uber Schwarzwald Yes, I definitely agree that Big Duo approved of Schwarzwald’s ideals. Big Duo does seem to be originally an enemy Megadus sent to destroy Paradigm, but was never launched from it’s hanger (Leviathan). I really like the idea that Schwarzwald might have been an android all this time, but would fire have hurt him then? And about the suicide theory. I just don’t see Big Duo accidentally hitting a very obvious stage light. Especially after it was able to dexterously stop drilling Big O, restrain Allen, and then launch itself into the sky. Suicide, or “a kamikaze attack against the cruel world stage” is the only thing that makes any sense to me about its’ death. Till the scarecrow returns!

Well yes, he still had some human flesh, just look around his right eye. The fire would hurt him even if it couldn't kill him. And losing some of the last bits of his humanity might also hurt him emotionally.

R Trusedale
“Schwartzwald was commiting suicide. He had downloaded part of himself into Alan, and the result was not a Truth seeker, but a psychotic killer. That experiment was a failure, so all that was left was riding around in a busted up megadeuce. He decided to end it all with one last stab at the truth....flew up to the superdome.....kaboom.
And a nice note was sent to Roger (I'm really dead now, bye!)”

Oh, so you believe that Schwarzwald was a part of Allen from the beginning! Got’chya. I’m going more with the idea that Allen and Schwarz are separate people until The Big Fight, with Schwarzwald downloading his consciousness into Allen’s cybernetic parts.

If I’m right, it might be funny if Allen’s personality is still in there with Schwarz’s.

“Well yes, he still had some human flesh, just look around his right eye. The fire would hurt him even if it couldn't kill him. And losing some of the last bits of his humanity might also hurt him emotionally.”

But I was going with the idea that Schwarz might have been a full android. As far as I can tell, Dorothy does not have any human flesh. That is why her skin looks so unreal. That was as close to realistic flesh they could get. That was also why I always that Allen’s pale face meant that it was an artificial replacement as well as his hand.

quote:

Originally posted by Uber Schwarzwald R Trusedale “Schwartzwald was commiting suicide. He had downloaded part of himself into Alan, and the result was not a Truth seeker, but a psychotic killer. That experiment was a failure, so all that was left was riding around in a busted up megadeuce. He decided to end it all with one last stab at the truth....flew up to the superdome.....kaboom. And a nice note was sent to Roger (I'm really dead now, bye!)” Oh, so you believe that Schwarzwald was a part of Allen from the beginning! Got’chya. I’m going more with the idea that Allen and Schwarz are separate people until The Big Fight, with Schwarzwald downloading his consciousness into Allen’s cybernetic parts. If I’m right, it might be funny if Allen’s personality is still in there with Schwarz’s. “Well yes, he still had some human flesh, just look around his right eye. The fire would hurt him even if it couldn't kill him. And losing some of the last bits of his humanity might also hurt him emotionally.” But I was going with the idea that Schwarz might have been a full android. As far as I can tell, Dorothy does not have any human flesh. That is why her skin looks so unreal. That was as close to realistic flesh they could get. That was also why I always that Allen’s pale face meant that it was an artificial replacement as well as his hand.

I don't think Dorothy was as realistic as they can get.

spoiler (highlight to read):

Big Ear was more realistic.

If Crispy was always a full android as you say, then you still have to explain why fire would make him scream. My theory was that Schwarzwald was a cyborg with human flesh, ala Terminator. He suffered some flesh damage during his research and taped himself together, also like Terminator. Later he lost nearly all his human flesh and covered his skinny cyborg skeleton (like Terminator) with a striped suit (ahah NOT like Terminator )

Other evidence is mostly negative. What was Alan before he sprang into the show one day? Why was Alan on the point of backstabbing (backdrilling) Alex one time and what made him stop? Various Big O villains appear together in the show, but Crispy and Skinny never do. (Hey how come we never see Clark Kent and Superman together? Could it be?...)

