What the Hell are you HUMANS thinking? Birds and other winged creatures only!

The Fallen Phoenix 08-28-2003 05:06 PM
I agree with you Manji.

I refuse to judge another Human, since it is not my place to do so.

Just a reminder...you all have 2 hours to post your responses to the 2 latest questions ("Loyalty" and "Train") before I post my responses and go onto the next 2 questions!

The clock is ticking...Big Grin
Schwarzwald 08-28-2003 07:58 PM
EDIT: oh uhh turn on "name of god for a little emotion... but i am serious here... If you ever see gate keepers 21 you will know who my fav char is... and what i suspect the thread title came from...

ahhh... a true question.... hmm.. well after this thread... my obsetion with schwarzwald......

Im going to say.... hu... please don't hurt me on this phe eople...

I want to learn about reality... about god ... about parrell dementions... I want to know the unknown... know how to time travel... know about immortailty and the past... about the human mind and how it innturrets such things AS god and death... I want to know all... I want to know the dangers of reaity... I want to know the secarts of space and time... I want to know how and if You can travel toa parrael dimention.... I want to know if the 5th demontion REALLY exists...

I want to know all....

I grant immortailty to the ones who are worthy... I want to know (if there is agod out there) how he became one.. watch over the earth with my immortal friends... creat a new existance... a pure... wreakless humans.... mabey a few... peaceful ones... living with the wild... helping the earth and not trying to take over.... I want to live in peace without these blasted over optimistic people... I want to teach them how they should take and USE such a life... not have them waist it on ruining others constantly...... I want to know... even if it frives me insain... I'll be happy right? insain? even if there is no god... I want to know... even if i do become insaine... I'll be out of touch with reaity and not be so angry or having to put up with such things... I want to know... I want to know HOW to create... I want a world of my own... I want to live with people who can make a peaceful living without taking the ones of another....

Edit: ok...well after devolpmenet there... i want o come back to such an earth and SHOW them what life could be like if they dissarmed everything... i want to attemt to persuade them... to atleast stop the wars and terrorist attacks... and such... it would take quite a long time... but they would eventully get the idea and not be so crule(idea peace can never be accomplished)....

oh course if there is no way to create out of just though or... becomeing a god... i will just share my knowledge with whom ever i wish to speak it too... they can beleive me or not... just so long they don't kill me for their oppin oius being different... someone will beleive.... and someday it may pass on....
The Fallen Phoenix 08-28-2003 10:44 PM
(Damn it...I had all of this ready to post and I accidentally deleted it all...so I had to retype all of this...so it's not as high of a quality as it originally was. Embarrassed Sweatdrop )

I gave you all an extra THREE Hours...so that's it. See the subject. Your time is up. Big Grin

Here are my answers, followed by the next round of questions...

[insert The Name of God theme]

Question 1: Conflicting Loyalties

1. Loyalty to one's family
2. Loyalty to one's lover
3. Loyalty to one's friends
4. Loyalty to one's self
5. Loyalty to one's mentor
6. Loyalty to one's religion
7. Loaylty to one's country
8. Loyalty to Society

Okay...you're probably wondering, "What the hell?" Don't write me off as crazy just yet...let me explain.

I understand (and completely subscribe) with what others have said when answering their question...that if you do not accept yourself, you cannot accept anything.

HOWEVER (and this is a big However. Big Grin )

I must also take into account other factors before answering this question. Now, all of my reasons that will be outlined below are working on my personal interpretation of the question. It is no more correct than other's interpretations.

When I read this question, it seems to me...there are conflicting ideals taking place.

A situation in which you must choose which you will uphold, and which you will let go.

For example, my mind thinks up a hypothetical situation...in which I must choose between my hopes, my dreams, my ideals...and my family.

My mind thinks up a hypothetical situation in which I can stand and watch my lover killed, or intervene at the risk of my own life.

Again, I interpret the question as saying: When these loyalties are in direct conflict, how would you rank them? Which would be more important to you?

And my answer...my beliefs, dreams, hopes, aspirations...my entire being...

Is not worth my family.

If I had a choice, in which all of my dreams could come true, at the expense of my family...

I would have to refuse.

Not because I am trying to be the hero.

But because they are a part of my Self. Without my family, I would not be who and what I am today.

Lover would rank on about the same tier...they are as good as tied. I thought long and hard, but could not come up with an answer on whether I would choose my family over my lover or vice-versa if the situation arose. I put family up first, but lover should be right beside it.

My friends...see the answer to family. They helped shape my Self...without them, my Self would not be the same...and would not be worth staying loyal to.

If I am to stay loyal to my Self, it would have to be (nearly) my entire Self. Not a small slice of it.

