Roger/Alex are the Yin/Yang of Paradigm...+ My promised BIG new theory (biblical resets, etc)!

People were complaining there's nothing new on this forum...that everything's been talked about. Here's new, revisited, and also newly spinned additions that make great reads. Enjoy and let's have fun discussing once again.

There is a lot of world religion/ideology symbolism hidden both visually as well as verbally. Rewatching the series AGAIN (beats me how many times. lol), I picked up on a lot more. But one thing I wanted to point out right away here that is very interesting--the strong, blatant Yin and the Yang symbolism.




Notice that they box off this scene oddly, as if to focus on something. This building is very curious. But here's what's more important, Roger, in Black, is the dot inside the shining white, while Alex is the white dot within the shadowy black. It makes the Yin-Yang symbol. Each has a little of its opposite within them to maintain balance.

From dictionary.com:
"the interaction of yin and yang maintains the harmony of the universe"

Isn't this, in effect, what Rosewater says in this scene. That they are the stars of the stage of Paradigm City, without either one of them, Paradigm cannot exist, its show cannot go on. Somehow, strangely, the two of them bring balance to Paradigm. This is purposely put in, its not mistake, otherwise the shadows wouldn't have cut off so solidly and the down-shot angle wouldn't have been chosen. Any thoughts how this plays into the grand scheme? ...I've got some coming up later in the post...

dictionary.com: "yin and yang together produce everything that comes into existence"

Yin-Yang doesn't normally symbolize good vs evil in any case as far as I've learned over the years...and yet there is a polorizing here. It makes me wonder...

The theory I've been promising--Paradigm's current existence is such: Man continued its destructive ways and eventually destroyed itself. God has given mankind a second chance however yet again. RESETS. There have been RESETS in our Biblical history: Noah's Flood, Sodom and Gamorra, etc. All times in history (biblical etc) that God ended up having to RESET the world so that it might begin anew and learn not to make its self-destructive mistakes.

The reason Paradigm's people disappear and reappear is because they are souls that have been allowed to participate on a physical plain (metaphoric stage) again (Roger seeing those ghostly figures in ACT 4, including his mother, in the underground may be a reference to the spiritual aspect). One of the times, or the first time this was set up, Gordon Rosewater (devinely inspired) acted like Moses, delivering the people from the Desert into the Paradigm (ideal) City ("Forty years in the Desert" connects with 40 years ago everyone lost their memories).
Then later he became a John, writing Revelations in the form of Metropolis to warn mankind about its misdeeds of the past. He is a primary messenger of God, or acts as God's voice in Paradigm...a burning bush if you will of the Old Testament (HE HAS THE TREE OF LIFE IN HIS BACKYARD FOR PETE'S SAKE! -on Ailesberry).

Problem is, mankind still keeps making the same mistakes and it all plays out as a devine comedy of sorts. I believe there was pressure put on Alex Rosewater to be one who would be a choice tomato, a choice soul reincarnate, to help lead the people toward righteousness. But he fell astray for his own, devilish ambitions of usurping the Creator and he became a devil. Notice that Fau initially accepts him, but then rejects him after it realizes his darkness. He perhaps was meant to even be a proper Apocolypse White Horseman war general with Fau, but failed to make the cut because of his choices. Additionally, there is a scene after he allegedly kills his father where he is in that same room with the hole in the roof shown above, but it is all dark and he is crying. He cannot reach the light above. And behind him are abstract angel wings created by the windows, as if he is a fallen angel in hell by the camera angle--watch it and see! Additionally, he burns the symbolic TREE OF LIFE at ailesberry.

Thus, somehow the fate of Paradigm rests in 3 individuals. ROGER, DOROTHY, and ANGEL. They apparently are the ONLY ONES who can make a difference in Paradigm. Because in HYDRA, they are the only ones standing the rain without an umbrella, and Roger said, that's what it means to live free and have choices. They are the only ones with the free will to stop the Paradigm sim and allow mankind to continue...whether that means Paradise, or going back to Earth. Perhaps the Kingdom on Earth. Hmm.

Paradigm only exists while the Yin and Yang, a balance of harmony of good and evil, protection and destruction play out. When the darker half is removed from PARADIGM, the city will cease to exist and the simulation will succeed. Mankind cannot destroy itself in the process though, or the balance is not made and the whole thing fails.

Roger has been chosen to be the Savior role by the Creator, (a Creator who only Gordon Rosewater agknowledges in ACT 26...and its not the same thing as Angel). Roger is chosen because he has lived in many of the roles and knows what all the castes of society, poor to rich, are like. Also explains all the crosses in the series with Roger.
Roger on the cross in shadow, body, or near it (a few of many...):




--the white stripe on his tie combined with his outstretched arms make a cross as well.

There are many other crosses (some abstract) in the series related to the megadeus and roger, but I don't need to point too many of them out. Final Stage itself is sort of a cross, and has three slashes in it as if for the trinity perhaps even. 3 is a sacred number.

one that is off Roger, but still has the cross:


Dorothy is the Holy Spirit role. She comes to him in ACT 2 and CHOOSES him. It's like when the dove descended upon Jesus at that baptism and announces him.

Angel acts as the symbolic angel of death it seems. The Creator/God sends her when the life simulation fails and needs to start over again through big Venus. Must go to that accursed floor to act as a destroyer for a bit.

The Creator that Gordon talks about is not Angel. It is someone we have not met, and likely won't meet. It's God.

Schwarzwald, Big Ear, Daustan, and others cannot effect mankind directly, but act as the strengtheners that Jesus meets along the way, like the spirits of Elisha and Moses on the mountain near his crucifixion that peter wants to make tents for, and John the Baptist, etc. They strengthen Roger in various ways for his great task.

Alan was added because he is loyal to no one and one who takes pleasure in pain and darkness. He is the embodyment of why things go wrong in the world. He acts as the purest demon basically.

