No Season 3

Its a WIN-WIN situation for the anime too. I watched the first season of BIG O like 3 years ago, and finally they get a season 2. Those of you who could watch it all together now on Adult Swim it seems natural that it "ends", however that seems more like the ending of an act, a battle, rather than the end of a war. I mean, you might have tried to say the same thing had you been around for the SEASON 1's first showing (assuming I'm correct and that some of you only know BIG O from AS and not TOONAMI or the old DVDs.) I think there should definitely be more. It'll still be highly psychological, I don't think it'll cheapen it or dumb it down. The writers know what they're doing.GO SEASON III! I want to see an apocalypticm showdown vs. Venus and the army of Bigs!...while of course keeping deep and psychological...I know they can do it right!

I would like to point out that, when Cartoon Network funded the production of Season 2, they left the option open for the next 26 episodes.

Do you REALLY think that the writers for Big O would write themselves into a corner when they had the potential to do that much more?

My view on the ending is that it was designed to be flexible. If CN does not opt to go for the gold and fund the next 26 episodes, then it makes a reasonably good ending. But I'm willing to bet that they also have a story to continue the series fully prepared and waiting, in case they have need of it.

Knowing that the question of whether or not the show would go on had not been decided one way or another, they most likely planned for both possibilities.

Therefore, it's not a matter of whether or not they'll think up NEW stuff to add on because we demanded it, as is the case with many movie sequels (which normally turn out to suck). It's a question of whether or not to use the stuff they thought up either before or during the creation of Season 2.

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Originally posted by Jim Starluck I would like to point out that, when Cartoon Network funded the production of Season 2, they left the option open for the next 26 episodes. Do you REALLY think that the writers for Big O would write themselves into a corner when they had the potential to do that much more? My view on the ending is that it was designed to be flexible. If CN does not opt to go for the gold and fund the next 26 episodes, then it makes a reasonably good ending. But I'm willing to bet that they also have a story to continue the series fully prepared and waiting, in case they have need of it.

I've been saying this right along. When the writers started making Season 2, they knew there was a possibility at least of doing 26 more episodes, so I am sure they have something in mind.

Actually the ending of season 2 looked pretty inconclusive to me. I'd be disappointed if they didn't make a season 3.

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Originally posted by Zola I've been saying this right along. When the writers started making Season 2, they knew there was a possibility at least of doing 26 more episodes, so I am sure they have something in mind.

Yes. I'm surprised people don't see the parallel with the end of Season 1, which introduced a whole bunch of new plot threads in the last few episodes and resolved none of them. The whole tomato plotline was introduced suddenly and left hanging in midair. The "do we control them or do they control us?" bit was ramped up and left totally unresolved. Alex's delusions of grandeur were highlighted. Not to mention that every single element in WINTER NIGHT PHANTOM foreshadowed major action in Season 2. (I can't BELIEVE that people praise WINTER NIGHT PHANTOM as an example of a "stand-alone episode"!)

Then Season 2 starts to wind down, and we discover that most of the major characters are either ignorant or just plain wrong about their origins, Angel gives up on Roger but it looks like she and Dastun will become an item, and the whole bit with the stage lights, the grid, and Big Venus, which, like the main characters, we see in action but don't fully comprehend. And the long-standing thread of Dorothy's connection with Megadeuses, which became physical as well as mental in Act 26. What's up with that? And the apparent reincarnation of certain characters.

None of this was resolved. Other things were resolved, such as Angel deciding to do things Roger's way at the very end, and Angel and Dorothy making peace with each other (resolving a threat that started in Act 3). We can make shrewd guesses about the amnesia (it probably papered over a large discontinuity between the yesterday no one remembers and the today they woke up in), but lots of other stuff is still totally mysterious. There's plenty of stuff to investigate in a Season 3.

And what's the deal with Megadeuses? Everything seems to revolve around them. Alex felt he couldn't be a god without one. Angel seemed to prove him right with Big Venus. The Megadeus Connection is largely overlooked in people's Big O theories, by the way, just as the theories tend to ignore Angel, Dorothy, or both, when it's entirely clear that both women are at the center of any understanding of BIG O.

hmm I wonder.

Who would be the antagonist for Season 3?

Was Alex restored at the end as well? Would just Roger vs Alex again be dull, since they already had their showdown?

One thing I liked was the subtle buildup (less subtle towards the end there, heh) towards the Alex/Roger build up throughout the series. While I like the battles in ACT 12 and ACT 24 better in terms of action, I gotta admit that the fight in ACT 26 has the greatest emotional intensity. The entire series has been building up to this point where Roger finally takes on that smug jerk Alex, who represents all Roger dislikes about Paradigm City.

I dunno if a new villian out of nowhere would work as well, or if they can just recycle Alex after a showdown like that without it being redundant. Then again, they would have 26 more episode to develop the new bad guy....

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Originally posted by clericblackdave From the explanations I've seen online, this show is over, and should be over. If everything I've read is true, I'd be very dissapointed if they cheapened the series with a 3rd season. Basically, the resolution in my opinion, is the two dues' merging in the end. That is the metaphor for marriage / procreation / making kids. That is what creates the new city at the end and resets everything. Cause the city is the new pyschi of a child. Without memories. We spend our life without memory of why we are on this earth. Then, the solution is, that we have kids. Then those kids follow the same path of trying to discover for themselves their missing "memories" of purpose. The show came full circle at the end of season 2 from what i see.

Alright, this whole topic is pointless. We can assume a lot from the ending of season 2. But we can't conclude anything big from it. If there are enough ratings there will be a season 3. And with everyone here still watching it there will definetly be enough.

