Ending of season 2

Just the Black dress on Dorthy alone proves that it's not a reset. Prior to the show's begining Roger lived with Norman alone.

hello everyone ^^
i am new here and this site is simply amazing. i have read a lot of your previous topics but i think i have understood some things that havent been said yet , thats why i would like to add something about the ending of the show. i apologize in advance for my spelling and stuff because i am french and no need to say that since the second season is not subded in french, i had to watch it in english which is quite challenging but well, here is my theory about the ending ^^ this is quite long because in fact, it seems too difficult to separate it in bits and pieces to fit a few subtopics, so i put the whole chain of thoughts in the same place, otherwise it wont be understable ^^) :

to understand what happen at the end, it is important to understand what happened 40 years ago . it seemed that there was a powerful human civilization, with numerous megaduses. People reached the ultimate power of destruction and used it, nearly killing everybody.
God, thru his messenger, Angel, punished the human race and set the amnesia with Big venus.no news for now ^^
Although, some chosen ones like Gordon Rosewater were (like Noe in the holy bible) given the chance to rebuild the world. Gordon became a sort of god on earth because he is the father of the new generation of artificial human beings. He confirms too that Angel is not human. And I suspect that he is the one who erased the memories of Angel and his too, on the command of Angel. She probably wanted to forget the horror and believed that this time, humans couldn’t get back the destructive knowledge.

Also Gordon reveals that there was a Roger Smith living 40 years ago whom he hired to know about Paradigm city being a stage so this would mean to negociate with god (the world is a stage for god to watch – I mean god like a superior intelligence life form at least) or so to speak to negociate with Angel (the will of god sent to earth).(slightly disgression here : the stage and Schwartzwald rising up to it could mean that despite all human endehavors and struggles, the mistery of the universe remain out of reach)
Or can the stage be a creation of the androids ?
It looks like an arena where megaduses battle like gladiators until it remains only one of them , the one to be chosen by big venus. Megaduses seem to be lower gods themselves, waiting to be chosen by God. I think maybe Gordon Rosewater was the former champion chosen by Angel. But is Angel a clone of the former Angel as Roger Smith is ?
And so androids maybe are the remains of a former trial to achieve a perfect civilization. Afterwards Gordon Rosewater chose to grow artificial human beings. This path was not perfect either. So androids would be rejects as the union claims to be the gathering of. That would explain R-D maybe ?
And also it makes sense when Schwarzwald tells Allan Gabriel that he has to choose between human and machine to pilot a Big. Indeed Big megaduses pilots run for the title of “champion”, the leader of the next cycle that is, so they must have strong values and opinions to define the future path of the city.

So back to the first Roger Smith from 40 years ago, I think he was cloned by Gordon since he couldn’t fulfill his mission.
In the end Alex Rosewater wants to repeat the same mistake than 40 years ago and start an age of darkness. Roger is there to try and stop him and eventually reaches the opportunity to negociate with Angel who knows her responsabilities now. The point is that amnesia didnt solve anything and this time she has to trust the human spirit and its goodness.
At the very end, Angel holds the book Metropolis and Angel Rosewater is the name of the author instead of Gordon. Which means two things :
- Gordon and Angel indeed worked hand to hand 40 years ago to rebuild the city.
- Angel accepts the point of view of Roger and decides to trust the human race. She considers herself as human by now (since Gordon is the father of quite everybody) and then can starts a new age with god and humans evolving together.(which can be also the meaning of big venus and big o melting into one another)
So I don’t think there is a reset or something because now Dorothy and Angel are together (god among humans) and Roger has accomplished his task and drives to the damaged city for he will be the new leader, in charge of rebuilding what has been destroyed. Its more like a new step in the evolution.

