What the Hell are you HUMANS thinking? Birds and other winged creatures only!

Mr. ? 11-11-2003 05:05 PM
About the love: Race really shouldnt make a difference, It's up the the person who is looking out for a date. For instance, I am more attracted to Asian women then African. Im I racist? No, its just my perfrence. Nor does it mean I dont find Africans attractive. Just on the whole...well you know. Religion, again depends on the person "out for love".

If their relgion says its bad and they follow it, well SOL for them.

Gender, on the other hand, is natures way of "helping" us reproudce. I know this is a touchy subject but being "gay" is abnormal. How could we reproudce if 1/2 the population was with a same sex mate? The question is, is someone born gay or do they change during their life?

BTW in case anyone was wondering, I am: A. White B. Christian C. Hetrosexual (stright for those who dont know that).
Schwarzwald 11-11-2003 07:19 PM
well do take in to account that normal is a matter of oppinion...

our emotions could be abnormal.... they could have beena retardation along the line of evolution... and love is one of those malfunctions..
Schwarzwald 01-11-2004 07:06 PM
*manical laughter*

Ok....

Todays subject! Drugs...

I am sure many of us know people who suffer from atleast minor depression...

and we ALL know that there is medicine for it... and this medicine is suppost it fix that "chemical imbalance" that I bet NO ONE who doesn't have depression understands is suppost to make you feel more happy....

But of course most of us don't want to take this....

Why do we not want to take it... is it simply the reason that it has side affects or its unnatural?

Please give you opinion on these drugs... SHOULD we be taking them?

ANd be serious... for this is a serious fourm... and I can be serious when I want to be serious... do therefor...

Be serious... or I will rant to you endlessly...
Lady Tesser 01-11-2004 07:55 PM
I'm in support of voluntary use of anti-depressants. It must be made clear that I do NOT advocate the forcing of individuals to take anti-depressants when they do not wish to. I'm only offering my POV.

I had been diagnosed with chronic depression when I was 14 - at that time, the use of anti-depressants was minor and not-quite-known. I entered therapy for several years, until I had a near-suicidal breakdown my junior year in high school.

My therapist suggested anti-depressants. "If you find it doesn't work, you can quit." I tried it.

I was able to FUNCTION. I still wrote, felt emotions, and reacted the same as I did. I was still the same, save for the fact that I did not feel like the world was crushing me. I found I was able to focus more, my mind seemed less chaotic. I was still Jillian, but I felt like a functioning person rather than an existing lump of darkness.

I was riled against by classmates who believed I was taking the 'easy way out', that I was trying to avoid the usual 'teen angst'. I still had teen angst (thank God I finally grew up) but I wasn't locking myself in my room and writing suicidal poetry like everyone expected.

When I had quit my anti-depressants (a year after HS graduation), the darkness returned. I locked myself in my room for days on end. I hated everything - my family, my home, my job, my life. I was feeling suicidal again. I tried to 'fix' myself with self-help and mental exercises, which made me even more depressed.

By the time of my marriage, I went back on anti-depressants and went back to functioning. I also realized that my job was killing me and I told my boss to shove it sideways with a palm tree. If I did not start the anti-depressants again, I would have died at my job both physically and spiritually.

The only side effect I had was noted when I was married - it killed my sex drive. That's the only disadvantage I could list involving my use of anti-depressants. Oh, and my PMS was VERY mild while on them - that was worth it all by itself.

I have been on three different types of anti-depressants over a one year period (after I was married). One worked, another did nothing, and the last made me feel worse. Currently, I cannot afford any.

Right now, I'm attempting to function. I'm attending college and planning on working in the theatre again. I have been writing for several years - my writing has not been affected by any anti-depressant usage or non-usage, my work and frequency has been constant.

Are anti-depressants for everyone with depression? Very likely not. There are people who believe they can fix themselves on their own (if they're able to, more power to them!) and there are others who believe anti-depressants interfer with their 'life experience' and there are those who think drugs of any kind are evil. There is also a group in which anti-depressants won't even affect one way or another. I'm one who prefers them so I can function like a real human being because I know they work for me.
Schwarzwald 01-11-2004 08:52 PM
Now THATS information I like to hear...
unlike those foolish consulers...

