An alternative theory of Act 14

Pythagoras 03-02-2004 03:29 AM
After watching Act 14 again tonight, it occurred to me that the entire story behind that episode may actually have taken place within virtual Roger's head. Since Angel is in control of the whole scenario, she was able to get into Roger's head and bring him back to the real virtual world instead of the one his memory reaction triggered.

Comments?
jonnycooj 03-02-2004 03:52 AM
My take: Allot of people see Angel as the director, but I feel that Gordon is the director at this point, Angel has no idea about what is going on and is constantly searching just like everyone else. She takes control when Gordon gives her control in the final episode. I think Roger has the memories in 14 because he is a “tomato.”

Note: I take this back Angel has always been the director.
Wingnut 03-02-2004 09:03 AM
That is more or less the truth for this episode, it is also a informative thing for the viewers to see a bit more into Roger's past. Or at least the general events in it. Such as he left the MP's then met Big O shortly afterwards, thus answering Dastun's question at the begining of the episode.
Angel steered Roger back in the right direction to get back home and Dorothy brought him the rest of the way, using Roger's convictions to do so.
Gear 03-02-2004 11:37 PM
Gordon is not the director. He's just like everyone else, he's just re-discovered more memories than others and used them to manipulate others.

Angel is the one true director, even if she has suppressed her real memories, her sub-concious mind still knows thre truth, and the power of Big Venus.

Which is why she's crying at the end of 14, she *knows* deep in her mind that it was the memory of Dorothy that brought Roger back to reality (or what passes for it in Paradigm) and not hers.
Silv3rKnigh1 03-02-2004 11:58 PM
when angel sayed he ran away, do u think she meant from where they direct from?
jonnycooj 03-03-2004 12:33 AM
After seeing 15 again tonight, I'm starting to agree w/ you guys, Angel seems to have a sort of blind knowledge of the "cast" and I definitely noticed her giving "direction" to both Roger and Daston, to which they follow--whether she consciously knows what she is doing or not.

Sorry to any old school members if this is redundant.

More. He definitely had those memories, he knows how to reset the city, he makes Angel the director. He is the executive producer.

[edit: Do not double-post. --Almasy]
Silv3rKnigh1 03-03-2004 12:37 AM
I still think shes lucifer.
jonnycooj 03-03-2004 02:35 AM
I’m still feeling like Gordon has known all along the truth about Paradigm, also if was like everyone else why is he aged when Roger isn’t?
Big Waddle 03-03-2004 10:11 AM
My theory:

The Paradigm that Roger experiences in Roger the Wanderer is a former incarnation of Paradigm City. He's experiencing it in a dream-like manner because dreams are a mix of memories and images in your head, and he has sort of an epiphany. He's not flashing back exactly, but a Roger Smith existed in that Paradigm as well.
Silv3rKnigh1 03-03-2004 11:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Big Waddle
My theory:

The Paradigm that Roger experiences in Roger the Wanderer is a former incarnation of Paradigm City. He's experiencing it in a dream-like manner because dreams are a mix of memories and images in your head, and he has sort of an epiphany. He's not flashing back exactly, but a Roger Smith existed in that Paradigm as well.


mabye

but it seems to me that reality was teh real world before it was destroyed. Mabye the original world angel and roger were from.
Seraphim 03-03-2004 04:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Big Waddle
My theory:

The Paradigm that Roger experiences in Roger the Wanderer is a former incarnation of Paradigm City. He's experiencing it in a dream-like manner because dreams are a mix of memories and images in your head, and he has sort of an epiphany. He's not flashing back exactly, but a Roger Smith existed in that Paradigm as well.