What about the union ?
Does it simply exist ? Doesn’t Gordon say there is no union at all ? Is it a creation , fake memories implanted into the agents in order to them to fulfill their task ?
Vera (agent 12) knew about Angel and helped erase her memory (she played the role of her mother), but who was she ? The assistant of Gordon or an other angel ? In this case she is no spy from the Union nor Angel is, so then what ?
40 years ago, Gordon set up 2 different organisations :
- Paradigm led by Alex (probably a very talented “tomato”)
- the union led by Vera
As Paradigm takes care about current matters, the union is assigned to work underground and collect the memories to improve the way of life of people. The spies look like agents of god somewhat (the singing and stuff). But as a matter of fact both organisations have failed, Alex wants to rule the world and the union seek revenge . Both want to destroy the city. Which proves that the amnesia did not succeed to set peace in paradigm city. Also Allan Gabriel looks like a fallen angel and Vera like a walkyrie (a battle angel), but I don’t think they are really angels.(however Gabriel is an angel’s name isn’t it ?)
Could the union be the chaos inherent to each cycle ? The gathering of all the past failed attempts to reach the perfect civilization ?

sorry if it was awfully long but as you can see, it is hard to separate the points from one another but it is all linked to the ending of the season 2 and what could be next ?
Please tell me what you think of it ! ^^

Well said, although I would have used the world "ordeal" instead of "trial," it took a moment to see what you were talking about through your (admitingly rough)syntax.

Then there is Beck

Rosewater (alex) indicates that he wants beck to work for him (rosewater) forever. Does this indicate that Alex rosewater understands the "resets" and paradigm shifts that occur, or is he a victem to the plot over and over again? CAN the plot move along without him?

Does the Union exist? Well, no as in the group that vera was a part of (Before reality seemed to wipe itself clean, again apparently) as Gordon Rosewater indicates that they are a band of people who called themselves the Union without recognition, more akin to a terrorist group than a force of arms.

And yes as in a union of people bound together for a greater purpose (as in the workers who refitted Big O). This union trancends petty differences and guarentees that another day will shine on Paradigm City. Time and time again, old paradigms are being dismantled (in Paradigm city and in our reality where we call our homes) never to see the light of day again. But if we bury a paradigm before we dismantle it, we get a leviathan or a behoemeth capable of destroying all we worked for and may act as a catalyst for the loss of memory.

There is no guarentee that in this last paradigm shift that ended the second season of Big O resulted in a loss of memory, unless it was voulentary. We remain in the city of amnesia, but at least we know it now.

hmmm what you say is very helpful, thanks. i think i still need to see the last episods again.
also i hope my post is not too much of a pain to read. (i meant hand in hand by the way and not hand to hand)
so hum where do you think Angel and Vera come from anyway and who are (or were) they for real ? i admit that this sequence where Gordon , Angel and Vera meet where the fake memories of Angel were shot, is the sequence i have understood the less in the whole show.
its quite embarrassing because it opens a lot of new questions
*head spinning*
heheh

That brings up a couple of interesting questions. I don't think it was at all, for a lot of the same reasons many people have supplied, such as Angel and Dorothy knowing each other, or Dorothy wearing that same black dress. I think what it might have done is... shall we say... it cleaned up the place a little bit.

Because you notice it was sunny, and the surroundings didn't look like an East Dome.

>_< as a sidenote: IMHO, the sunny part might have added to the story, but I didn't like it. I didn't like the color scheme of the second series at all; wasn't as film noir as it could have been.

From what I can see, Big O, Big Duo, and the foreign Megadeuces were designed to fight the sea creatures. But in the previous reset, it was the Beheamoth and Leviathan who were responsible for the resistence, but they proved to powerful. Predating these two would be the Megadeuce found at the World Fair 2004.

Angel and Vera must come from something related to this era (or as we in the real world call it, now) and they know something of how the memories were lost, how the history was reset, and what this phantom union is as well as its goals.

Or, at least Vera, it appears as if Angel was raised in this fake memory. A way of influencing her on the new homeland. This in an interesting theory, that only gets muddled more when we see the "director's office" and its role.