So they really only made you feel like... not as crushing? Sort of a slight numbness in taht subject?

Thats more assuring... if i am ever to take such a drug I don't want it to affect my character...

Er...

These drugs... so many I have seen that after time can change your character... someone who is very secretive could suddenly become very open and if drugged enough a babbeling idiot...

although... one way of looking at it... remember the asprin conflict? The more and longer you take them later in life they won't be as strong and will only make the aches worse? Depending on the person and these drugs the affect could be the same...

say you have been taking these drugs for a few years and you have been feeling ok... at the begining you feel alright... people don't seem as replusive or suspecting...

2 years go by taking these drugs and you get used to it...

another year and these seem to be wearing off a bit... you ask if you can take another and your doctor approves..

6 years later you are taking 3 a day... and when the wear off you slowly go into mad thinking... you were so used to the moderate bliss that in comparison the world seems very dull and bland....


its all the minds comparison.... so many of these drugs conlfict with the mind and not only chemically... but phycoligicly....

heck that anti-depression pill you could be taking is pure suger... and all your feeling is a small jolt in energy...being that one of the simptoms... loss of energy(or atleast feeling like it)....




Also most of the people who suggest these don't really know what its like....... personally I like it this way...well...I mean the view point part.... when you are alone you have plenty of time to think.... think about what the devil is going on in this world and all that is unjust... the greatests works of writing have come from these people... but until they are dead often no one wants to listen to thier views...

It all comes down to other peoples impressions....

Someone could have depression but feel ok... of course that is without all the discrimination from the higher social jocks and preps... its really how other people treat you that first lead you to the point of breaking.... that or self riticul.... it was only over the last summer that I began to really think about this world.... and how this generation lacks in what I choose to see....

impressions...

The drug........


The drug should really only be taken if you are truly feeling hopeless.... such a drug can just make you feel even worse in the future if abused... And agian you should really talk with someone who can deeply trust first... not some jerk faced person who is paid to deal with it... and I mean DEEPLY.... not your average friend.... heck this person may not even be your parents... I haven't talked about this to them... only a certain friend...a TRUE friend I cannot enforce enough!!!!!!
heck, most of the jocks and preps I can EASILY say don't know the meaning of true....
evanASF27 01-11-2004 09:04 PM
HiI'm Evan and I've been in serious depression for 2 years
everyone- HI EVAN...

Tongue

Well, I don't take drugs for that. But I do take drugs for something else. When I was little I wasn't doing to well in school...I wasn't dumb or anything but my parents found out what was "wrong" with me. I had ADD (attention defisit disorder...SPELLING PLEASE?!) ... which means that I don't naturally concentrate or focus n the task at hand. Which iswhy at times I can be very random (hence the Zenigata relationship Tongue ).

I took rediline (sp?) for elemtary school and and then switched to other drugs for middle school and high school. I don't mind that it changes me Smile I think it helped me really. I wasn't getting anywhere when I wasn't focused, but now I feel like I can really achieve something due to the drugs I take.

Depression only really hit me when school really got to be a huge pain (work and people wise) :-/ But that isn't too bad at the moment. The suicide attempts are what get to you. I regret trying to do that at times...but I think that if I died, it wouldn't be too bad.


Anyways, Drugs are ok, unless they REALLY mess withyou....that's all I have to say Smile
Lady Tesser 01-11-2004 09:11 PM
Agreed, there is always the possibility of building a tolerance. Like your aspirin example, the body gets used to the dosage and such.

I don't know if it's the same with anti-depressants, as the longest consecutive time I've taken them is three years. I'd have to ask someone who's been taking them for several years if there is any loss of effectiveness with their usual dosage.