The biblical references don't stop with this. I don't need to name them all, but Leviathan, Behemoth, Heaven's Day ("God's Son was born"), "...better the closer you are to Heaven's Gate", Angels, Fallen Angel, Stars falling from the heavens, Revelations, mark of the beast, 3 Ball in the pocket in Pool many times, 4 BIGs/4 Horseman colors, Instro playing in churches (he didn't have to), good deal of churches, 3 foreign megadeus gifts/3 foreign wisemen gifts, "ashes to ashes, dust to dust",etc etc. We got hit over the head with religious symbolism, especially related to Christianity and Judaism...but also Eastern tradition was mixed in with Yin-Yang and who knows what else.

I know people have talked about the Bibile's connections a lot in the past, I just thought I'd make them more concise and put in the possible new Biblical findings. The way its presented, its new i think. Deep.

Thoughts?

PS-

Additionally, there seems to be strong connections to the following which mix together with the religious background to makeup BIG-O's foundations. (Not sure to what level they are significant, but they possibly each played a role in the formation of the story of BIG-O).

-WIZARD OF OZ (see The Yellow Brick Road radio drama of BIG-O by the writers--also demonstrated by Vera's statement to Angel: "there's no place like home")

-old Metropolis movie by Fritz Lang. The Underground, evil double robot, etc is here.

-I, Robot displays the rules of androids.

-the book God Bless you Mr. Rosewater--possibly where the concept of using the name Rosewater for a rich leader began.

I enjoyed reading this.
It recognizes the effort of the writers at creating an aura around the persona of Roger Smith as a type of "savior".
It might even explain some of the almost religious like fervor which fans have for this anime, at least on a subconscious level.

Indeed there's a lot of interesting religious symbolism in Big-O, but it was put there to "season" the acts not to create a Book of Acts.

I think that if we read into it too far there's the possibility of actually defeating the writers intentions.

For example, I could go into a bizarre dissertation on how Big-O is actually a metaphor for the human orgasm and how the "Final Stage was the "penis" of the heart, symbolic of the Father's Legacy which all but destroyed Alex’ Oedipus complex.

More accurately I could say that Roger in a megadeus represents Saint George in armor slaying the dragon, and that Dorothy is the sacred virgin he is protecting.

Or if I really wanted to open a can of worms I could descend into the bowels of the beast and make the very worst comparison yet; which is the one which brings a throng of arm chair theologians out from under their goddamned rocks, and that is the dreaded comparison of Big Venus to Lucifer-- an embarrassing and whacked out exegesis picked at to the very F’n bone which only serves to make the followers of this series look more like cultic whack jobs than it has ever served to illuminate.



Most of the religious symbolism in Big-O is at best meant to be superficial and wasn't really intended to be expounded upon and placed into a concordance.

Having said that, we should all try to bear in mind that it is an art to bring religious symbolism into any entertainment work to qualify the “righteousness” of the hero, but to read too much into it serves more to cloud the issue than to clarify it.

Remember this is a story of Paradigm City, not Narnia.

quote:

Originally posted by Son_of_Horus Or if I really wanted to open a can of worms I could descend into the bowels of the beast and make the very worst comparison yet; which is the one which brings a throng of arm chair theologians out from under their goddamned rocks, and that is the dreaded comparison of Big Venus to Lucifer-- an embarrassing and whacked out exegesis picked at to the very F’n bone which only serves to make the followers of this series look more like cultic whack jobs than it has ever served to illuminate.

...


It is in the art book, you know.

...


Bang up job, Paradigm Dog. While religious symbolism isn't really my cup of tea, I do enjoy your theories and must note they have much truth to them. I noticed the Black/White thing before, but didn't notice the extent to which it followed the pattern, i.e. Roger being the black dot. Very cool.

It'll be interesting to see what you think of my fanfic. Unfortunately it has a long way to go, but I'll be curious to see what everyone thinks of it. It's an odd idea. I just hope that when we do see the Final Act, which it almost seems inevitable now that the series will go on, that the creators completely freak us out. But in a good way.

I'm trying to cram every possible question into my fic, and so far, I'm very close. T'will be interesting...

quote:

Originally posted by Paradigm Dog 3 foreign megadeus gifts/3 foreign wisemen gifts.

But of the 3 gifts from the wisemen, one of the horsemen was not created. Inless your going to say that the three wisemen recognizing jesus as the lord was to lead to the creation of one of the four horsemen.

I will come back to this I have to log off right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Money quote: Originally posted by Son_of_Horus Or if I really wanted to open a can of worms I could descend into the bowels of the beast and make the very worst comparison yet; which is the one which brings a throng of arm chair theologians out from under their goddamned rocks, and that is the dreaded comparison of Big Venus to Lucifer-- an embarrassing and whacked out exegesis picked at to the very F’n bone which only serves to make the followers of this series look more like cultic whack jobs than it has ever served to illuminate. ... It is in the art book, you know.

Really?
I have the art companion as well.
Would you care to quote the passage that declares that Big Venus represents a "Satanic" archetype according to the Judaeo/Christian belief system?
Because I don't see it.

And yet why is it that everyone seems to "parrot" as if it's fact that the writers were using that comparison?

I would say it's because no one actually read the passage.
Much like the brain deads on AS who thought we were saying that the network was phasing out anime, yet refused to actually read what was posted.

The passage in the art book was an allegory.
And it was a VERY, very unfortunate choice of words.

But no where, absolutely no where is it possible, even if you reached deeply with your entire forearm into Mr. Goatse large intestine...
No where can a doctrinal comparison be drawn out where Big-Venus represents:

1. A fallen angel who puppeted a snake which deceived mankind and brought sin into the world, who incredulously is supposed to possess a JEW who is supposed to deceive the nations and bring in a seven year tribulation period the likes of which this world has never seen.

or

2. A roman god.

or

3. The Hebrew version, which is the most sensible, thank G-D!
Which simply uses it to reference the King of Babylon, or the world system.

So to use the reference in a canonical sense is WRONG
People make mistakes!
Just like the way the word "Nightingale" is misspelled as "NightEngale" or as the word Pero was used instead of Pierrot, or as Angel appears on a painting in Mr. Wise's house as his very dead departed wife!