The last moments of the show are very direct, the show must go on. Even off screen.

Of course, there is the possibility that i am totally wrong and i misinterpreted everything.

Im not completly sure, but the only reason i see it as a reset is because after big Venus took erased everything, they showed Roger, Angel and Dorothy in a room, which to me makes sense that it was the real world. and they had just reset teh artfiicial world that we had been watching for 26 episodes. To me, thats the best explaination for the ending.

Could it be a reset to "day of the advent" near the beginning of season 2?

1. Dorothy and Angel were standing next to eachother when Roscoe Fitzgerald revealed his secret

2. It was around this time that the unusual aspects of Angel's persona were being revelaed
Dorothy: "Or more preciecely, someone else has discovered his secret"
Angel: "Oh, you suspect me do you? That's not nice"
Roger: "If you have proof to the contrary I'd like to see it."
Angel "hrmppph."

Just another possibility.

well, it most likely isn't a reset:

in order for it to be a reset, it would have to be a COMPLETE reset, no differences, or else it wouldnt be the same, thus it wouldnt be a reset.

a partial reset: wtf??? that makes no sense, a shift, maybe i dunno....

most likely: its the same chronological order, just with another memory wipe. but since the first and second season's reeked of fate, than maybe its fated to repeat itself, just in a different form.

Note: not to mention it said "we have come to terms" in the end, meaning roger has successfully completed his negotiation, the one with angel, thus making her not reset it or not reset his or her or w/e's memories. not to meniton that alan gabriel, schwarzvald, and alex and gordon rosewater are DEAD.

I seem to be the only person here who thinks that the end of Season 2 was a reset. If it wasn't a reset, or a complete reset, then why the hell did Big Venus came out and why did the the matrix in the sky appear, and etc, etc, etc...
Gordon Rosewater said that there are people who can change their roles and there is evidence that indects this such as 'Roger The Wanderer'. So if people in Paradigm can change their roles every time the Event occurs and everybody's memories disappear, then why can't the entire play change as well? Think about it.
Peace.

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato If we listen to Gordon in Act 26 and believe what he says (and I sometime suspect that I'm the only one who does both), then the whole theory about endless loops is bogus. Angel can have endless loops if she wants, but it all comes down to her choice. Angel can give people a new dose of amnesia or let the old memories free, but it all comes down to her choice. I think that Angel wound stuff back to just before the destruction in that last day; before the "bombs" started falling. She presumably left Alan, Alex, Big Fau, and Big Duo out of the picture. But it wouldn't shock me if she ran things back to the moment before Big Venus appeared, changing things only so Alex did not survive. As for there being a new wave of amnesia, I don't believe it for a second. What Roger is referring to is the amnesia of 40 years ago. Angel told us that she didn't care about those memories. When she put the world back the way it was, she put it back the way it was. She didn't undo the old amnesia. That's how I see it. It's the only explanation I've heard that's consistent with what Gordon told Angel and what Roger told Angel.

Long time no see...Clockwork Tomato. I haven't seen your posts in a while...so when I saw this...I just HAD to respond. But in this case...you're confusing me. WHAT is it that Roger tells Angel?

I don't know if you're referring to the part about Roger telling Angel the confusing "riddle" about the bird whose wings have been "plucked". You'll have to illuminate me on that one. In fact...I still believe that "riddle" deserves a thread all its own for discussion too.