I absolutely encourage a 'support system' - the true friend that you mentioned. It helps when there is an outsider to remind you it isn't as bad as you think it is. I don't mean how crappy the world is, but just the emotional darkness experienced within our mind which can cloud our perspective.

I used to babysit a boy with attention deficit disorder with hyperactivity. He took Ritalin, too, which REALLY altered his behavior. I asked him what it was like and he said 'The Ritalin slows my head down enough to catch up with my body.' I asked him if he liked it and he replied 'Kinda. People treat me better when I'm calm, but I still want to run all over the place.' He was ten when I asked him this. He's 15 now, so I'll probably ask him again if I see him.
Manji 01-11-2004 09:15 PM
Aie, drugs...

I myself am not depressed, in fact I enjoy just about everything. When I was back in Ele. School though I was perphaps depressed, but something changed in 7th Grade, something hit me like a brick, and I don't really know what it was. I do know that whatever it was that changed me, gave me something, a reason to live, a reason to enjoy life if you will. I suddenly found great joy in everything I did, and still do, even if they are things I don't really want to do.

I never had to take these drugs, and I myself am glad I never did, because I'm not a big fan of the idea of it changing someones perceptions of life. I also realize that I was quite lucky, and others haven't had the same fortune.

I don't know what else to add, it seems that drugs are everyones opinion, and thier own decision, my view points are very strong, but they hard to make others understand on this subject.
The Fallen Phoenix 11-03-2004 08:44 PM
Long ago, this was a fairly active thread here in the Speakeasy...it attracted a host of individuals with its pseudo-philisophical questions, and several different theses, antitheses, and syntheses were developed concerning a multiplicity of ideas were forged.

It started as a response to a couple of fairly immature (in my eyes, at least) threads, but evolved into something so much more...unfortunately, this thread ultimately passed away, as most threads do.

However, I feel it might be time to revive it...Soltha_Sil presented several intriguing topics that encompassed many ideas that had been (or would have been) discussed in this very thread, and I think that was great!

Now, the subject for today is one that has been beaten to death several times in the past...however, it is one which has always had the same results...

What I'm talking about, of course, is Love. And it is a subject that has been brought up on these forums before (several times), but the conclusions was always the same: the discussion tended to deviate towards a debate on whether it (that is to say, romantic love) truly existed. Yet Love is so much more than that!

In order to stir some ideas, I propose my own thesis on what love truly is...it is a synthesis of ideas, really, ranging from those presented from Plato's Symposium (a read I'd reccomend to anyone) to the Catholic ideal. However, I did add my own twist to the subject, by discussing a type of love that I feel is always overshadowed by the more exotic forms of love: that is to say, the love between friends.

Love: it is simultaneously humanity’s greatest blessing and humanity’s greatest curse. It is an emotion subservient to none other, an emotion beyond human control. Yet, at the same time, it is much more than a simple emotion. Hatred, fear, despair: they are emotions. Unlike love, however, these emotions are one-dimensional: never can they provide pleasure, only pain. Love, by contrast, has the unique capability to allow one to wrap oneself in a mantle of warmth, yet still suffer. Plato, through his own discourse of love, contends (through Socrates) that though there are different levels of love, the two visions of love that are highest are romantic love (that which resonates from the heart) and divine love (that which voices the nature of the soul). In a way, this contention (elevating divine love above all others, with romantic love a close second) is true: his contention that love is neither human nor divine, satisfaction nor suffering, beauty nor ugliness is correct, as is his contention that true love is eternal. Yet, in his desire to inspire for the highest love, that which is meant to bind all other loves together, Plato loses sight of one of the most essential kinds of live known to humankind.

Love can provide both pleasure and pain. Christians, who build on Plato’s vision of love, assert this pain originates from sacrificing one’s entire self to service: a service one undertakes because love binds all humans together and distinguishes not, regardless of how horrible or heroic a person might be. Christians also assert this suffering originates from the absence of God: that one’s longing for eternal beauty is so great the heart cannot help but bleed. Again, all of this is certainly true, and is surely indicative of the highest, purest vision of love. Yet both these visions still lack a key element.