It literally sends me into paroxysms of rage to hear this stupid inane ridiculous incorrect comparison expounded upon by unqualified people who either grew up in households where religious zealotry masqueraded as parenting or people who have miraculously transformed into sandal wearing charismatics trying to seize the opportunity to spread the "good news" and use an anime in false dichotomy to do so.

The irony of it all is these people seem to take a strange delight in talking about the devil more than they do their own... well, enough said... I've made my point on this.

Big Venus is Big-Venus.
The whole Biblical apocalyptic scenario was only put there for artistic purposes so people would ooo and ahhh and draw the most superficial conclusions.

The references were not put there so a bunch of Big-O fans could sit and pour over the obscurities like a bunch of Hasidic Jews arguing over passages of the Torah!

And to think that we actually wonder why the lunkers shake their heads at us and call us a bunch of geeks.



Anyway, I've said my piece, you guys go ahead and contemplate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or what is the sound of one hand clapping or if a tree falls in the forest and nobody's there to hear it, does it actually make a sound...

*SoH pounds head on keyboard*

As for me I have to answer a letter from another new-found friend in Japan.
He too thinks that this whole "Lucifer" bullcrap has been blown completely out of proportion.

But his opinion actually means something to me.
Not that your's doesn't... I'm just trying to cut down on my salt intake.

Oh I almost forgot...

And here's the final kicker:

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[ 22:16 The Greek is plural.] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 22 In context: Revelation 22:15-17)



So um... is Jesus Big-Venus too?
Or is he Lucifer?

quote:

Originally posted by Son_of_Horus quote: Originally posted by Big Money quote: Originally posted by Son_of_Horus Or if I really wanted to open a can of worms I could descend into the bowels of the beast and make the very worst comparison yet; which is the one which brings a throng of arm chair theologians out from under their goddamned rocks, and that is the dreaded comparison of Big Venus to Lucifer-- an embarrassing and whacked out exegesis picked at to the very F’n bone which only serves to make the followers of this series look more like cultic whack jobs than it has ever served to illuminate. ... It is in the art book, you know. Really? I have the art companion as well. Would you care to quote the passage that declares that Big Venus represents a "Satanic" archetype according to the Judaeo/Christian belief system? Because I don't see it. And yet why is it that everyone seems to "parrot" as if it's fact that the writers were using that comparison? I would say it's because no one actually read the passage. Much like the brain deads on AS who thought we were saying that the network was phasing out anime, yet refused to actually read what was posted. The passage in the art book was an allegory. And it was a VERY, very unfortunate choice of words. But no where, absolutely no where is it possible, even if you reached deeply with your entire forearm into Mr. Goatse large intestine... No where can a doctrinal comparison be drawn out where Big-Venus represents: 1. A fallen angel who puppeted a snake which deceived mankind and brought sin into the world, who incredulously is supposed to possess a JEW who is supposed to deceive the nations and bring in a seven year tribulation period the likes of which this world has never seen. or 2. A roman god. or 3. The Hebrew version, which is the most sensible, thank G-D! Which simply uses it to reference the King of Babylon, or the world system. So to use the reference in a canonical sense is WRONG People make mistakes! Just like the way the word "Nightingale" is misspelled as "NightEngale" or as the word Pero was used instead of Pierrot, or as Angel appears on a painting in Mr. Wise's house as his very dead departed wife! It literally sends me into paroxysms of rage to hear this stupid inane ridiculous incorrect comparison expounded upon by unqualified people who either grew up in households where religious zealotry masqueraded as parenting or people who have miraculously transformed into sandal wearing charismatics trying to seize the opportunity to spread the "good news" and use an anime in false dichotomy to do so. The irony of it all is these people seem to take a strange delight in talking about the devil more than they do their own... well, enough said... I've made my point on this. Big Venus is Big-Venus. The whole Biblical apocalyptic scenario was only put there for artistic purposes so people would ooo and ahhh and draw the most superficial conclusions. The references were not put there so a bunch of Big-O fans could sit and pour over the obscurities like a bunch of Hasidic Jews arguing over passages of the Torah! And to think that we actually wonder why the lunkers shake their heads at us and call us a bunch of geeks. Anyway, I've said my piece, you guys go ahead and contemplate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or what is the sound of one hand clapping or if a tree falls in the forest and nobody's there to hear it, does it actually make a sound... *SoH pounds head on keyboard* As for me I have to answer a letter from another new-found friend in Japan. He too thinks that this whole "Lucifer" bullcrap has been blown completely out of proportion. But his opinion actually means something to me. Not that your's doesn't... I'm just trying to cut down on my salt intake. Oh I almost forgot... And here's the final kicker: Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[ 22:16 The Greek is plural.] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." (Whole Chapter: Revelation 22 In context: Revelation 22:15-17) So um... is Jesus Big-Venus too? Or is he Lucifer?

Umm... This is gonna sound rude, but way to blow things outta proportion.

All I'm saying is what I've said already, and that it says so in the book. To be exact, it says "Venus/Lucifer" as shown here. Now, I am seriously not interested in an argument with you about this, so I'm not posting anyomore on this subject.


-------------
Hey, and I take offense to that bit I bolded... As neither apply to me at all.

Yeah, I think someone needs decalf.

I mean really SoH, you're kind of getting as ranty as some of the weirdoes at the AS forums. If you find out you're wrong, will we have to keep the scissors away from you? And that's the thing, this is a forum about sharing ideas. Don't go from disagreeing to being disagreeable. Or to being Schwarzwald.

As an olive branch to one of my fave hosts, you make some good points.

Well... there is one more thing. Denegrating people I think is going over the line. Be careful.

Let me clarify: (Son of Horus especially please read) I'm not trying to sound crazy or exact/perfect here. I know all this sounds far-off--especially if religion isn't part of your vernacular...and I'm not saying that this is what the creators mean nessessarily...but I'm just trying to say some of the conclusions I've come up personally with looking at this series past the surface...because it's not a surface-based series.