As to if Season 2's ending was a "reset" or "memory wipe"...the clues are there. And the biggest clue is the ARCHITECTURE of the buildings. Just look at the building at the end right before the fadeout. It's a huge hulking monstrosity with broken foundations and looking like it's about to fall. This is CLEARLY the biggest evidence we have that Angel simply relooped Paradigm City to either just after the "war" with Alex and Big Fau PRIOR to the city being completely wiped...or she could have recreated Paradigm City over again by allowing the main cast of characters to retain their "memories". Good clue about the speech by Roger Smith. That speech helped Angel "decide" to simply "retouch" the city a bit without major changes. As to Dorothy and Angel standing by each other...that was NOT a throwaway. We see the car Roger Smith is driving BEFORE we see Angel and Dorothy. That's as big a clue we're getting about the state of Paradigm after the "war". It's telling the viewer that there IS a CONNECTION between these two people on the streetcorner along with the driver of that Griffith. If you don't believe that...watch it carefully again and see that Angel BLINKS her eyes. Dorothy in that frame didn't blink once. Dorothy NEVER blinks in any episode of the Big O series. She's still an android. Thank God for that. We don't need a Pinocchio update for the 21st century.

Yes, the end of Act:26 was a very obvious 'reset'. But, a reset doesn't necessarily mean every event will happen exactly as it did before. Think of it like a video game, if that helps. We can logically deduce a few presumptions about the 'world' of Paradigm City from this ep:

*Paradigm is a virtual world -- it can't be a real matter-and-energy one. In a real one you can't just walk past a city full of buildings and people and stuff and then they instantaneously disappear. In a real world when a 50-foot robot falls onto a skyscraper it gets destroyed and people die. They don't come back looking exactly as they did before. Which means everyone who 'populates' that world is virtual, too. Except maybe the Bigs. It wouldn't surprise me if Big Duo's wreckage is laying around on the sound stage somewhere.

*Paradigm is analogous to a video game -- Or maybe closer, The Matrix. The beings who exist in it don't (or won't) realize they are inside of a constructed reality. The reason for it may be because there was a cataclysm that wiped out most of humanity. The ones who survived long enough (Gordon, Roger, Angel, Michael Seebach) may have reasoned a virtual existence for humanity is better than none at all. So they had their lifetime Memories impressed into either the Bigs or Paradigm's central processing. It would seem Roger's monologue and flashbacks support this. The Bigs use these human Memories as avatars. Gordon opts out and 'retires' so an Alex (tomato) is constructed to replace him. Which makes sense if Gordon was Fau's original Dominus. Duo/Schwartzwald "took the blue pill" and learned the truth of his virtual existence, which drove him mad and he self-destructed into one of the overhead lights. Angel/Venus, as the 'Game Master' for this round, both suspects and fears the truth of her reality which is why she's so conflicted (and wishy-washy). But she's too deep into the game to completely let go of her preconceptions til the end. It also explains the scarring on her back (from Venus' direct link). The humans outside of the Matrix were also scarred from their linking.

*Androids might be analogous to checks-and-balances programming -- Dorothy certainly provides that service for Roger! They're something like Oracle (again from the Matrix), an information link from the virtual world to the Bigs (or any Megadeus') higher world. Big Ear was shown to be an android construct at the end, which cetainly explains how he could come up with the most esoteric info for Roger at the drop of a hat. A Megadeus without an avatar/Dominus is certainly willing to accept any android programming for its direction (Constanze/Dorothy 1/Archetype/Fau/Duo for a short time). Alan Gabriel can be seen (like Agent Smith) as virus-killer program that's gone bad itself. Now it's contemptuous of androids(programming) and humans(Memories). He got hold of (infected) a Big, the Big judged him unworthy and expelled him like an email worm.

*Angel/Venus as "Author" -- the Bigs may 'play' in their vitual world, but they leave it to their avatars' Memories to give it its shape, story, and texture. Venus was the script writer/game master for this round but it seemed like she was ready to call the whole thing off and say 'Game Over'. It was up to O (or his avatar Roger) to Negotiate another round of play/existence by reminding her for all the pain of playing as a human being it's still a beautiful, worthwhile thing. So yes, she let it 'reset' to its next round. In this one it might be Roger/O who's the author. Which is why Dorothy's representing Roger's Rule #1 by being in a black dress.

quote:

*Angel/Venus as "Author" -- the Bigs may 'play' in their vitual world, but they leave it to their avatars' Memories to give it its shape, story, and texture. Venus was the script writer/game master for this round but it seemed like she was ready to call the whole thing off and say 'Game Over'. It was up to O (or his avatar Roger) to Negotiate another round of play/existence by reminding her for all the pain of playing as a human being it's still a beautiful, worthwhile thing. So yes, she let it 'reset' to its next round. In this one it might be Roger/O who's the author. Which is why Dorothy's representing Roger's Rule #1 by being in a black dress.

