Tired of Season 3 haters/non-believers. The Proof is in the Paradigm!

0-o

You my friend, are a true Big-O fan!

*looks at other forums members staring in awe at Paradigm Dog*

Well don't just stand there get this man a drink, some pie, a custom sig, and maybe a custom name thingy. you know the name above the stars. hmmm
<_<
>_> maybe a hot dog for me while your at it

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Originally posted by Zopwx2 I mean what possesed them to make the second season in the first place? Its obviously been a huge sucess, other new shows such as Wolf's Rain haven't done as well as big o (I think!?)

Actually,I think a big part of why they made Season 2 was because fans of the original show wanted an actual ending and needed closure.

quote:

Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato I expect better of Big O's writers.

You and me both brother. I was left feeling very very let down after Season 2.

Personally,I liked Big O because it had it's own feeling to it. A city without a sense of direction. All their memories were gone.Left with a lost technology,they try to make as much sense as possible out of every day. It had a nostalgic feeling to me.Like watching snow fall while sitting on your roof. You know?

Every episode had a light-hearted feeling to it,with enough style and originality to spare.The animation was crisp and fresh,and it seemed as though every episode was it's own little story. However,there was also a story behind all of it that was slowly being revealed through Schwarzwald and somewhat through Gordon and Alex towards the end.

But,things went totally downhill with Season 2 in my opinion. Every episode felt rushed to me. Like they were trying too hard to be serious and urgent about the whole "lost memories" thing.That,plus the animation value dropped by about half,and it ended up looking like an old Hanna Barbera cartoon instead of an anime from 2004.

It seemed like they were trying to be deep and meaningful and it really just came off as cliched and pointless to me.Yet,I watched every episode hoping I would get yet another glimpse of what made me like Big O in the first place. I didn't.

So,needless to say,I'm actually quite against a Season 3. The end of Season 2 seemed like the writers were grasping at straws,so Season 3 would probably just be a bunch of poorly animated junk that ends in yet another cliffhanger.Thus,hooking you for another Season and just turning it into another media "cash-machine' made by "the man".

But that's just this guy's opinion.I could be wrong.

-BC

As mentioned, sadly, BIG O II's animation was not as refined as Season 1's. The quality went down, but it didn't go down so much that the show lost all its visual punch, thank goodness. There at least wasn't lots of clunky, ugly CG and scaling as seen in some modern animation like Gundam SEED. I'd like BIG O III to get back to the original's style a bit more maybe, but as long as it doesn't go down from SEASON 2, I'm ok with it. I think they know not to lower it from there hopefully. And CN (aka Time Warner-AOL or whatever they are now) has LOTS OF MONEY to produce a season 3 (and 4 if needed) even if they don't sell well. They've got money to burn. Why not try to please the fans and let the creator feel satisfied that they completed their tale to the level they wanted to. I haven't seen the creators object to creating more BIG O or want to move on to new projects yet.

Anyways, as promised previously, this is a repost of an earlier, past discussion over season 3 on this board.
It does not completely, accurately show my most current personal theories, as I am starting come up with different theories of characters roles and the religious implications, especially Gordon and Angel...its getting very interesting. But anyways, here's a past post for a taste of the symbolism and images shown in BIG O so much that it doesn't make sense for it to be a simple "TV SHOW" gone awry.

"...one could just as easily say this is a show of religious metaphor dealing with the Book of Revelation/The bible, and in that case, it is not at the end yet. Notice the BIG's colors same/similar to the Four Horseman. (just one of MANY examples that have gone through these forums before...there are literally hundreds of posts on the connections to the Bible.). I have a strong feeling the writers have more up their sleeve to this, and are merely awaiting the money to finish up this epic properly with an additional 26. I eagerly await that day.

The ending shows that Roger has 'failed.' The RESET has occured again, but the main point has not changed. The memories are still gone. I understand what your saying, but I don't beleive that was the main point of this show. There was something that triggered this need for a RESET long ago. Because we have memories of a shining, normal Paradigm in Roger the Wanderer, and a world half in ruin the whole series and after the RESET of episode 26...buildings are still fallen over, etc.