My mentor...I have a real mentor. Not just a teacher...but also a close friend. He's done a lot for me over hte past few years, and he's the one that first presented me with the dreaded Train question when we were discussing philosophy one day (leaving from Six Flags Great Adventure in New Jersey, nontheless. Embarrassed Sweatdrop )

He is definately very close behind my Self. I'd say they are about equal...however, I could not put my mentor above it outright because that would belittle my Self too much, I think.

All the teachers I have had in my life, as well as my mentor, have also played a role in shaping my Self...and therefore are very important to me.

Religion...I am a Catholic, not as devout as I would like to be, but I am religious...and religion is important to me.

But I would never give up my family, friends, lover, mentor, and Self for religion. I just couldn't. They mean so much more to me.

I love America...I am quite the Patriot. However, again, it isn't nearly as important as everything else on the list. New York City would rank fairly high though. Laughing

Society...well, no need to explain myself there. See others' posts, they do a good job of explaining why it's all the way down here. Big Grin

So, that is my answer to Conflicting Loyalties...now, onto the big one...


Question 2: The Train

The key to answering this question...lies in the question itself. Specifically, in the wording. Below is the question, quoted word for word, except I bolded the most important parts.

As for the encrypted response I gave before...it should read (not exactly...to lazy to unencrypt it..the key to the encryption was I took ever letter and added 1 to it...so it was the next letter in the alphabet. Big Grin ...for example: "a" becomes "b", "c" becomes "d", etc.)

There is a way to answer the question...without being guilty of killing anyone.

Yes, people will die (that is unavoidable), but you can answer the question in a way that you will not be guilty of killing them (at least, it should help you feel less guilt...it makes me feel less guilt).

quote:
You are on a train. The train is travelling very fast, so fast that it cannot be stopped. However, on the track you are currently on you realize there are 15 track workers. If you do not do anything, the track workers will surely be killed. You do have a chance to save their lives...just a few moments before the collision you will have a chance to switch to another track. However, you know that on the other track there is 1 person, and that if you switch tracks he will not survive.

What do you do? Stay on the track you are on, letting the 15 track workers die and sparing the 1, or switch tracks, sparing the 15 track workers and killing the 1?


Those 2 sentences are key...

Do you Let the track workers die or Kill the one?

And yes, there is a moral difference.

Consider the situation...you are on the train. There is no time to stop it, no time to get out of the way.

You were not aware of the track workers when you started up the train and accelerated it. (This is stated in the question: "you realize there are 15 workers")

If you do nothing, you are letting the events happen...doing nothing to intervene. You are not killing them, but let...for lack of better word, I'll use fate, intervene. Indeed, there is no other option. Therefore, you can't be considered guilty of killing them.

But wait! You say. There is another option!

I answer: Is there?

Yes, you can switch to the other track...

But as stated in the question, you know there is a single worker there.

So, by switching tracks, completely aware of this, you are guilty of killing the track worker.

You chose to kill him...true, it was to save the lives of 15, but you still took it upon yourself and put his life in your hands.

No, you aren't being malicious...you aren't meaning much harm...

But the fact of the matter is, you are guilty of killing the worker. There is no getting around this fact. Morally, you are guilty of killing him.

So is there really another option?

I woudl stay on the track..true, I will live the rest of my life with the knowledge that I let 15 track workers die.

But I'd rather live with that than with the knowledge that I stole a human life, fully aware of what I was doing.

Even if it were to save 15.

I'm sorry, but I can't take it upon myself to put another's life in my hands. I will gladly risk my own, but I can't think of a justification of risking another without their consent.

And that is my answer to the Train Question.

-----

Now, the next stop in the land of Hypotheticals:

What he Deserves

This'll be a fun one...

You are walking down the street. It is early in the evening, a full moon, and the street is very well lit. Suddenly, you hear gunshots. Looking ahead of you, you can see someone with a gun out, pointing it to a fallen body on the ground. The person on the ground is dead. The killer rushes past you, but not before you get a good look of his face. A face you'll never forget.

A few days later, you are walknig down the same street at approximately the same time, when you hear the sound of someone loading a gun. You glance into an alleyway ahead of you, and you see the same murderer from a few days ago...except someone has a gun to his head. They seem to be in a conversation, so you have the oppurtunity to intervene and try to save the murderer's life...

However, you still remember the event of a few days ago. That man is still a murderer.

What do you do? Walk quickly past, pretending you saw and heard nothing, do you attempt to intervene? Do you just stand there and watch as the murderer gets what he deserves?

There's no time to get help. The only way to save the murderer is if you intervene.

But does he deserve to live after shooting down a man in cold blood?

---

Now, the second question (it isn't a hypothetical):

The Worst that can Happen

What is the worst crime a human being can commit, outside of intentionally taking another life?

Cosmic Horizon is the limit here. What is the worst crime a Human can commit? (Excluding murder, so that we might get more variety).

Murder pertains to all life, including humans, animals, plants, etc.