Possibly, but it was quite well-built and Megadeus-free for being Paradigm City.
Big Waddle 03-03-2004 06:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by knight123
quote:
Originally posted by Big Waddle
My theory:

The Paradigm that Roger experiences in Roger the Wanderer is a former incarnation of Paradigm City. He's experiencing it in a dream-like manner because dreams are a mix of memories and images in your head, and he has sort of an epiphany. He's not flashing back exactly, but a Roger Smith existed in that Paradigm as well.


mabye

but it seems to me that reality was teh real world before it was destroyed. Mabye the original world angel and roger were from.


I say it is an incarnation of Paradigm mostly because of the final vision Roger has in episode 26, which I've concluded are the incarnations of Paradigm and their erasing and rewriting by Angel/Big Venus.


quote:
Originally posted by Seraphim
quote:
Originally posted by Big Waddle
My theory:

The Paradigm that Roger experiences in Roger the Wanderer is a former incarnation of Paradigm City. He's experiencing it in a dream-like manner because dreams are a mix of memories and images in your head, and he has sort of an epiphany. He's not flashing back exactly, but a Roger Smith existed in that Paradigm as well.


Possibly, but it was quite well-built and Megadeus-free for being Paradigm City.


Angel has been changing the story with every new Paradigm, the episode 14 Paradigm may have been an early one before she added the megadeus elements.
Seraphim 03-03-2004 06:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Seraphim
quote:
Originally posted by Big Waddle
My theory:

The Paradigm that Roger experiences in Roger the Wanderer is a former incarnation of Paradigm City. He's experiencing it in a dream-like manner because dreams are a mix of memories and images in your head, and he has sort of an epiphany. He's not flashing back exactly, but a Roger Smith existed in that Paradigm as well.


Possibly, but it was quite well-built and Megadeus-free for being Paradigm City.


Angel has been changing the story with every new Paradigm, the episode 14 Paradigm may have been an early one before she added the megadeus elements.[/quote]

If there were no Megadei, how would she have reset the thing?
Big Waddle 03-04-2004 06:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Seraphim
If there were no Megadei, how would she have reset the thing?


That's a very interesting question. Perhaps Big Venus existed in that Paradigm but was triggered some other way than other Bigs. Maybe Angel added Big O and the others later to help cope with the harshness of resetting the entire world she built. Or maybe there were megadei that were hidden away, as indicated by the newspaper article by one Michael Seebach in the newspaper in the episode in question. The same megadeus that was in Underground Terror.

Maybe it was only around that time (the time that Roger had a dream/flashback) in that incarnation that they were being discovered.
A Clockwork Tomato 03-04-2004 07:58 PM
Let's not make this over-complicated. The action in ROGER THE WANDERER is -- take your pick -- a dream, a vision, or a hallucination.

(Rationale: There are people (such as Dorothy) watching Roger during the fight with the three Megadeuses, and none of them seemed to have noticed him leave, mess up his clothes, grow some whiskers, wait for his arm to heal, have an adventure in an alternate Paradigm, get spiffed back up, re-wound his arm, and climb back into Big O.)

So, if we accept that it's a dream/vision/hallucination, then we have to accept that it's going to be a hodge-podge of reality and fantasy. Things that are true in essence will be shown in incorrect settings. Details that are precisely accurate will be mixed with stuff that never happened -- stuff like that. So you have to look at the episode by and large, and not bit by bit. (Oh, you can do it the other way if you want to, just as you can believe that Big O's cockpit really fills up with ripe tomatoes if you want to, but I don't think it's sensible.)

Even if it's just a dream, it's interesting. Beck seems to be the man Roger loves to hate -- he isn't fixated on Alex Rosewater yet. His salvation is in the hands of both Angel and Dorothy. They're not working together, but he relies on both of them.

If we choose to believe that this city is the Paradigm of forty years ago -- tempting, because of the presence of the human Dorothy and her father looking much younger -- we should also recognize that we see three ageless characters (Roger, Angel, and Beck) in addition to Dorothy (who is a special case). We also see a newspaper headline by Michael Seebach. However, everyone isn't ageless, given the example of Timothy Wayneright.