Each RESET, something changes, man moves toward an ultimate goal and conflict. For instance, think of the past Rogers who have failed their mission--they died fighting in a war (what of them, its body is still present in the sea along with destroyed Megadeus). There is evident build up toward a climax here, but the mastermind of Paradigm, whether it be Angel or someone else, is not allowing the resolution/ the final judgement to occur yet. Until man breaks the cycle, man will be a slave to a devil (angel?) or maybe their own faults of greed basically, forcing them to live repressed lives of uncertainty. "This city is suffocating"-ep 11. This world is in a Tribulation of sorts...not nessessarily biblical, but along those lines it seems.

You can't end a series totally properly with the future holding darkness and endless destruction of the same pattern over and over again. Gordon was quite clear he hired Roger to neogotiate in the past with the creator, and he did not succeed, thus the need for the last RESET, but this time, despite Rogers efforts and gaining some ground evidently (as Angel and Dorothy are shown in the end of 26 now on the side of the road) he failed. He did not recover the memories, which was his purpose--Paradigm is still lost in twisted Amnesia as seen at the end of 26. We have no idea who Roger is yet, what's the connection of the lesser Domini like Benny w/ Osrail, the cause of the first Event and first RESET, etc. So much unanswered, too much to even remember really. Roger must continue on and COMPLETE his neogotiations. The series is meant for a Season 3 I beleive.

Note: Shwartzwald comes to a truth and realizes that all this time the world has "been a comedy". If he is a member of Freud's mind [this response was to someone talking about BIG O as a metaphor for freud], he could not become self-concious of the 'TRUTH.' And Beck having connections with the BIG O, knowing its systems; and key point, line in ep 25 I think, Rosewater tells Beck his father 'didn't go far enough.' And don't think Gordon doesn't know more than he says. He knew the secret elevator and floor 666 (how do you explain that in Freudian?!--that is a strong reference for evil and thus, a world perhaps in the grip of an evil or destruction-minded entity--afterall, the same torturous history keeps repeating itself...it is never really a true rebirth...it is always tainted thus far) Gordon talked with this "creator" to fill in a book with memories. The communication/knowledge levels are too strong to be Freudian. What of the "roger robot" visions. The assembly line. The creators threw those in there to dazzle us and leave us with more questions for season 3. At any rate, we'll have to wait for the horse's mouth to speak.

I don't imagine the creators can mess it up that bad. I mean, come on honestly. They obviously know what they're doing in the overall sense. They're not a Lucus here. They pulled off a heck of a job overall on Season 2 after like a 2 year hiatus. You can bet their minds are brewing with the rest of the tale. Let it be told! There's nothing to lose really, and EVERYTHING to gain!"

Anyway, I felt that old post brought up a few of the points of how in-depth this series was with its conotations of symbolism. In the future, I might write up something more in-depth/conclusive on this. Its crazy how detailed and depthy it gets when you look at its symbolism.

'later

Just throwing in my two pence worth here.

First and foremost I'm all for a third (and more) series - continuing the story (no prequel.

Okay now for my main observation (bear with me here)

Commercial companies are guided by profits - commercial tv stations rely on advertising revenue to survive. The main way to get this revenue is to by having programs watched by viewers, who then see the commericals. The better the ratings - the more the advertising revenue.

From what I've gathered from the forums is that Big O has had good ratings over there in America. Currently its only been shown on a Cable TV station which is not in 'general' use over here in the UK. Currently its not shown at all (I'm relying on DVD's, starting buying season 2 soon).

Another way of getting revenue is by 'syndication'. This, in its simplest form, is to 'sell' the series to other stations - either in the same country or around the world. From what I've gathered the 'magic number' for this is 52 episodes (i.e. 1 per week). Currently there is 1/2 years worth - fairly good but difficult to syndicate.

If a season 3 (and 4) was made it would be possible to more easily 'sell' to other stations. A station will only do this if they think the return from the series will show a big enough profit.

Syndication is not new - the orginal Star Trek series gained its cult following this way. The BBC's 'Red Dwarf' (on of my favourites) gained its last 2 series that way. The BBC wanted the magic 52 episodes as they new it could be syndicated.

Anyway, I'll stop now - I've written this after watching the new Harry Potter film at the cinema today (followed by a pub lunch).