But if you honestly think murder is the worst, go ahead and say so...but also include the second worst crime then. And give explanatios too! Big Grin


Whew...that's it. 9548 characters total, this post. Took me over an hour to write.

I have too much time on my hands. Embarrassed Sweatdrop
evanASF27 08-28-2003 11:01 PM
*read only 1/20 of that post Sleeping *
ok ... so my answer was right for the train question Big Grin YEAH!!! Cool
Jeff 08-29-2003 02:19 AM
WHAT HE DESERVES

Okay im not going to lie. If this were to happen in real life I would probably run away like a little pussy, so ill just say what I would WANT to do. I would help the man. Yes, he took it upon himself to murder another man, but this other man is doing the same exact thing. For all you know he doesnt know anything about the previous murderer, and is just some thug out to kill someone. We also dont know the story behind the first man. He could have possibly killed the other man out of self defence, or he could have been a murderer, theres just no way of telling, so ill just leave my answer at this.

THE WORST THAT CAN HAPPEN

Taking the life of another is probably the biggest crime, but in my opinion suicide is not much worse. Its sad when a person loses all hope and all they want to do is die. Suicide is a crime against ones self. Its depressing to think that a person could kill themself, not knowing what is in store for them, and missing out on a possible brighter future. Whether it be because of depression, hate for ones self, a cult, or any other reason, people just end their own lives like that. Its really sad to think about.
Schwarzwald 08-29-2003 05:30 AM
What he deserves...

Ok... well we can all agree suicide is an escape right? a risky but an escape from the pains and aches of reality... after killing someone many people are sure to be harrasing him... and his concius might be paining him too.... I wouldn't interfear.... it's completely understandable... people live thier lives in thier own way... and the can end it in thier own... they have all the choices over thier own life...

Whats the worst that could happen...

Tourcher(bah may have spelled that worng)... just enough pain without letting the person die... people die to escape pain... Just the constant screaming is haunting enough for the person doing the tourchering... i mean... think... would you rather have a quick gunshot to the head? or suffer a gas bomb and literally cough up a lung...and sufficate... just die... or unspeakable pain... i mean it bogols the mind how those nazis could take all the moaning adn screaming... watching all the dead bodies burn... just all the crying.... If i were one... i would either kill them or me... my god... its just friken insaine how they could put up with all that... unless they did it out of fear of tthem and thier family being killed...but its still must be really hard...

Edit: of and i suppose question 2... well... id have to switch tracks... i mean... sure... you have killed someone... although id hesitate for both... still i think id choose the other... its like what america did in WW2... they used two bombs on japan... killed thoousands... but the war ended and saved millions.... plus... look at all the harrasment you would get from public and newspaper... i mean people would be trying to kill you for letting all 15 die... atleast mabey the one who died and be looked at in honor...if he hadn't the rest would... if there is he could go to such a heaven... i'll go to jail... mabey be killed by his family... but... thats why people commit suicide... it just a way out... simple and quick... so many do it... it may just become acommon thing... noone would really care anymore.. just a cold world...
Schwarzwald 08-29-2003 07:28 PM
Double posting because of new question...side note to admins...

well noone has replyed to this much more... (side note i edited my post at the top) mabey i could start a new question....hmm?

well how about this... can peace ever be truely obtained?
You should first say WHAT KIND OF PEACE!!! one where everyone is happy? no war? just not fighting? what?
and then stat how it may or... if not say... how it could be done or not done....

Well... here is my responce... ok... I'll say peace can be obtained...

but not a peace where every one is "happy"... a peace where well... not much fighting... and no war....

The only way to optain peace in todays cercumstances.... is fear...
pure fear... look at 9/11... see how amercans all joined togetther out of saddness and fear that they might die?
Peace must start with fear of something out of earth boundries... mabey an ailen race?... or... something.... or mabey just nothing that they think is there.... think aout it... when your scared... how often do you want someone with you?... pretty often.... (at least with me)...

but it can be just something like giant spiders.... something big that can't be explained... people fear the unknown... everyone values earth... they will do all they can to pretect it.... and once they (think) eliminate the threat... they might just understand that they CAn join....
there will still be fighting amongst people.... not wanting to join america... but you can never stop a humans eurg for fighting and force....

they could make a "united nation" (wuzzah)... just no need for passports... just... sharing wealth and supporting wach other in thier needs...

over time they could get RID of currency... and mabey most will be not as greedy and do their share work for what they take...

yes after they eliminate the unexisting threat... it would be a LONG time before they even begin happy peace.... but its only human nature... their minds... playing tricks in the dark... seeing things others don't.... inturrpeting what god IS and if he exists...
their can be an accupation to help people define thier euges and try to not make them as strong(you can't eliminate them completely)...

yeah long... but thats mine... how about YOU... this thread wouldn't exist without... Viewers like you... pbs.... your local friendly spide....pubic broadcasting station....
The Fallen Phoenix 08-29-2003 09:20 PM
Yeah...I don't know why there aren't as many repsonses as before...then again I haven't seen many of them browsing the forums lately, that might be why...