These are visions of love which reside not in the mortal world; rather, they are expressions of love which bind the physical and spiritual worlds together. It is in my opinion that Plato seems to assert that only those forms of love (that which resides outside the realm of mortals) can be free of material corruption. Love is not those physical pleasures connected with the world: money, sex, power, and lust. Love is not simply self-fulfilling. Once again, I find myself in perfect agreement with Plato, yet I still feel he’s missing something: he leaves out the expression of love which does nearly everything associated with divine love, yet originates in the mortal world! It is a type of love which is not dependent on God alone, yet a type of love which still provides both pleasure and pain. It is another form of love that, I believe, originates from the soul.

I am discussing platonic love between friends, the love which binds them together and thrives in fellowship. It is a love which, while admittedly is not nearly as high as divine love, is certainly above romantic love. One might argue Plato does discuss this love, through the characters Phaedrus and Pausanius. After all, both seem to advocate a love between brothers, a love meant to life both lover and beloved to a higher level of truth and life. Plato places this form of love at the bottom of his ladder, and with good reason: while these visions of love certainly have their virtues, they do not go far enough: they focus only on the self-gratification derived from love. This, I feel, is a corruption of the love which I advocate to you now.

The love betwixt friends is a love closest to Plato’s ideal love. Friends do not come and go like the seasons; friends do not ebb and flow like the ever changing tides. A true friend lasts forever: a true friend is eternal. True friends will meet again in the perpetual bliss of heaven, long after their worldly bodies expire. Platonic love, like divine love, will not end in death. True friendship, much like eternal, divine love, has both its pleasures and its pains. True friends will always suffer together: when one is in great pain, so is the other. A true friend cannot bear to see his fellow friend in pain, and will do whatever it is in his power to lift his friend out of the torturous seas of despair. It is then that the wonders of platonic love reveal themselves: when Likewise, a true friend will derive pleasure from the happiness of his fellow friend. And if a friend can help contribute to this happiness—that is when the wonders of platonic love reveal themselves. Through the expression of this love, the love between friends, God is most visible. Without friendship, I myself could definitively say that I have never seen God, and never would see God. It is through an everlasting friendship that the true nature of humans emerge.

Immortality, beauty, pain, and pleasure are all staples of the platonic love present between friends. It is a love which cannot be controlled, it is a love which reveals the inner beauty of all creation. It possesses those same qualities as that love meant to raise humanity from the physical world to the spiritual world: the love Christians call Jesus.

Comforting a friend who has lost a loved one as tears stream down your face: that is love.

Celebrating with a friend who has just achieved some measure of greatness, even if you yourself has failed: that is love.

Embracing a friend who has lost sight of himself, a friend who has retreated into a shell of self-hatred while denying the existence of the very love which was present around him: that is love.

Is it a love which can be acquired through God? Is it a love that exists in heaven, outside the realm of mortality? Certainly.

It is also a love that is right here, on this very earth, on these very forums.

“To love another person is to see the face of God.” It is a line from Les Miserables’ finale, as Jean Valjean finally departs the world for the afterlife.

Truer words have never been uttered.


---
I hope this, at the very least, sparks some thought...I'd certainly appreciate responses, whether they be critiques of my vision of love or presentations of their own. Big Grin It is my desire that, through a healthy debate on this topic, we might discover what the highest ideal of love really is...

Not surprisingly, I value the love between friends as being the purest love of all...and that which should be valued above all others.

So, enough of what I feel, think, and believe. What about you?
Asirt 11-03-2004 08:59 PM
Ah, love... Smile ) Well, I like your thesis on the subject, The Fallen Phoenix. It is a big subject that has been brought up many, many times. Personally, this is what I think:

Love can come in many forms. It doesn't have to be the type of love between a man and a women, but rather there is other forms of loves as well. One example is the love you have for your friends. They are the ones who care for you, and enjoy being with you. Also, loving your family is another great example. Your family is the one that cares for you the most, and most of the time, this is true.