I probably sound like a fanatic, but whatever, I feel that this series requires/deserves one to delve into it to try and find meaning. It's art, and I greatly support creativity and good stories. I've looked at in different ways, but there's a lot of crazy coincidences here, it doesn't feel completely like add-ons. And no offense, but talking about BIG-O being Freudian is just a sad, sick joke. That's not even remotely close to the religious connection present even from episode one: "Cast in the Name of God, Ye Not Guilty"..."Are you praying?". BIG-O is a name the creators came up with personally from an older Japanese show if I recall...but also interesting to point out, though stretching it now, is that there's BIG-O Notation in math, which does something like running through all scenarios to find the correct one. That's more likely than giving this a primal meaning. It's anything but Freudian. I'm sorry, that's absurd. That would have absolutely no purpose. The series has clearly always been about breaking a cycle, Gordon's always hoping for so much from his next crop and what a shame to watch the harvest grow all season just to have it rot away. Roger always talks about choices and being free. That is a key message. "Angel, stop denying your own existance".

The Japanese are not staying directly in tune exactly with any one religion or story (adding Wizard of Oz, Metropolis, etc as I added through an edit on my first post here...not to mention the Egyptian losing the eye thing that was everywhere toward the end of Season 2 and a little before), but the influences are symbolic to emphasize roles and themes--it has something to do with the main story. They're not there for just kicks--not in this abundance...unless they're saying they put all this effort in there for nothing and its all a farce.

More than anything we're given religious symbolism--more so than any of this TV Show/Stage stuff...which for all intents and purposes is really metaphoric--not enough consistent evidence.

...Can anyone agree on this though?: That Paradigm City is a simulation for mankind. Paradigm City itself isn't a real city, it only serves as an expirament. It has no place in the world without its purpose. Before the Event it was just New York...it doesn't exist outside this Event/simulation. The peoples' lives are incociquential unless they challenge the expirament...bring about its completion.

It will not end, unless either the people overcome their desturctive nature, or the Creator who is ABOVE the Director (ie: like a Producer), descides that the expirament/event should cease to exist, causing Paradigm City to cease to exist

That's why Angel as Director is told by Roger in the final scene of ACT 26, to stop denying her own existance and let the people keep their memories/they're vulnerable without them--something like this.

THE REASON he says this I feel, is because without mankind knowing their past mistakes/past destructive battles they can never have a true opportunity at correcting their future. The old saying, if you don't study the past, you are doomed to repeat history. So maybe now, as a concept to add to this basic idea, Fau is the event of 40 years ago now for the people instead of whatever it really was, and that's why the city is in semi-ruins at the end of ACT 26, as it was in ACT 1. People remember that and have a chance to not want to repeat it. Therefore as Gordon talked about how Angel could change things, the real event of 40 years ago did not essentially happen, Alex's war of Paradigm City became the Event. Still, the simulation continues, and is without the original Event's memories, thus amnesia...and they still have to choose good over destruction.

You can't just dismiss religious themes in Big O, since many of the pressing issues in Paradigm are also those that religion are concerned with:

What is this world we are living in?

Is someone in charge? If so, is he sane? Does he care about us, or are we just victims? (Think about Alex Rosewater's answers to THOSE questions!)

What happens when we die? Do we come back?

Is there something outside the world?

Are there people outside the world?

Is the world the way it's supposed to be, or has there been some kind of horrible tragedy?

The world seems to be messed up. How can we make it better?

Do we have to slay (or possibly seduce) some godlike beings in order to take control of our destiny, or is it already all up to us?

Did cause and effect operate across the day we woke up 40 years ago and the time before that, or was there a discontinuity?

Do we have free will?

If anything, the answers to these questions are even more ambiguous in Paradigm than in our world. And the people in Paradigm do not even remember their religions.

quote:

Originally posted by stryker Yeah, I think someone needs decalf. I mean really SoH, you're kind of getting as ranty as some of the weirdoes at the AS forums. If you find out you're wrong, will we have to keep the scissors away from you? And that's the thing, this is a forum about sharing ideas. Don't go from disagreeing to being disagreeable. Or to being Schwarzwald. As an olive branch to one of my fave hosts, you make some good points. Well... there is one more thing. Denegrating people I think is going over the line. Be careful.

Ranting?
Well call me Schwarzwald.



Venus/Lucifer
Does not mean Venus=Lucifer anymore than would a political article that printed out Bush/Kerry mean that Bush and Kerry are the same.

But I digress, lets use the same twisted logic on a "CANON" accepted by hundreds of millions of people.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[ 22:16 The Greek is plural.] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 22 In context: Revelation 22:15-17)

Bright Morning Star = Lucifer

Therefore if Venus/Lucifer means Venus = Lucifer...

Then it follows that Morning Star = Jesus/Lucifer.

Because Morning Star = Lucifer.

Hey, it's in the companion...

You know, the one with the Old and the New Testaments?

I mean one canon is as good as the next, right?

This descent into bathos was brought to you by your's truly.

As for you, Big Money...

quote:

Hey, and I take offense to that bit I bolded... As neither apply to me at all.

Nowhere did I mention the words ALL people or EVERYONE.
But I'll tell you what...
In the future I'm going to use the word SOMBIMNOL, just for this forum.
It's a word coined by Robert Anton Wilson which means "some but not all".

Let's try this again, with our new "accessory word", shall we?

It literally sends me into paroxysms of rage to hear this stupid inane ridiculous incorrect comparison expounded upon by SOMBINAL unqualified people who either grew up in SOMBINAL households where religious zealotry masqueraded as parenting or SOMBINAL people who have miraculously transformed into sandal wearing charismatics trying to seize the opportunity to spread the "good news" and use an anime in false dichotomy to do so.

And yes, fanatics DO use anime in false dichotomy.

And when it happens it affects us all.
So I will get angry about it and I will go into a rant, especially when it's absurd.


It also bothers me when SOMBINAL people assume that things are directed at them when no where in the text is that specifically either implied or suggested.