The final line - remember that businesses are driven by profit (thats why I like the BBC - run mainly from the license fee).

quote:

Originally posted by Blue Crow But,things went totally downhill with Season 2 in my opinion. Every episode felt rushed to me. Like they were trying too hard to be serious and urgent about the whole "lost memories" thing.That,plus the animation value dropped by about half,and it ended up looking like an old Hanna Barbera cartoon instead of an anime from 2004. It seemed like they were trying to be deep and meaningful and it really just came off as cliched and pointless to me.Yet,I watched every episode hoping I would get yet another glimpse of what made me like Big O in the first place. I didn't. So,needless to say,I'm actually quite against a Season 3. The end of Season 2 seemed like the writers were grasping at straws,so Season 3 would probably just be a bunch of poorly animated junk that ends in yet another cliffhanger.Thus,hooking you for another Season and just turning it into another media "cash-machine' made by "the man". But that's just this guy's opinion.I could be wrong. -BC

I agree with you really. The animation and artstyle were awful. Plus, instead of style Big O season two tried to be way more 'Eva'.

AWSOME,

It doesn't make sense though,

But the ending sequence of BIG O SEASON II EPISODE 26 Bothers me though,

I mean

Doesnt BIG VENUS Erase BIG O

But Leave Roger And Dorothy,

All Of the villans seemed dead,

ALAN G.

BECK (DIDN'T DIE BUT VILLAN CARRRER SEEMS TO BE OVER)

SCHWARLD (DONT KNOW ABOUT HIM)

ALEX (GONE)

Ect...

Once again,I'm going to present my idea for a Big O movie instead of Season 3.

They need to re-hire the original animators and writers. The story should pick up after Episode 13,go through Roger's fight with the 3 foreign robots and then have a climactic battle between Schwarzwald and Roger halfway through the film.

Then,Alan Gabriel is introduced,and blah blah blah.

I just think it would be a nice,tasteful way to end the series.It would be like an alternative to the events of Season 2.

I tried to write my own movie script,but it fell apart because of my lack of free time...........

-BC

there is no way they are going to abandon season 2's plot line, whatever happens they have to somehow salvage it and go on.

Sure season 2 animation is inferior but there is no way they can go back, as far as I can tell all new anime is coming out in the gay new cgi stuff, and that they don't even make the kind of cells needed for season 1.

But it would be excellent if they could recapture the season 1 feel while still advancing the storyline.

Becuase most of season 1 didn't tell us anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Zopwx2 there is no way they are going to abandon season 2's plot line, whatever happens they have to somehow salvage it and go on. Sure season 2 animation is inferior but there is no way they can go back, as far as I can tell all new anime is coming out in the gay new cgi stuff, and that they don't even make the kind of cells needed for season 1. But it would be excellent if they could recapture the season 1 feel while still advancing the storyline. Becuase most of season 1 didn't tell us anything.

yah but season1 was frickin awesome THe most badass battle (act12), the coolest lines (err...I'm thinking) and also the best style of animation in the series.

quote:

Originally posted by evanASF27 quote: Originally posted by Zopwx2 there is no way they are going to abandon season 2's plot line, whatever happens they have to somehow salvage it and go on. Sure season 2 animation is inferior but there is no way they can go back, as far as I can tell all new anime is coming out in the gay new cgi stuff, and that they don't even make the kind of cells needed for season 1. But it would be excellent if they could recapture the season 1 feel while still advancing the storyline. Becuase most of season 1 didn't tell us anything. yah but season1 was frickin awesome THe most badass battle (act12), the coolest lines (err...I'm thinking) and also the best style of animation in the series.

Of course it was, I am on the "season 1 ruled" side.

Its just that they've already went to far with the "story" whatever it is to just go back to the mysterious detective story from season 1.

quote:

Originally posted by Zopwx2 Of course it was, I am on the "season 1 ruled" side. Its just that they've already went to far with the "story" whatever it is to just go back to the mysterious detective story from season 1.

They pretty much wore out the possibilties of Season-1-style BIG O during Season 1. The whole villain-of-the-week schtick is awfully lame. They took it just about as far as they could without it becoming lame. Even so, the number of people who produced a robot or a monster for the purpose of destroying ze accursed city was ridiculously large.