This one is for Gabriel Fans. By now you've all see the scene where Alan's skinny body is spit out by Big Duo/Schwarzwald as it nears the superdome. Suppose Alan was dropped over water? He might still be alive...
Remember Alan is a cyborg. These critters are harder to kill than mere humans. And several humans have survived high altitude falls into the ocean. Generally what kills humans in these falls is spleen rupture. No spleen, no rupture.
What about before Alan was spit out? Most people suppose he was crushed, although its hard to see how you would do that with a pile of wires. Again he's a cyborg. As long as his braincase wasn't crushed, it wouldn't matter even if his body was completely bent out of recognition. And his braincase would probably be as protected as possible.
He might still be alive. Physically messed up no doubt, but alive.

Some of these Schwarzwald/Gabriel theories are very interesting, but I don't really see a lot of support for them.

From how I saw it, Duo's ascension to the superdomes served two purposes. The practical purpose is the fact that the explosion of the first light caused the others to begin to fall. Schwarzwald promised in Enemy is Another Big that he "would shatter these false ceilings they called domes, and make people see the truth."

The second purpose is more metaphorical and can be debated. Schwarzwald/Duo were going towards the "light", the truth. Essentially, I saw it as ascension to heaven. Dropping Gabriel was the symbolic act of discarding the corrupt nature to embrace something better.

The reason why Schwarzwald's ghost showed up is because he and Duo are as connected as Roger is to Big O. Schwarzwald101 summed it up very well already.

quote:

Originally posted by Danial Some of these Schwarzwald/Gabriel theories are very interesting, but I don't really see a lot of support for them. .

I agree,there hasent been much shwartzfald in any episodes (only a few.)

OK, I just had an idea about what Schwarzwald said.
Maybe the Bigs are the directors.
He said that they created the world. Maybe the Bigs are the ones running the show, and it has gotten out of hand. Duo may have committed suicide because it was tired of playing games with the other Bigs, it could have felt bad for Schwarzwald and realized what they were doing to the poor people of the city.

quote:

Originally posted by Danial Some of these Schwarzwald/Gabriel theories are very interesting, but I don't really see a lot of support for them. From how I saw it, Duo's ascension to the superdomes served two purposes. The practical purpose is the fact that the explosion of the first light caused the others to begin to fall. Schwarzwald promised in Enemy is Another Big that he "would shatter these false ceilings they called domes, and make people see the truth." The second purpose is more metaphorical and can be debated. Schwarzwald/Duo were going towards the "light", the truth. Essentially, I saw it as ascension to heaven. Dropping Gabriel was the symbolic act of discarding the corrupt nature to embrace something better. The reason why Schwarzwald's ghost showed up is because he and Duo are as connected as Roger is to Big O. Schwarzwald101 summed it up very well already.

I must speak up about this. (I know I usually do )
Lights were already falling before Duo crashed into one. The best candidates for the first cause of skyfall is Vera's big signal rockets. Either they were powerful enough to reach the skydome and damage it, or they were too weak and fell back to Paradigm. Either way they make a bang. (And to be realistic, you have to account for what became of those rockets anyway.)
Symbolic quest for heaven? Is this how Schwarzwald would view it? Isn't this the guy who wanted to break through all the illusions? And who already knew the sky held abandoned equipment and not gods? Dropping Gabriel to embrace something better? And the next thing he "embraced" was a skylight, and his death. A symbolic quest is totally out of character for Schwarzwald as he was described in the show.

Reviewing my previous posts, I see a need to restate my theory to distinguish it from previous theories and to clarify previous statements.