I think the reason why love, as FP said, can be a curse as well, is because it can be broken. That is where sorrow and torment takes over. You feel that no one cares about you, yet people do. This is true for boyfriends and girlfriends. Those who like a person, but end up being rejected, are filled with sorrow, and have no faith in the future.

Basically, love is a never ending mystery that is always being debated a lot.

Later,
Trisa
Dude Love 11-03-2004 09:20 PM
Ahh, the age old question of Love. Certainly a subject which involves much to be debated.

My views on Love:

Love is easily the most important emotion. It is the major determining factor in how we interact with people. Any person you encounter and get to know, you are establishing some sort of bond. Once that bond is beyond the level of acquaintance, Love steps in.

That still has not answered the question, however. I, as FP does, argue that love is not just romantic. It seems to be a plague lately as to whether not love exists, because people get upset after one's boyfriend leaves them. However, when you come and talk about it with your friends, neighbors, or fellow Paradigmers, what bond do you think inspired you to discuss it? I argue that it would be the bond of Love. Not exactly the most compelling argument, but one all-the-same.

Basically, my proof for love (and love beyond romanticism) is going to fall on one quote from FP's post:

Embracing a friend who has lost sight of himself, a friend who has retreated into a shell of self-hatred while denying the existence of the very love which was present around him: that is love.

Now, certainly, this is very explicit. First of all, for the purpose of discussion, we're going to assign names. We'll assign the name "James" to the person who has lost sight of himself, and the names "Christian", "Evan", and "Kevin" to the people doing the consolation. Now, what duty do the three consolers have? What compells these three characters to embrace James? Could it be simple kindness? But, wouldn't that facilitate that James would not come out of his shell? Wouldn't James need to have a pre-established relationship with Christian, Evan, and Kevin?

The answer is yes. Otherwise, there would have been no success. So, what would that bond have been? Love, of course! Love is the only emotion that can get to the core of any human being. Love is the only emotion which can open the soul of another. Only when one senses those he loves around himself can one feel truly secure.

So, with this example, I have not only proven that Love exists, but also that Love is not only romantic (It's not like James, Christian, and Kevin are romantic partners). I thank you for the time you spent reading this post. I know it may appear at times to be convoluted, and I apologize for that, and thank you for your patience in interpretting my thought process.
dawnstrider 11-03-2004 09:54 PM
Great way to start it off, FP Big Grin .

Hm....love? I like your thesis on love, but seeing as how my thoughts teeter between esotericism and scientific empiricism, I think that "love" could also be put in it's scientific framework.

My theory is that love - like many human emotions that stem from a form of emotional attachment/fixation on another - is a combination of higher cerebral thought patterns and basic survival instincts. Many of the theories presented by several behavioral psychologists - such as Dr. Arthur Janroy - seek to trace the different paths of love to there respective biological incentives. For example, the bond between a parent and a child could be interpreted as an expression of the child's initial dependency and the mother's desire to secure the safety of her offspring. The love between a man or a woman (or whichever combination of genders you so desire) could be interpreted as the expressed dependence of one gender on the other during the period of our proposed human ancestors - Homo Erectus; a time period that signaled the increased helplessness of the human infant at birth, and the "hiding" of estrus in the human female - all of which resulted in the strengthening of human pair bondings for the sake of genetic survival.

Then, of course, there is the much-toted "pack mentality", which is said to provided a reasonably straight-forward explanation of the friend-friend love basis; those that are in the same boat often congregate and share ties in an effort to increase there survival prospects.


Now, what does all that science jargon add up too? That love, as a deep-seated emotion - romantic or otherwise -, is just as likely to be at odds with the more cerebral aspects of our brain as with it. I do believe that it is a strong emotion; however, it's an emotion that could get in the way of more rational thought processes, and hence cause instability. When love dies, it's often because - I believe - our cerebral centers is struggling with the more primal desire to be connected to a person or persons. Sometimes, that can be a good thing - it can save you from making a horrible mistake - but it's always important to keep a clear sight on your sense of self and what is good for you.