It's not like traditional comic books, where you're counting on a new crop of kids to come in and replace the fans who've gotten heartily sick of the constricted plot which has only a few, endlessly repeated variations. In anime, especially anime with only a season or two so far, you'd better hang onto your current audience! So, unlike SUPERMAN, where you can kidnap Lois Lane in every issue for 100 issues in a row, and the villains can look startled and gasp, "It's Superman!" 100 times in a row, too, BIG O has to vary the basic plot or die.

They knew this from the beginning. They were setting up Season 2 in Act 1.

As for the animation, I disagree. There are slight differences betwen the seasons, but more between the individual episodes. They can't draw Dorothy consistently in either season. And I don't miss all the little white dust specks of cel-based animation. Some of the things I've heard people complain about, such as the color intensity, aren't even there, not in the DVDs or on the signal that came over DirecTV. They might have cranked a knob over on one of the CN feeds.

quote:

Originally posted by Zopwx2 there is no way they are going to abandon season 2's plot line, whatever happens they have to somehow salvage it and go on. Becuase most of season 1 didn't tell us anything.

That's not necessarily true. So you're saying that it's physically impossible to present an alternate ending than what happened in Season 2?

It's not impossible,it's happened in the past.

Also,Season 1 did tell us things,but they went about it in the right way. They had a little bit of the big picture revealed in every episode,but they disguised it under a light-hearted "villain of the week" style.Which I personally found to be quite refreshing,thank you very much.

quote:

Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato It's not like traditional comic books, where you're counting on a new crop of kids to come in and replace the fans who've gotten heartily sick of the constricted plot which has only a few, endlessly repeated variations. In anime, especially anime with only a season or two so far, you'd better hang onto your current audience! So, unlike SUPERMAN, where you can kidnap Lois Lane in every issue for 100 issues in a row, and the villains can look startled and gasp, "It's Superman!" 100 times in a row, too, BIG O has to vary the basic plot or die.

So you're saying that if they didn't take the Big O storyline where it went,it would have turned into a repetitive superhero-esque storyline?I thought you'd at least have a little more faith in Big O's writers than that.

It's not impossible to have a 26 episode show,stay consistent with good animation,have a solid storyline that starts off fairly innocent,and manages to escalate without losing the original relaxed feel of the beginning.

I believe it's been done a few times.One show in particular comes to mind. I think it stars with a "C" and ends with an "ebop".

My point is,Season 1 was like a work of art.And Season 2 left alot to be desired.That's all I'm saying.

-BC

I'm all for a season 3... but only if it is done for quality, and not money. Thus far- the series has been genius, and it has riddled my mind like no other.... still, a season 3 to add depth would be great. Personally, I just want another quality season to watch.... and I'm willing to wait another two or so years for it.

quote:

It's not like traditional comic books, where you're counting on a new crop of kids to come in and replace the fans who've gotten heartily sick of the constricted plot which has only a few, endlessly repeated variations. In anime, especially anime with only a season or two so far, you'd better hang onto your current audience!

DBZ anyone?

I'm kind of on the fence here. While I liked most of season 1, I think that the "fight of the week" idea was strained even before we got to "Daemonseed," where it was pretty much played for laughs. Yes, yes, I know "Enemy is Another Big!" had a great fight (and well it should, for the time it took up), but it took the gimmick of Big O being out of ammo to allow it. Robots that can tip over buildings are pretty much too powerful to engage in a protracted fight.

What I liked best about season 1 were the self-contained episodes. And the same was true of the first six episodes of season 2. They each had a story to tell. In addition, some of the information leading up to "The Big Fight" and the reset were incorporated into it. The episodes from "Stripes" to the end were almost claustrophobicly close together.

Perhaps the best of both worlds would be to have one or two story arcs that would get airtime over several episodes, with single-story episodes mixed in. That allows for a larger story, with changes of pace, and I think it would feel more like season 1 overall.