Perhaps SOMBINAL of those types of people are suffering from a persecution complex of sorts.


Which might very well expose SOMBINAL of those people as holding the same beliefs which I mentioned above.

Cough, literature doesn't hold all the answers. This was meant to be an open-minded discussion. I appreciate all the candidness, but let's keep what is said straight.

And basically Venus has two sides as we've all seen. Destructive (teeth lasers, etc) in the visions, and Reconfig./resurrecting through Resets. But that's not the point, there's plenty of more stuff just as A Clockwork Tomato noted. That Art Book thing is not the point trying to be made here.

No one here is ever saying BIG-O is a tool of Evangelists, or people are actually biblical characters, but rather they perhaps act in those roles to a level of significance. We're just pointing out some visual facts.

But let's read my clarifying post above (my second post on this thread), eh? I made things a bit more coherent. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato You can't just dismiss religious themes in Big O, since many of the pressing issues in Paradigm are also those that religion are concerned with: What is this world we are living in? Is someone in charge? If so, is he sane? Does he care about us, or are we just victims? (Think about Alex Rosewater's answers to THOSE questions!) What happens when we die? Do we come back? Is there something outside the world? Are there people outside the world? Is the world the way it's supposed to be, or has there been some kind of horrible tragedy? The world seems to be messed up. How can we make it better? Do we have to slay (or possibly seduce) some godlike beings in order to take control of our destiny, or is it already all up to us? Did cause and effect operate across the day we woke up 40 years ago and the time before that, or was there a discontinuity? Do we have free will? If anything, the answers to these questions are even more ambiguous in Paradigm than in our world. And the people in Paradigm do not even remember their religions.

No where am I "dismissing" religious "themes"
Where I go into histrionics are when people ascribe doctrinal significance to things which were put into an anime for the sole purpose of adding spiritual significance or flavor to the mix.

If you're going to say that someone represents something, you have to base your comparison upon that somethings characteristics.

If those characteristics don't match up based it's own commonly agreed upon shape or form, to expound upon it is an exercise in futility.

I've read post after post of ponderous writ by people whose sole determinative in this belief was based upon Lucifer being a fallen angel.

WTF?

While I am most certainly NOT a Christian, at least I in my humanistic viewpoint have the thinking capacity to ask WHY he was a fallen angel.

It was because he was EVIL, something which the Big-O character Angel clearly and most certainly is not.

Unless of course one subscribes to a Luciferian Satanic ideology, such as that which was embraced in jest by Albert Pike, which postulates that he was righteous and rebelling against a tyrant.

quote:

Albert Pike, author of Morals and Dogma published in 1871."If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay (the God of the Christians) whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy, and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, calumniate him? "Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also God. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two Gods: darkness being necessary to light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive."

And there is no way in HELL that the animators or the writers of this series would even suggest such a preposterous thing such as this to viewers in a primarily Christian country.

...Even in jest something like that would be cultural suicide.

So naturally when this subject comes up I get very, very upset.
While magic and witchcraft is "cute" anything that even suggests a positive spin on the Satanic is damaging to the anime.

There's still idiots running around burning Harry Potter books.
Don't believe me?
Go to Google and type in the words Harry Potter and Satanic.
...enjoy the read, these whack jobs are all around you.

And you thought the Taliban was nuts?

The point I'm trying to make is that we're trying to sell Big-O to people so they ask for a third season.

We don't need to heap further confusion upon act 26 by indirectly suggesting that folks do eschatological gymnastics as well.

Paradigm Dog, the problem I have with your theory is that I think it accidentally twists the concept of redemption. Expecting the citizens of Paradigm to redeem themselves when they don't know what's going on, can't remember what happened before, and have no holy writ to guide them sounds like an act of cruelty rather than hope.

And as soon as one hypothesizes a cruel god, or a clueless one, or an insane one, you pretty much fallinto the "nothing means anything" pit -- unless Season 3 involves storming the gates of Hell and putting the devil to the sword. That would be okay.

The whole concept of group, rather than individual redemption is, in my opinion, repugnant -- and also makes for bad drama, which is perhaps more to the point.

The point you make about certain people making more of a difference than others is well-taken, but the important ingredient here is not anointment in any difficult-to-see way, but that the People Who Count have Megadeuses, and Megadeuses are VERY IMPORTANT in Paradigm. Whatever is wrong with Paradigm (and I refuse to even consider that Paradigm isn't dreadfully screwed up), the Megadeuses seem to be the only thing holding it together -- and are possibly the thing that's tearing it apart as well.

In that sense, I think the Yin and Yang are very true. Big Fau is an aggressive, aggrandizing, acquisitive, destructive Megadeus, while Big O is a defender, a protector who does his job and then vanishes, asking for no thanks. Their Dominuses are much the same. (I am forced to assume, by extension, that Big Duo is insane. Don't know about Big Venus.)

Dorothy is a special case, since she seems to have a deep connection with Megadeuses, and is also rugged enough to get Roger out of trouble when no one else can, not even Angel. From the flashback scene in Act 26, I get the impression, not provable in any way, that Angel introduced R. Dorothy into the current cycle to prevent Roger from ending up dead, again. (I feel strongly, without much evidence, that there have been many, many cycles.)

Lucifer is another name for Venus, the Morning and Evening Star. The symbolism of something associated with both beginnings and endings clearly meshes well with a Yin/Yang mindset, and I think that Big Venus both ends the current cycle and creates the new one, thus -- for once! -- lining up the symbolism quite neatly with something's visible function.

The use of crosses and stuff is obviously intentional, but I agree with Son of Horus that this is probably intented as a way of nonspecifically setting a mood for a scene, rather than as specific, precisely calculated messages with a deep meaning.