I don't mean to reduce love to simply the action of electrical impulses to the brain. Even if the biology can be explained, the thoughts and inspirations that it has caused throughout the ages are created when our minds - both "higher" and "primordial" achieve a balance in love, and that balance, I think, as well as our ability to transcribe it into our cultural frameworks are the true measure of what could be said to distinguish human beings.

I agree with FP about friendship love - the so-called "pack mentality" - being the truest expression of "that" kind of love, but I would argue for another, slightly different kind - altruism.

Altruism may not be considered a love in the "attachment" sense, I think that love can also be defined by actions, and the action that would lead one to sacrifice his/herself for the benefit of a stranger - without it being their "duty" - as a very high expression of "love". But that's my thought. I've yet to see a convincing scientific explanation about the existence of altruism.
Madrona 11-04-2004 12:59 PM
There is a certain mystery about love. Unfortunatley, English has this one word to describe something that is really very hard to describe.

The feeling a mother has when she first feels the kick of life inside her.
There is something very basic, but very exciting when this happens. For me, it was the moment I realized that my life was never going to be the same. That I was capable of feeling that maternal love

The feeling you have when your friends are around you.
quote:
Embracing a friend who has lost sight of himself, a friend who has retreated into a shell of self-hatred while denying the existence of the very love which was present around him: that is love.
I've experienced this here, in these forums. With the friends I have made here. I hope that I have been the friend, or can be the friend that embraces as well. My friends are here. They are many, many miles away, yet only a keystroke away. I know that I have found more love here, in Paradigm, than anywhere else.

That feeling you have when you realize that there is a person you want to spend the rest of your life with.
This romantic love. Oh this one is sooo touchy. So what happens when your friend becomes your romantic interest? And what if this is not returned? Can that friendship be maintained? I have found this difficult personally. But I don't think it's impossible. I'd like to think that base, that initial friendship, that love, is still there.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

Madrona
Zola 11-04-2004 01:12 PM
Love can be a lot of things, but I think it is beautifully expressed in Chapter 21 of "The Little Prince."

quote:
It was then that the fox appeared.

"Good morning," said the fox.

"Good morning," the little prince responded politely, although when he turned around he saw nothing.

"I am right here," the voice said, "under the apple tree."


"Who are you?" asked the little prince, and added, "You are very pretty to look at."

"I am a fox," the fox said.

"Come and play with me," proposed the little prince. "I am so unhappy."

"I cannot play with you," the fox said. "I am not tamed."

"Ah! Please excuse me," said the little prince.

But, after some thought, he added:

"What does that mean--'tame'?"

"You do not live here," said the fox. "What is it that you are looking for?"

"I am looking for men," said the little prince. "What does that mean--'tame'?"

"Men," said the fox. "They have guns, and they hunt. It is very disturbing. They also raise chickens. These are their only interests. Are you looking for chickens?"

"No," said the little prince. "I am looking for friends. What does that mean--'tame'?"

"It is an act too often neglected," said the fox. It means to establish ties."

"'To establish ties'?"

"Just that," said the fox. "To me, you are still nothing more than a little boy who is just like a hundred thousand other little boys. And I have no need of you. And you, on your part, have no need of me. To you, I am nothing more than a fox like a hundred thousand other foxes. But if you tame me, then we shall need each other. To me, you will be unique in all the world. To you, I shall be unique in all the world . . ."

"I am beginning to understand," said the little prince. "There is a flower . . . I think that she has tamed me . . ."

"It is possible," said the fox. "On the Earth one sees all sorts of things."

"Oh, but this is not on the Earth!" said the little prince.

The fox seemed perplexed, and very curious.

"On another planet?"

"Yes."

"Are there hunters on that planet?"

"No."

"Ah, that is interesting! Are there chickens?"

"No."

"Nothing is perfect," sighed the fox.

But he came back to his idea.