Pygmalion

quote:

Originally posted by Pygmalion I'm kind of on the fence here. While I liked most of season 1, I think that the "fight of the week" idea was strained even before we got to "Daemonseed," where it was pretty much played for laughs. Yes, yes, I know "Enemy is Another Big!" had a great fight (and well it should, for the time it took up), but it took the gimmick of Big O being out of ammo to allow it. Robots that can tip over buildings are pretty much too powerful to engage in a protracted fight. What I liked best about season 1 were the self-contained episodes. And the same was true of the first six episodes of season 2. They each had a story to tell. In addition, some of the information leading up to "The Big Fight" and the reset were incorporated into it. The episodes from "Stripes" to the end were almost claustrophobicly close together. Perhaps the best of both worlds would be to have one or two story arcs that would get airtime over several episodes, with single-story episodes mixed in. That allows for a larger story, with changes of pace, and I think it would feel more like season 1 overall. Pygmalion

Hmm though I may disagree with you view on the "fight of the week" thing, the rest seemed to hit on the head pretty much (for me at least). The last few episodes left little cliffhangers, which was ok, but it made it seemed that the last like 6 or 7 acts were only over the course of two days(!!! O_O) while the others, including season1 acts, made it seems like over a period of weeks or even months in some cases. I think they just had a lot of ideas but were restricted to the "26 ACT LIMIT" and so smushed them all together at the end when the realized that it was not going to work out in the old way of doing things. Hey I mean sometimes I work on something and then see that in order to incorperate everything I need to put like 3 ideas into one paragraph or soemthing to finish on time (during exams that is). Writers might have had that same scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by Pygmalion Perhaps the best of both worlds would be to have one or two story arcs that would get airtime over several episodes, with single-story episodes mixed in. That allows for a larger story, with changes of pace, and I think it would feel more like season 1 overall.

This is one reason why I think it was extraordinarily foresighted of Cartoon Network to option a 26-episode Season 3 -- and one reason why I think they're serious about exercising that option sooner or later.

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Originally posted by TheBigDuoInferno AWSOME, It doesn't make sense though, But the ending sequence of BIG O SEASON II EPISODE 26 Bothers me though, I mean Doesnt BIG VENUS Erase BIG O But Leave Roger And Dorothy, All Of the villans seemed dead, ALAN G. BECK (DIDN'T DIE BUT VILLAN CARRRER SEEMS TO BE OVER) SCHWARLD (DONT KNOW ABOUT HIM) ALEX (GONE) Ect...

BDI, what you need to understand in Big O, dead doesn't mean gone, Shwartzwald proves that, he did some of his best quotes while Possessing Big Duo Inferno.

Oh, yeah. Spoiler alert. But I assume anyone here's seen the show at least once through anyway, since it's been off and on Adult Swim about 5 or 6 times.

There's a couple of things that can be said about the timing at the end of Big O season 2. The first is that the pace is claustrophobic (as Pygmalion put it). I'd call it panicked, in fact. Act 23 flowed directly into 24, and a brief pause to let everyone (writers, characters, and us) catch our breath before plunging into the last 2 Acts. They flowed together too. The whole sense of panic is pretty fitting, since everyone's going through some kind of trauma. Roger's lost Dorothy. Alex's murdered his father. Gordon's met up with Roger, who's basically a ghost from his own past--and it's a fairly distant past at that. Vera's found out about the lack of Memories in Paradigm and the (possible) non-existence of the Union. Angel's on stage, and Dastun's at the movies. Even with the "minor" characters, Schwartzwald has found his Truth (and then immediately dismissed it), Gabriel's judged, and Beck shows a little regret for working with the Paradigm Corporation, while Norman and Big Ear are in a besieged city (doesn't matter who's firing or not, the effect is the same--Paradigm may as well be London in 1940). If that's not a good time for the characters to panic, I don't know what should fit the bill. Sit down and watch those four episodes in a row, and you get some TV as tightly paced (and better-written) than any action movie out these days.

The other thing that I think should be said, and I don't know how well this supports or refutes season 3 (little of both, probably), but the writing team for Big O is notorious for doing these big sweeping revelations as to How Things Work right at the end of the series. Look at Serial Experiments Lain. The whole last episode or two should be titled "And They (Almost) All Lived (Almost) Happily Ever After." In RahXephon, they crammed that ending denouement into about ten minutes at the end of the last episode. To be fair, RahXephon did so well in Japan that it immediately went into feature-length production with no pause for the development team to break up. Incidentally, Big O season 2 was shown in Japan at about the same time as RahXephon. Part of the delay there on Big O season 3 might be to let that writing team fulfill their obligations to the RahXephon project. But in all honesty, we just don't know until CN and Sunrise make a formal anouncement just what's going to happen with Big O. It's about as certain as things were in 2000 and early 2001, after the first season wrapped and nobody'd stepped up to pay for more. We'll just have to wait and see.