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Originally posted by Paradigm Dog People were complaining there's nothing new on this forum...that everything's been talked about. Here's new, revisited, and also newly spinned additions that make great reads. Enjoy and let's have fun discussing once again. There is a lot of world religion/ideology symbolism hidden both visually as well as verbally. Rewatching the series AGAIN (beats me how many times. lol), I picked up on a lot more. But one thing I wanted to point out right away here that is very interesting--the strong, blatant Yin and the Yang symbolism. Notice that they box off this scene oddly, as if to focus on something. This building is very curious. But here's what's more important, Roger, in Black, is the dot inside the shining white, while Alex is the white dot within the shadowy black. It makes the Yin-Yang symbol. Each has a little of its opposite within them to maintain balance. From dictionary.com: "the interaction of yin and yang maintains the harmony of the universe" Isn't this, in effect, what Rosewater says in this scene. That they are the stars of the stage of Paradigm City, without either one of them, Paradigm cannot exist, its show cannot go on. Somehow, strangely, the two of them bring balance to Paradigm. This is purposely put in, its not mistake, otherwise the shadows wouldn't have cut off so solidly and the down-shot angle wouldn't have been chosen. Any thoughts how this plays into the grand scheme? ...I've got some coming up later in the post... dictionary.com: "yin and yang together produce everything that comes into existence" Yin-Yang doesn't normally symbolize good vs evil in any case as far as I've learned over the years...and yet there is a polorizing here. It makes me wonder... The theory I've been promising--Paradigm's current existence is such: Man continued its destructive ways and eventually destroyed itself. God has given mankind a second chance however yet again. RESETS. There have been RESETS in our Biblical history: Noah's Flood, Sodom and Gamorra, etc. All times in history (biblical etc) that God ended up having to RESET the world so that it might begin anew and learn not to make its self-destructive mistakes. The reason Paradigm's people disappear and reappear is because they are souls that have been allowed to participate on a physical plain (metaphoric stage) again (Roger seeing those ghostly figures in ACT 4, including his mother, in the underground may be a reference to the spiritual aspect). One of the times, or the first time this was set up, Gordon Rosewater (devinely inspired) acted like Moses, delivering the people from the Desert into the Paradigm (ideal) City ("Forty years in the Desert" connects with 40 years ago everyone lost their memories). Then later he became a John, writing Revelations in the form of Metropolis to warn mankind about its misdeeds of the past. He is a primary messenger of God, or acts as God's voice in Paradigm...a burning bush if you will of the Old Testament (HE HAS THE TREE OF LIFE IN HIS BACKYARD FOR PETE'S SAKE! -on Ailesberry). Problem is, mankind still keeps making the same mistakes and it all plays out as a devine comedy of sorts. I believe there was pressure put on Alex Rosewater to be one who would be a choice tomato, a choice soul reincarnate, to help lead the people toward righteousness. But he fell astray for his own, devilish ambitions of usurping the Creator and he became a devil. Notice that Fau initially accepts him, but then rejects him after it realizes his darkness. He perhaps was meant to even be a proper Apocolypse White Horseman war general with Fau, but failed to make the cut because of his choices. Additionally, there is a scene after he allegedly kills his father where he is in that same room with the hole in the roof shown above, but it is all dark and he is crying. He cannot reach the light above. And behind him are abstract angel wings created by the windows, as if he is a fallen angel in hell by the camera angle--watch it and see! Additionally, he burns the symbolic TREE OF LIFE at ailesberry. Thus, somehow the fate of Paradigm rests in 3 individuals. ROGER, DOROTHY, and ANGEL. They apparently are the ONLY ONES who can make a difference in Paradigm. Because in HYDRA, they are the only ones standing the rain without an umbrella, and Roger said, that's what it means to live free and have choices. They are the only ones with the free will to stop the Paradigm sim and allow mankind to continue...whether that means Paradise, or going back to Earth. Perhaps the Kingdom on Earth. Hmm. Paradigm only exists while the Yin and Yang, a balance of harmony of good and evil, protection and destruction play out. When the darker half is removed from PARADIGM, the city will cease to exist and the simulation will succeed. Mankind cannot destroy itself in the process though, or the balance is not made and the whole thing fails. Roger has been chosen to be the Savior role by the Creator, (a Creator who only Gordon Rosewater agknowledges in ACT 26...and its not the same thing as Angel). Roger is chosen because he has lived in many of the roles and knows what all the castes of society, poor to rich, are like. Also explains all the crosses in the series with Roger. Roger on the cross in shadow, body, or near it (a few of many...): --the white stripe on his tie combined with his outstretched arms make a cross as well. There are many other crosses (some abstract) in the series related to the megadeus and roger, but I don't need to point too many of them out. Final Stage itself is sort of a cross, and has three slashes in it as if for the trinity perhaps even. 3 is a sacred number. one that is off Roger, but still has the cross: Dorothy is the Holy Spirit role. She comes to him in ACT 2 and CHOOSES him. It's like when the dove descended upon Jesus at that baptism and announces him. Angel acts as the symbolic angel of death it seems. The Creator/God sends her when the life simulation fails and needs to start over again through big Venus. Must go to that accursed floor to act as a destroyer for a bit. The Creator that Gordon talks about is not Angel. It is someone we have not met, and likely won't meet. It's God. Schwarzwald, Big Ear, Daustan, and others cannot effect mankind directly, but act as the strengtheners that Jesus meets along the way, like the spirits of Elisha and Moses on the mountain near his crucifixion that peter wants to make tents for, and John the Baptist, etc. They strengthen Roger in various ways for his great task. Alan was added because he is loyal to no one and one who takes pleasure in pain and darkness. He is the embodyment of why things go wrong in the world. He acts as the purest demon basically. The biblical references don't stop with this. I don't need to name them all, but Leviathan, Behemoth, Heaven's Day ("God's Son was born"), "...better the closer you are to Heaven's Gate", Angels, Fallen Angel, Stars falling from the heavens, Revelations, mark of the beast, 3 Ball in the pocket in Pool many times, 4 BIGs/4 Horseman colors, Instro playing in churches (he didn't have to), good deal of churches, 3 foreign megadeus gifts/3 foreign wisemen gifts, "ashes to ashes, dust to dust",etc etc. We got hit over the head with religious symbolism, especially related to Christianity and Judaism...but also Eastern tradition was mixed in with Yin-Yang and who knows what else. I know people have talked about the Bibile's connections a lot in the past, I just thought I'd make them more concise and put in the possible new Biblical findings. The way its presented, its new i think. Deep. Thoughts? PS- Additionally, there seems to be strong connections to the following which mix together with the religious background to makeup BIG-O's foundations. (Not sure to what level they are significant, but they possibly each played a role in the formation of the story of BIG-O). -WIZARD OF OZ (see The Yellow Brick Road radio drama of BIG-O by the writers--also demonstrated by Vera's statement to Angel: "there's no place like home") -old Metropolis movie by Fritz Lang. The Underground, evil double robot, etc is here. -I, Robot displays the rules of androids. -the book God Bless you Mr. Rosewater--possibly where the concept of using the name Rosewater for a rich leader began.