That's a fantastic theory!! And it fits with what Gordon Rosewater tells Roger about wanting the "Negotiator" to negotiate with the "director" of this world to change the way the world/program worked or at least let it continue. This would also explain Gordon's oblique "encouragements" to Angel before taking her down to Room B606 (that number must have a symbolic meaning...and I know somebody posted on it but I don't remember what it was). However, I'd take this notion even further...it's possible that in this hypothetical "new" scenario for Paradigm City Dorothy becomes Dominus of a Big...most likely Big Fau. Why Big Fau? It uses a substantial amount of pink on its body armor...see my thread on that whole theory. (there's nothing to prove a Dominus CAN'T be replaced with another one). And that other one probably is Dorothy. Remember the episode where Dorothy acted as "Negotiator"? Clearly she's Roger Smith's protege and may step into his shoes at some point. Dan Dastun would have to get used to hearing Dorothy's monotone voice all the time

*yawn*

Are we still talking about this? How about I dredge up every other thread about this so that everyone can read everyone else's switching back and forth on their opinion for what happened. Oh wait, I cant, the thread count would be close to 50, I imagine...

Here's the bottom line:

Angel had the power, choice, whatever you call it to decide Paradigm's fate. The fate of the city revolves around a choice she can make: Whether or not to give the citizens of Paradigm free will or keep them slaves to amnesia. By giving them free will, Angel will have decided to keep the memories intact and letting the citizens live their lives without causing amnesia. This will allow the people of Paradigm to live out their lives the way they want to live them, instead of piecing things back together and reverting back to the same things they do over and over again, as a result of their amnesia.

Roger successfully negotiates with Angel, via Big Venus, to keep the memories intact. You know this is the case when you see Roger drive past Angel and Dorothy on the street corner. Angel has a smile, blinks twice, and pretty much acknowledges Roger's point of view: dont make the citizens become slaves again to their amnesia, let them exercise their own free will as to what they can do with their lives by letting them remember what has happened in the past.

Big Venus reset the city so that it was livable again. Remember, Big Fau and Big O pretty much wrecked the whole place right before Angel and Big Venus showed up. If Big Venus hadnt've showed up, the citizens of Paradigm wouldnt have a place to live, since it wouldve been destroyed in the Big O-Big Fau fight. At the end, when Big Venus shows up, Roger pleads with Big Venus (Angel), getting out of his megadeus and stands their explaining his side and what must be done. Big Venus realizes this, fixes things, and moves on so that the city can live with their free will and memories intact.

So, yeah, there was a "reset", but not in the way everyone thinks it occurred. The damage to Paradigm was fixed so that buildings werent rubble and roads were manageable. But everyone's memories were not erased...

Dunzo...finished...case closed.

Just adding something, the ORIGINAL ending to Act 26 INSTEAD of this whole Roger driving-Angel and Dororthy standing-people looking at the Griffon-thing from Act One, was TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

They have it here somewhere in the forums, I suggest everybody read it, cause its definately something.

To put the scene in a nutshell, Roger gets out of the Griffon in the warehouse of Act One, where Beck is holding Dorothy. SAME SCENE, but then ANGEL gets out of the Griffon as well! She smiles at him. Just then, DASTUN and the Military Police break in and arrest Beck! Afterwards, Dorothy comes close to Roger and removes the blindfold. She looks at him, and says:

DOROTHY: Are you -- the negotiator?

ROGER: --er...