"My life is very monotonous," the fox said. "I hunt chickens; men hunt me. All the chickens are just alike, and all the men are just alike. And, in consequence, I am a little bored. But if you tame me, it will be as if the sun came to shine on my life. I shall know the sound of a step that will be different from all the others. Other steps send me hurrying back underneath the ground. Yours will call me, like music, out of my burrow. And then look: you see the grain-fields down yonder? I do not eat bread. Wheat is of no use to me. The wheat fields have nothing to say to me. And that is sad. But you have hair that is the color of gold. Think how wonderful that will be when you have tamed me! The grain, which is also golden, will bring me back the thought of you. And I shall love to listen to the wind in the wheat . . ."

The fox gazed at the little prince, for a long time.

"Please--tame me!" he said.

"I want to, very much," the little prince replied. "But I have not much time. I have friends to discover, and a great many things to understand."

"One only understands the things that one tames," said the fox. "Men have no more time to understand anything. They buy things all ready made at the shops. But there is no shop anywhere where one can buy friendship, and so men have no friends any more. If you want a friend, tame me . . ."

"What must I do, to tame you?" asked the little prince.

"You must be very patient," replied the fox. "First you will sit down at a little distance from me--like that--in the grass. I shall look at you out of the corner of my eye, and you will say nothing. Words are the source of misunderstandings. But you will sit a little closer to me, every day . . ."

The next day the little prince came back.

"It would have been better to come back at the same hour," said the fox. "If, for example, you come at four o'clock in the afternoon, then at three o'clock I shall begin to be happy. I shall feel happier and happier as the hour advances. At four o'clock, I shall already be worrying and jumping about. I shall show you how happy I am! But if you come at just any time, I shall never know at what hour my heart is to be ready to greet you . . . One must observe the proper rites . . ."

"What is a rite?" asked the little prince.

"Those also are actions too often neglected," said the fox. "They are what make one day different from other days, one hour from other hours. There is a rite, for example, among my hunters. Every Thursday they dance with the village girls. So Thursday is a wonderful day for me! I can take a walk as far as the vineyards. But if the hunters danced at just any time, every day would be like every other day, and I should never have any vacation at all."

So the little prince tamed the fox. And when the hour of his departure drew near--

"Ah," said the fox, "I shall cry."

"It is your own fault," said the little prince. "I never wished you any sort of harm; but you wanted me to tame you . . ."

"Yes, that is so," said the fox.

"But now you are going to cry!" said the little prince.

"Yes, that is so," said the fox.

"Then it has done you no good at all!"

"It has done me good," said the fox, "because of the color of the wheat fields." And then he added:

"Go and look again at the roses. You will understand now that yours is unique in all the world. Then come back to say goodbye to me, and I will make you a present of a secret."

The little prince went away, to look again at the roses.

"You are not at all like my rose," he said. "As yet you are nothing. No one has tamed you, and you have tamed no one. You are like my fox when I first knew him. He was only a fox like a hundred thousand other foxes. But I have made him my friend, and now he is unique in all the world."

And the roses were very much embarassed.

"You are beautiful, but you are empty," he went on. "One could not die for you. To be sure, an ordinary passerby would think that my rose looked just like you--the rose that belongs to me. But in herself alone she is more important than all the hundreds of you other roses: because it is she that I have watered; because it is she that I have put under the glass globe; because it is she that I have sheltered behind the screen; because it is for her that I have killed the caterpillars (except the two or three that we saved to become butterflies); because it is she that I have listened to, when she grumbled, or boasted, or ever sometimes when she said nothing. Because she is my rose.

And he went back to meet the fox.

"Goodbye," he said.

"Goodbye," said the fox. "And now here is my secret, a very simple secret: It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."

"What is essential is invisible to the eye," the little prince repeated, so that he would be sure to remember.

"It is the time you have wasted for your rose that makes your rose so important."

"It is the time I have wasted for my rose--" said the little prince, so that he would be sure to remember.

"Men have forgotten this truth," said the fox. "But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed. You are responsible for your rose . . ."