By golly!!!! how did you know all that?!?

Well, I'm rousing from collapse, so I thot I'd actually add something a little more substantial to this thread. I just noticed that I hadn't even praised Paradigm Dog's thread! I love what he posted! It's very probing and makes one think.

If anything, the creators of Big O seem to have used it as a vehicle to nudge the minds of the viewers, much like I intend to do with my own works, and much like Michael Seebach - not Schwarzwald, he's a crual maniac. To THINK! The creators must have been moody philosophical types like me, putting their cast into a situation which eventually grabbed them and forced them to confront all those issues which Paradigm Dog and Clockwork Tomato posted above. They're all ultimately religious questions. I think the Jewish-Christian themes must have facinated or charmed the creators, and perhaps Japanese culture, or it suited the themes of their world. Issues of good and evil, human nature and inhuman nature, life and death, and redemption both individual and national. Other religions don't really deal with those issues quite like Judeo-Christianity does, and might best suit what the creators wanted expressed.

Religious themes are too deeply interwoven in the fabric of the world to be an inconsequential matter, and are too crucial to the issues both the citizens of Paradigm and our own world face. And frankly, I don't think anything but deep philosophy and religion can answer those questions. Materialism can't even tell us how the universe came to be. The birth of stars and how matter became self aware can't be explained using scientific principles and laws. Ultimately then, these questions in our world seek a transcendent answer. I think the creators wanted to create something much bigger than a simple anime, but a personal expression of their own religious and philosophical yearnings, and attempted to nudge our minds to this higher plane, getting us to ask like Roger and Michael Seebach, who are we, why are we here and what does this mean?

I think I'm probably more fanatical than Paradigm Dog over this wild and mysterious series. When I finally borrowed the videos and saw them all, after reading some of the discussion posts here and at AS, I was utterly absorbed. I absolutely love this strange world these people find themselves in, with no explanation. Roger Smith, Dorothy, Angel and Dan Dastun don't just seem like characters in a fantasy show, they feel like friends that I get to meet in 24 minute adventures. Writing their stories seems to bring them to life in my heart in an even more personal way, as I get into their heads even more, sharing their joys, fears and yearnings, and their burning need for answers, and Memories.

I have some answers, it'll be interesting what you guys think of them. I didn't intend to try to discern what they were hinting at. It came to me after a tornado and a four hour nap in fact. But when I awoke with that idea exploding in my head, I was compelled to write. But I do think it harmonizes very well with what the creators laid before us. I'm really looking forward to reading your stories too, and seeing what you saw that I missed.

And I agree Darkangel, that was one heck of a thread starter!

quote:

Originally posted by stryker Well, I'm rousing from collapse, so I thot I'd actually add something a little more substantial to this thread. I just noticed that I hadn't even praised Paradigm Dog's thread! I love what he posted! It's very probing and makes one think. If anything, the creators of Big O seem to have used it as a vehicle to nudge the minds of the viewers, much like I intend to do with my own works, and much like Michael Seebach - not Schwarzwald, he's a crual maniac. To THINK! The creators must have been moody philosophical types like me, putting their cast into a situation which eventually grabbed them and forced them to confront all those issues which Paradigm Dog and Clockwork Tomato posted above. They're all ultimately religious questions. I think the Jewish-Christian themes must have facinated or charmed the creators, and perhaps Japanese culture, or it suited the themes of their world. Issues of good and evil, human nature and inhuman nature, life and death, and redemption both individual and national. Other religions don't really deal with those issues quite like Judeo-Christianity does, and might best suit what the creators wanted expressed. Religious themes are too deeply interwoven in the fabric of the world to be an inconsequential matter, and are too crucial to the issues both the citizens of Paradigm and our own world face. And frankly, I don't think anything but deep philosophy and religion can answer those questions. Materialism can't even tell us how the universe came to be. The birth of stars and how matter became self aware can't be explained using scientific principles and laws. Ultimately then, these questions in our world seek a transcendent answer. I think the creators wanted to create something much bigger than a simple anime, but a personal expression of their own religious and philosophical yearnings, and attempted to nudge our minds to this higher plane, getting us to ask like Roger and Michael Seebach, who are we, why are we here and what does this mean? I think I'm probably more fanatical than Paradigm Dog over this wild and mysterious series. When I finally borrowed the videos and saw them all, after reading some of the discussion posts here and at AS, I was utterly absorbed. I absolutely love this strange world these people find themselves in, with no explanation. Roger Smith, Dorothy, Angel and Dan Dastun don't just seem like characters in a fantasy show, they feel like friends that I get to meet in 24 minute adventures. Writing their stories seems to bring them to life in my heart in an even more personal way, as I get into their heads even more, sharing their joys, fears and yearnings, and their burning need for answers, and Memories. I have some answers, it'll be interesting what you guys think of them. I didn't intend to try to discern what they were hinting at. It came to me after a tornado and a four hour nap in fact. But when I awoke with that idea exploding in my head, I was compelled to write. But I do think it harmonizes very well with what the creators laid before us. I'm really looking forward to reading your stories too, and seeing what you saw that I missed. And I agree Darkangel, that was one heck of a thread starter!