Your question...how can Peace be obtained?

True peace...eliminating all war, all suffering...

Exterminate the Human race. That is the only way.
Schwarzwald 08-29-2003 09:22 PM
ahhh yes plain and simple... or we could let ourselves me consumed by mutons(I think) from berserker: guts rage on teh dreamcast... fro anyone who plays it... you know ... the nun... the ones who were taken were always happy.... don't attack unless threatened or teh saplings were pulled from teh ground.... this will make o sence to people who haven't played the game...



EDIT: OH fallen pheonix... iv been wondering... "birds and other winged creatures only?" is that from gate keepers 21?
Jeff 08-29-2003 09:37 PM
Ah, i remember that game. I didnt own it myself, but a friend of mine had it. He never could defeat that Balsac guy. (What a name...) Very freaky story is all I can say, but it did make sence.
Schwarzwald 08-29-2003 09:52 PM
I loved the story! it was classic... any ways... noone really seems to be comeing to this thread anymore... hmm.. nothing really interesting to talk about... we already got on with god and such... it was good while it lasted... unl;ess we can think of something to keep it alive.
Jeff 08-29-2003 09:56 PM
Theres gotta be some other topic to discuss.....

*thinks*
Schwarzwald 08-29-2003 10:00 PM
how about religous conversion? or... how do you think people came up with GOD and such... or... religoius experinces... of wait already did the religoius experiances on " a ture irrational emotion" in smith mansion..

hmm.... how the world will end? we can do that agian?
Jeff 08-29-2003 10:17 PM
How will the world end?

So many possibilities there. Heres some of my views.

THE MANMADE END OF THE WORLD

1)We will destroy our planet with our own weapons: This seems to be the most likely view of the outcome of the world nowadays. Damned Nuclear Missiles. Oh well, at least the cockroaches will be happy.

2)Pollution: If the missiles dont get us, the toxic fumes will! Pollution is a bigger problem then some people think it is. I hate when people just throw stuff on the ground. Would it really hurt to just hold onto something until you reach a garbage. And then some people give the "Well the world is polluted enough already" excuse. Why make it worse?

THE NATURALLY CAUSED END OF THE WORLD

Really not too much to say about these except that one of these(or something I missed) WILL happen if we dont destroy ourselves. But hell, id rather see the world end naturally than because of mankind.

1)Giant Meteor

2)Another Ice Age

3)Global Warming

4)Alien Invasion

And that about all I can come up with...
major pain 08-29-2003 10:22 PM
ok, im confused

hey thats a surprise me being confused Roll Eyes
The Fallen Phoenix 08-29-2003 11:09 PM
Actually, we are in the midst of an ice age...average temperature is higher than it was several millenia ago.

You also forget, when the Sun balloons into a Red Giant...Earth will be engulfed. Big Grin

Man...I posted those 2 new questions..and what? 2 responses? Mad
Schwarzwald 08-30-2003 03:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix
Actually, we are in the midsts of an ice age...average temperature is higher than it was several millenia ago.

You also forget, when the Sun balloons into a Red Giant...Earth will be engulfed. Big Grin

Man...I posted those 2 new questions..and what? 2 responses? Mad


well we did do it before... and well... atleast i can't think of anything new...
The Fallen Phoenix 09-03-2003 06:03 PM
Well...I am dissapointed with the lack of responses...where'd all the intellectual discussions go? Confused Oh well, 'twas fun while it lasted. Big Grin

The worst crime Humans can commit is rape. That is what I believe.

Rape represents everything that a Human should not be--a monster, a creature that denies respect, denies the very rights we Humans are entitled to, and a creature that denies their own humanity.

Rape is a violation...and not necessarily a Sexual violation. A mental violation, a physical violation...

It is true torture, if you find yourself thrust into a situation you have no control over. Worst yet, if another human being forced a situation...a situation in which you have your basic human rights denied...your privacy, and your right of free will...

That is a horrible crime indeed, almost as bad (if not equally so) as murder.

Now...I'll make the next question very straightforward:

"What is love, and how much does love mean to you?"

It could mean familial love, romantic love...again the Cosmic Horizon is the limit. Big Grin
major pain 09-03-2003 09:48 PM
the human race is doomed! were all going to hell! or somthing like that I guess..................
Schwarzwald 09-03-2003 09:52 PM
The coming generation... looking at the media... will expect too much from life... and many from the shock... will kill them selves...

the people whom somehow did lead a good life... or want to make the enxt generation better... will say to cencor more because think that will solve the problem...

and the cycle goes on getting worse and worse...