"I am responsible for my rose," the little prince repeated, so that he would be sure to remember.
Schwarzwald 11-04-2004 05:09 PM
Oh my gosh! Fantasic this thread still exists! When I see a good topic I'll be posting in here agian and throwing out those Daemon Preist Junkers.
evanASF27 11-04-2004 05:12 PM
I have a very long and ranting like theory about love.......don't have time to type it now, but I will later. Cool
dawnstrider 11-08-2004 05:32 PM
Uh.............................bump?

.........

(yet another example of the use of internet-related phrases by an awkward relative novice)

Sweatdrop ........well, in any case, just to help keep the discussion and this great thread alive:

I was rather cold and science-orientated in my previous post on what I considered both as the hidden nature of love, and as to what I considered to be the "purest" type of love. I still hold to those ideas, but I wish to dig a bit deeper into what I regard as how love is conducted between human beings Smile (Without the grim, slice-and-dice, "you-are-little-more-than-a-sentient-rock", hardcore reductionist view).

Looking back at how I regard love and its place in my life and the lives of those around me that I see, I could some it up in one phrase, really: EFFORT. Seriously, I don't think that the feelings that lead up to love between individuals surmount to the mysterious or nebulous "feel" that is often attributed to the emotion (indeed, I feel that approach to the nature of love is more destructive than romantic). Love isn't something that just happens, no matter of which type you are speaking. It involves a collection of different experiences and emotions as well. I think that trust is a firm bedrock for love, because many of the relationships in which I have participated - amid various roles and degrees - started with just getting to know and really trust that person; to trust them enough to let them get close to you, and to try to cement something that carries a risk for you both if it doesn't work out.

Mutual understanding and respect are also important points in the way that love is perceived. Once that trust has been established, it must be built upon by a mutual sense of understanding of each other's perspectives and thought patterns, and - perhaps a little more difficult - a respect for those individual traits. I have seen many a developing relationship sidetracked by a lack of the proceeding on one side or the other. And it doesn't end there, because one has proximity to sort out - how often you meet, how you get along for extended periods of time, and etc. These, I believe, are not extra things that simply might come along when you fall in love; they are intrinsic parts of the process, and whether they come before or after the point at which you perceived you "fell in love", they must come along at some point, or else how can one measure the value of your love in the face of every possible scenario?

Those accompanying emotions and circumstances - trust, respect, understanding, and proximity - are just general for all types of emotional love - whether they are romantic or platonic, passionate or compassionate. Every individual type of love comes with its own baggage and mental wrestling. That's why I'm so skeptical of "love at first site"; how can you "love" someone without knowing anything about them? Even if it is love, it is only, in my opinion, an emotional reaction to a shadow - a visage of a person that you have projected based on your own imagination and scant observations - without regard as to what that person is truly like. Two things I take to heart: Never judge based on appearances and perceptions, and people are usually more complex in their motivations than they may appear.

That said, however, I like to say that the love that emerges from the hard-shelled chrysalis is a beautiful and sturdy thing; it gives and takes, and shares; it may sometimes argue, sometimes compromise, but will usually emerge from every threat to it's foundation stronger than before. This, I think, is the true idealization of love; something that may not be perfect, but is grounded enough in its own reality to survive every harsh blow that can be directed to it. Connecting this to FP's question - and my previous point - the platonic love between friends is strongest in this regard, because of its nature; it's less likely to form under pretense then the others; mutual respect and understanding might be easier to accomplish with peers of like mind; and, of course, it is a representation of a bond that is formed with flexibility in its framework. There are less social patterns and guidelines that need to be respected at all times; I value every love tie that is present in my life, but when I am with a very close friend of mine, I felt a connection that was at once closer and more casual than my ties to family, or my ex-girlfriends, or others. It's that combination that makes the platonic tie so strong in my life.

These are based on my own experiences, and are open to any individual descent. And, of course, you may very well argue against it. But this approach is how I've lived, and my intentions probably won't change until my mind does. And who knows when that will happen, seriously.

....bit more than I intended to write...but, meh, whatever Smile .

Peace Cool