AHEM!
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...Points downward.

quote:

Originally posted by Son_of_Horus (second post in fact) I enjoyed reading this. It recognizes the effort of the writers at creating an aura around the persona of Roger Smith as a type of "savior". It might even explain some of the almost religious like fervor which fans have for this anime, at least on a subconscious level.

*Stands behind Paradigm Dog, holds up cymbals, slams then together repeatedly while making face like monkey.*


What a bunch of rubes...

*laughs!* Uhm... well, it's always nice to be quoted.

Ahh its the www.paradigm-city.com renaissance!

This is the kind of stuff that made PC great, I don't understand a lick of it, but I love it!

Great job guys, even though must of this goes way over the head of this lowly high school student.

Thank you Stryker, Darkangel, and everyone for making this an interesting discussion.

Stryker, you spoke of Schwarzwald a moment ago...He's a very facinating case for symbolism. The name itself, Schwarzwald, means "Black Forest" and is German. However, the creators could have picked anything German to name him. Why Black Forest? Of course it sounds cool, but perhaps there is more to it. Afterall, The Black Forest is where Hitler unjustly killed many of the Jewish faith early on. The Black Forest is documented as a symbol of war's horrors. Ironically, Schwarzwald always says he's going to remind people of the trajedies of 40 years ago, whether it be with BIG Duo and direct destruction, or through his prose. I don't think he's an inherently evil or crazy character, but rather, one who wishes to remind perople of their mistakes the hard way. His questing for the truth made him over zealous and thus crazy. His own body, which previously released the Archetype Megadeus' lock, which is perhaps how/why he was able to become the rightful Dominus of Duo, is a visual picture of the scars of lusting after power.

Let me clarify: (Son of Horus especially please read) I'm not trying to sound crazy or exact/perfect here. I know all this sounds far-off--especially if religion isn't part of your vernacular...and I'm not saying that this is what the creators mean nessessarily...but I'm just trying to say some of the conclusions I've come up personally with looking at this series past the surface...because it's not a surface-based series.

AMMENDMENTS I'm not sure if this was missed/ignored earlier or not, so I'm going to place this down here again. There are some very good sub-points, especially at the end regarding the PURPOSE of Paradigm--a limited purpose--, Fau and the Event.

---Let me clarify: I'm not trying to sound crazy or exact/perfect here in this theory that looks at symbolism. I know all this sounds far-off--especially if religion/world ideologies aren't a part of your vernacular...and I'm not saying that this is what the creators mean nessessarily...but I'm just trying to state some of the conclusions I've come up personally with looking at this series past the surface...because it's not a surface-based series. No one here is ever saying BIG-O is a tool of Evangelists--I'm not saying that at all. Keep in mind that we're dealing with half the puzzles pieces here having no season 3.

I probably sound like a fanatic, but whatever, I feel that this series requires/deserves one to delve into it to try and find meaning. It's art, and I greatly support creativity and good stories. I've looked at in different ways, but there's a lot of crazy coincidences here, it doesn't feel completely like add-ons. And no offense, but talking about BIG-O being Freudian is just a sad, sick joke. That's not even remotely close to the religious connection present even from episode one: "Cast in the Name of God, Ye Not Guilty"..."Are you praying?". BIG-O is a name the creators came up with personally from an older Japanese show if I recall...but also interesting to point out, though stretching it now, is that there's BIG-O Notation in math, which does something like running through all scenarios to find the correct one. That's more likely than giving this a primal meaning. It's anything but Freudian. I'm sorry, that's absurd. That would have absolutely no purpose. The series has clearly always been about breaking a cycle, Gordon's always hoping for so much from his next crop and what a shame to watch the harvest grow all season just to have it rot away. Roger always talks about choices and being free. That is a key message. "Angel, stop denying your own existance".

The Japanese are not staying directly in tune exactly with any one religion or story (adding Wizard of Oz, Metropolis, etc as I added through an edit on my first post here...not to mention the Egyptian losing the eye thing that was everywhere toward the end of Season 2 and a little before), but the influences are symbolic to emphasize roles and themes--it has something to do with the main story. They're not there for just kicks--not in this abundance...unless they're saying they put all this effort in there for nothing and its all a farce.

More than anything we're given world religion symbolism--more so than any of this TV Show/Stage stuff...which for all intents and purposes is really metaphoric--not enough consistent evidence. This doesn't hurt BIG-O or Season 3 prospects at all.

...Can anyone agree on this though?: That Paradigm City is a simulation for mankind. Paradigm City itself isn't a real city, it only serves as an expirament. It has no place in the world without its purpose. Before the Event it was just New York...it doesn't exist outside this Event/simulation. The peoples' lives are incociquential unless they challenge the expirament...bring about its completion.

It will not end, unless either the people overcome their desturctive nature, or the Creator who is ABOVE the Director (ie: like a Producer), descides that the expirament/event should cease to exist, causing Paradigm City to cease to exist.

That's why Angel as Director is told by Roger in the final scene of ACT 26, to stop denying her own existance and let the people keep their memories/they're vulnerable without them--something like this.

THE REASON (i feel currently) he says this, is because without mankind knowing their past mistakes/past destructive battles they can never have a true opportunity at correcting their future...they are in a cruel existance as Clockwork mentioned. The old saying, if you don't study the past, you are doomed to repeat history. So maybe now, as a concept to add to this basic idea, Fau is the Event of 40 years ago now for the people instead of whatever it really was, and that's why the city is in semi-ruins at the end of ACT 26, as it was in ACT 1. People remember that and have a chance to not want to repeat it. Therefore as Gordon talked about how Angel could change things a great deal, the real event of 40 years ago did not essentially happen, Alex's war of Paradigm City became the Event. Still, the simulation continues, and is without the original Event's memories, thus amnesia...and they still have to choose good over destruction.---

...And SoH, thanks for the micro hit back there. Rubes? nice. I don't think people personally consider themselves bumpkins here however.
PEACE!