Since we've seen evidence of so many ageless characters, Roger doesn't seem all that special in this regard. He's one of THREE Megadeus pilots in this category (along with Seebach and Angel). Maybe these go together (which is one reason I gave Beck his Megadeus in my fan-fiction Season 3).

We could claim that the city represents Paradigm before the big Megadeus War, but where did the enormous piles of dead Megadeuses go, if that's the case? And why do people just talk about amnesia when they talk about 40 years ago, and not a battlefield? Not to mention the tens of thousands of fresh corpses that would have washed ashore when so much of the city sank (and what does a sinking city have to do with Megadeus wars)? So I think that the city was reshuffled by other means -- which were revealed in Act 26.

Roger talked about not having a place in this city, but apparently he was Major Roger Smith, perhaps the same person we saw flashbacks of in HYDRA, possibly also the one we saw dead in THE SHOW MUST GO ON. Maybe not.

Of course, it could all just be a fantasy.

As to the idea that Angel has special knowledge, I've never seen any evidence of it. As Alex Rosewater's private secretary she has a lot of access to information, and he also used her as his personal fix-it girl, I think. And she had her Union contacts, and, I'm willing to bet, underworld contacts as well. She never shows more knowlege than would come from her usual sources, plus going out of her way to keep tabs on Roger. As far as I can tell, everything she knows that people find extraordinary could have been found in Alex's files or by paying someone to stake out Roger's house. Anyway, Alex was probably staking out Roger's house already, so the whole thing is a no-brainer.
jonnycooj 03-04-2004 09:19 PM
What about in 15 when Angel asks “aren’t you going to call your alter ego Mr. Negotiator” and also orders Daston to shoot Allen Gabriel, in both instances the addressed respond by doing as she says. Roger was going to call Big O anyway, but the point is Angel already knew that this is what he was going to do (she just doesn’t realize). Daston is another case altogether, why does he need angels’ “direction” to make such an obvious decision? This is why I said that she has a sort of authority. In 16 she also “knows” that she and Roger have “been there before,” she has an unconscious understanding of what has and what will happen. This understanding, though clouded is much more cohesive than the snippets that everyone else experiences. Her memories are self-assurances, they allow a sense of control, whereas everyone else’s cause fear and confusion. In her current role she isn’t fully conscious of these memories but still manages to “stick to the script” so to speak.
Wingnut 03-04-2004 09:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jonnycooj
What about in 15 when Angel asks “aren’t you going to call your alter ego Mr. Negotiator” and also orders Daston to shoot Allen Gabriel, in both instances the addressed respond by doing as she says. Roger was going to call Big O anyway, but the point is Angel already knew that this is what he was going to do (she just doesn’t realize). Daston is another case altogether, why does he need angels’ “direction” to make such an obvious decision? This is why I said that she has a sort of authority. In 16 she also “knows” that she and Roger have “been there before,” she has an unconscious understanding of what has and what will happen. This understanding, though clouded is much more cohesive than the snippets that everyone else experiences. Her memories are self-assurances, they allow a sense of control, whereas everyone else’s cause fear and confusion. In her current role she isn’t fully conscious of these memories but still manages to “stick to the script” so to speak.

*buzzer* Wrong. As far as Act 15 goes, she told Dastun to hurry and shoot Alen whiule they still had a chance, where Dastun alone would've hesitated and perhaps not fired at all.
In Act 16 she was makeing a playful reference to their last adventure in that area which had them stuck together underwater trapped in that submerged building.
If Angel has an understanding of things that are to come of what they should be then she plays the dumb blonde role way too well. IMO Angel is just as clueless as everyone else, sure she may end up being a step or two ahead of the others, but that is the limit of her knowledge of the future.
jonnycooj 03-04-2004 11:49 PM
Ok I can see that point of view because Roger’s unconscious guides him to Norman and Big O, just as something in Angel’s unconscious constantly places her in the right place at the right time. So both would be equally clueless (or informed), but while Roger is guided to pilot Big O, Angel is guided to play a much broader role, she is the central figure, her unconscious decisions affect the future of almost all of the characters and of the city itself. Therefore her unconscious “memories” are of a much broader nature because she is needed to fill so many roles. Her unconscious is effectively revealing more because of her dynamic role. Her “quest for memories” is the most crucial “memory,” it is the central theme that links all of the events that take place in the city.
Pythagoras 03-05-2004 02:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato
Let's not make this over-complicated. The action in ROGER THE WANDERER is -- take your pick -- a dream, a vision, or a hallucination.