The Schwarzwald’s Puppet Theory:
The theory assumes that Schwarzwald’s presence in the remolded Big Duo is not a supernatural ghost, but a “Ghost in the Machine,” i.e. his stored memories and consciousness resting inside Big Duo. The possible “how” will follow this. At the end of The Big Fight, when Allen Gabriel is assaulted and smothered under the Big Duo’s interface cables, I theorize that the intention was not to kill Allen (Big Duo could have does that easily with it’s blades), but to restrain him, allowing for Schwarzwald’s consciousness and memories to be downloaded into Gabriel’s body through his cybernetic interfaces. Whether Schwarzwald in stored inside Gabriel’s brain or a possible cybernetic part of his brain is not important. Only the result matters, that Schwarzwald body snatches Allen’s body. The visual of Allen’s body being vomited from Big Duo’s cockpit in a ball of wires resembles a cocoon. The surrounding wires could serve as a safety cushion for the impact down below.

Gabriel fits Schwarzwald’s definition of a puppet. He has sold out the Union and it’s main goal of memory gathering. He has willingly and unwillingly allowed Alex to manipulate him several times just to be made into one of the “dolls” he loves to slay and for more opportunities for murder. He also resembled a puppet, and when his body is ejected from Big Duo, the severing interface cables look like a puppet’s strings being cut (symbolizing Schwarzwald’s new freedom in a new body as well as freedom from ignorance?). Yeah, I know that’s reading into a visual, but this is a session were being shown a tomato means you’re really a clone, and seeing a blue flower’s petals being plucked means you’re receiving a death threat. These little details make it a more thematic plot development and appropriate for the two characters.

The prime reason for this theory is that I just have a hard time believing that the writers would build up on the mystery of Schwarzwald being alive or dead just to have him blowup in a cut scene. I hope they have more in mind, like explaining how he died, why his mind was in Big Duo, and what exactly he discovered. He is also a fascinating character, and killing him off so offhandedly, like a second thought, is extremely wasteful, bad writing.

A Note to those Allen Gabriel fans; this theory does not preclude the possibility of Allen Gabriel retaining his original personality under Schwarzwald’s control (and a subsequent battle of wills between the two).

The “How” & “When” Theory:
I just like to keep this separate from the Puppet Theory as it relies more on conjecture. Schwarzwald is not a mad scientist, so it is unlikely he could have thought of a way to do this on his own. He also seemed sill naïve about a Megadues consciousness until after the Big Duo battle with Roger, so it is unlikely that he would have thought he could store his own consciousness in a Big until after that, when Big Duo was in Alex Rosewater’s custody. These are the two questions that must be answered for the Puppet Theory to make any sense.

How?
Schwarzwald is not a scientist, but he is a finder of old memories. If someone else was able to recall it, he could discover how. Gordon Rosewater has succeeded in transferring the memories of others into his latter batch of “tomatoes.” If he was also responsible for Rodger Smith’s memories, than he seems to also know how to retain and transfer the memories and personality of a dead man into a new body. Dr. Wanewrite also seems to have somehow been able to transfer some of the memories and personality of his late daughter into an android. This is possible in this setting, and it is a possibility that this was one of the latter discoveries Schwarzwald found before his death.

When?
Roger finds Schwarzwald’s typewriter in the underground tunnels before stumbling upon Big Due and Big Fau. If Schwarzwald was the one who left it there for Roger, than he still had access to the tunnels and could have snuck in there after Alex confiscated Big Duo to download himself into the Megadus. This is a bit of conjecture, seeing as how we are not sure how Schwarzwald distributed his fliers after his death. I suspect he might have hired someone ahead of time to do it, just in case, like how he arranged for his last letter to be sent to Roger.

“Robot” Theory:
I was a little confusing in my posts about this one. I do not think Schwarzwald is an android or cyborg. It just liked the idea of him being one, as the idea of a Megadus pilot turning out to be an Android seems interesting to me and would be a funny revelation. I do not see any evidence to support this idea, though, and doubt it could be true. The only conjecture for it is the way Schwarzwald survives 3rd degree burns all over his body, twice, with no medical aid, but Vera has survived a gunshot wound to the gut and an explosion, so it might just be dramatic editing on the part of the writers.

I've been in college too long...