Just then, a RED CURTAIN goes down, and it says "WE HAVE COME TO TERMS."

Still, I don't think they HAVE come to terms...

Anywho, look into that! It was the original ending for Season 2, and I believe it does have some interesting clues, thouhg still vague...

Darn it.

Yep, the script for the last episode (including the original ending) is written out in the official guide book, so I translated the ending and posted it on the forums a while back. Your post pretty much sums it up, but here is the thread anyway in case anyone is interested.

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Originally posted by Mattartist Just adding something, the ORIGINAL ending to Act 26 INSTEAD of this whole Roger driving-Angel and Dororthy standing-people looking at the Griffon-thing from Act One, was TOTALLY DIFFERENT! They have it here somewhere in the forums, I suggest everybody read it, cause its definately something. To put the scene in a nutshell, Roger gets out of the Griffon in the warehouse of Act One, where Beck is holding Dorothy. SAME SCENE, but then ANGEL gets out of the Griffon as well! She smiles at him. Just then, DASTUN and the Military Police break in and arrest Beck! Afterwards, Dorothy comes close to Roger and removes the blindfold. She looks at him, and says: DOROTHY: Are you -- the negotiator? ROGER: --er... Just then, a RED CURTAIN goes down, and it says "WE HAVE COME TO TERMS." Still, I don't think they HAVE come to terms... Anywho, look into that! It was the original ending for Season 2, and I believe it does have some interesting clues, thouhg still vague... Darn it.

The ending they actually filmed is better. In my opinion, the one described above is ruined by the implication that Angel uses her powers to win Roger and arranges to have Beck defeated and Dorothy hustled away so fast that Roger doesn't really get to meet her. All of which implies that Angel didn't really do anything that Roger asked her to do, but was merely more subtle and sneaky this time.

It's a bad ending, and I'm glad they didn't film it.

The implications of the one they DID film (which StevieV019 described admirably) are that everyone keeps their memories and Angel doesn't even try to use her supernatural powers to turn Roger's head. Instead of trying to remake the world in a new configuration each time, she's letting it go forward, so people can make their own futures.

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato The ending they actually filmed is better. In my opinion, the one described above is ruined by the implication that Angel uses her powers to win Roger and arranges to have Beck defeated and Dorothy hustled away so fast that Roger doesn't really get to meet her. All of which implies that Angel didn't really do anything that Roger asked her to do, but was merely more subtle and sneaky this time. It's a bad ending, and I'm glad they didn't film it.

Just a few comments about the original ending. First, Angel doesn't really "win" Roger, she only becomes his assistant. Second, Beck isn't necessarily defeated, he is just chased down by the military police (it never says whether or not he is actually caught). And last, Dorothy and Roger are about to meet when the curtain goes down, so she didn't go anywhere. Angel has nothing to do with the curtain, it is just a stylistic way of ending the episode and the series.

As for me, I don't know which ending would be better. I would have to see the other one animated to decide for sure.

Well, then why don't we try it? I mean, animation isn't all that hard! In fact, I'll put my Flash MX program to work on it RIGHT NOW! (evil laugh ensues) Erm, (cough) yeah. You know that the script's there, all the written work is done, so why not? Now, I'm not sure about how to put the movie up onto this site, but if I find a way, Krang, would you consider putting it up?
Okay, I'm done ranting.

quote:

Originally posted by Mattartist Well, then why don't we try it? I mean, animation isn't all that hard! In fact, I'll put my Flash MX program to work on it RIGHT NOW! (evil laugh ensues) Erm, (cough) yeah. You know that the script's there, all the written work is done, so why not?

Sounds like a good possibility. The only problem is that some of the details aren't described, so they would have to be improvised.

quote:

Now, I'm not sure about how to put the movie up onto this site, but if I find a way, Krang, would you consider putting it up? Okay, I'm done ranting.

Sure, just email it to me once you're done and I'll add it to the Fan Works section.