(Rationale: There are people (such as Dorothy) watching Roger during the fight with the three Megadeuses, and none of them seemed to have noticed him leave, mess up his clothes, grow some whiskers, wait for his arm to heal, have an adventure in an alternate Paradigm, get spiffed back up, re-wound his arm, and climb back into Big O.)

So, if we accept that it's a dream/vision/hallucination, then we have to accept that it's going to be a hodge-podge of reality and fantasy. Things that are true in essence will be shown in incorrect settings. Details that are precisely accurate will be mixed with stuff that never happened -- stuff like that. So you have to look at the episode by and large, and not bit by bit. (Oh, you can do it the other way if you want to, just as you can believe that Big O's cockpit really fills up with ripe tomatoes if you want to, but I don't think it's sensible.)

Even if it's just a dream, it's interesting. Beck seems to be the man Roger loves to hate -- he isn't fixated on Alex Rosewater yet. His salvation is in the hands of both Angel and Dorothy. They're not working together, but he relies on both of them.

If we choose to believe that this city is the Paradigm of forty years ago -- tempting, because of the presence of the human Dorothy and her father looking much younger -- we should also recognize that we see three ageless characters (Roger, Angel, and Beck) in addition to Dorothy (who is a special case). We also see a newspaper headline by Michael Seebach. However, everyone isn't ageless, given the example of Timothy Wayneright.

Since we've seen evidence of so many ageless characters, Roger doesn't seem all that special in this regard. He's one of THREE Megadeus pilots in this category (along with Seebach and Angel). Maybe these go together (which is one reason I gave Beck his Megadeus in my fan-fiction Season 3).

We could claim that the city represents Paradigm before the big Megadeus War, but where did the enormous piles of dead Megadeuses go, if that's the case? And why do people just talk about amnesia when they talk about 40 years ago, and not a battlefield? Not to mention the tens of thousands of fresh corpses that would have washed ashore when so much of the city sank (and what does a sinking city have to do with Megadeus wars)? So I think that the city was reshuffled by other means -- which were revealed in Act 26.

Roger talked about not having a place in this city, but apparently he was Major Roger Smith, perhaps the same person we saw flashbacks of in HYDRA, possibly also the one we saw dead in THE SHOW MUST GO ON. Maybe not.

Of course, it could all just be a fantasy.

As to the idea that Angel has special knowledge, I've never seen any evidence of it. As Alex Rosewater's private secretary she has a lot of access to information, and he also used her as his personal fix-it girl, I think. And she had her Union contacts, and, I'm willing to bet, underworld contacts as well. She never shows more knowlege than would come from her usual sources, plus going out of her way to keep tabs on Roger. As far as I can tell, everything she knows that people find extraordinary could have been found in Alex's files or by paying someone to stake out Roger's house. Anyway, Alex was probably staking out Roger's house already, so the whole thing is a no-brainer.


One possible take on the ageless characters might be that they are the only real ones. The rest of the world is really just a prop for our stars to act upon. The other thing might be that the world of Paradigm we know is the experiment of a real woman named Angel Rosewater who has put a copy of herself into the story. Unfortunately, the story has become more real than she ever imagined.
Dark-0 03-05-2004 05:24 PM
Does anyone think that Angel change in season 2, she is more helpful to Roger and does anybody know why she was fired from Paradigm HQ? Confused