Furthermore- who cares? It was a good show. If it ends or continues it will still be good.

geez...sometimes you guys think about this too much. Maybe you should just appreciate the mistery. It's good thing.

Good point.

Alright. You all convinced me. All that I said before is worthless. I want Season Three now. And I want it bad.

Not to cause any problems...but this was recently posted on animenewsnetwork.com's Answerman column...basically its a column where the "Answerman" answers fan letters and so forth...based upon information and interpretation he's obtained....

letter: "oh please is there gonna be a big o season 3?i love the show still.i bought the dvd of episode one season 2. so many question still unsolved.let me know ok"

Response: Well, they haven’t announced it yet, but never say never. The second season of Big O did reasonably well for Cartoon Network, so it’s safe to assume that they’re considering another series. We’ll just have to wait and see, won’t we?

well...

i guess season 2 did so well for cartoon network it seems, why not pursue another, they did have that option in thier contract

I think the biggest indicator was not calling it a series finale but a season finale. (I think there will be a third season eventually)

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Originally posted by Seraphim I think the biggest indicator was not calling it a series finale but a season finale. (I think there will be a third season eventually)

Well, as much as I would hope that were true, it may not be. Season finale was guarenteed. However, that just means they were covering all bases and keeping all options open. It isn't a surefire indicator.

Nah, the best indicator is ratings. Big O was topping the AS ratings for quite a while, was it not? Or at least, doing really well. Top 3.

It might be a good idea. After all, the best way to attract viewers to Cartoon Network/Adult Swim is to be airing new episodes...and that means, of ANY show. Cartoon Network pretty much has the Big O rights in the bag (nobody else is gonna get them) so there isn't much to battle for, so in-between negotiations to broadcast other anime shows (such as new Inuyasha episodes or anything else), they can certainly have new Big O episodes. In a sense, getting new episodes for Big O is easier than anything else for Cartoon Network, saving the fact that they'd have to wait for them to be produced.

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Originally posted by Negotiator Prime In a sense, getting new episodes for Big O is easier than anything else for Cartoon Network, saving the fact that they'd have to wait for them to be produced.

All they have to do is pay for them. It's a weird game, building a network lineup. For example, on the one hand, they can get more Lupin episodes cheap, I'll bet. The series is ancient and I'm sure there's not much competition for them. But they don't draw viewers the way BIG O does, which means that the income side stinks -- advertisers pretty much pay a cost per viewer. If only a tenth as many people watch the show, advertising income is only a tenth as much.

So there's the high road and the low road. The low road is to pick up stuff really cheap that will draw audiences that aren't too bad. The high road is to pay full price for new work and PRAY that the audiences are really large. Adult Swim has mostly done the low road -- showing only a tiny fraction of the available Lupin episodes to save on dubbing costs, for example. BIG O is their experiment with the high road. It worked with their kids' programming (POWERPUFF GIRLS, etc.). Maybe it'll work with Adult Swim as well.

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BIG O is their experiment with the high road.

Maybe its just me, but I really get a charge out of knowing that American companies now care enough about anime to utilise their own funds to allow Japanese companies to create the shows. A couple of shows that I know of have done this (Robotech: The Movie's ending, Robotech II: The Sentinels, Pokemon 4Ever, and now, Big O) and every time, I think: "Yeah! Finally, Americans have realised the beauty of Japanese animation!" So now, when I know that, around the world--including Japan--there was a second season of Big O thanks to interest from an American company, I cheer with delight, for the light has been seen.

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Originally posted by clericblackdave I would say that the people who want a 3rd season are perhaps too young, or too American, to understand the beauty of the 2nd season ending. Its like the way Akira was done. The ending isn't supposed to tie up every loose end perfectly. That is the way American Animation is typically done. Instead, it gives an ending which gives you a general sense of the ending while provoking thoughts about you own life and the meaning of existence. Maybe I'm just getting too old and thinking about death too much, but I feel like the ending is in line with the tastes of the supposed target audience.

I think there are some significant arguements that can be made that the creators/writers at least toyed with the idea that 'The Show Must Go On' would be the final episode. One possible direct english translation of Roger's final words (on the Japanese official Big O website) and the mysterious 'And Forever - Grand Central' happy ending music that was on the Big O second season soundtrack cd but was never used in the series are particularly strong evidence to support that. But that was not, in fact, how Big O ended the second season. IF that was truely ment to be the end of the series, then I am greatly dissatisfied with the series, to put it in the mildest terms possible.

From episode one, the show has continued to revolve around the mysteries of Roger, Dorothy, Big O, Paradigm City, and the origional reason for the loss of memories of the residents of the Paradigm City world. Your theroy would also not seem to address the existance of the upper roof with stagelights (called the Superdome by some), the Big Venus (created?) gridlines as reality 'dissolved', or even the existance of the domes covering most of Paradigm City - all seemingly important plot points. Kudos to A Clockwork Tomato for filling in the gap with one extremely well done possibility!

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Originally posted by clericblackdave ... Thats is why I, as a loser graduate student, got fascinated by the show. It made no sense to me, until now.

It still makes no sense to me. But I too, share your facination with the show. And don't call yourself a grad school loser. You're in grad school - that's alot further than I made it in school - it is a very significant accomplishment! (even if it doesn't seem like it from your current perspective)

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Originally posted by clericblackdave The creators may do season 3. But it'll be for the money, and will probably ruin the great work of the first 2 season, because younger fans write in and throw the prospect of more money into the producers faces.

I can understand why you might think that, but have more hope - more faith in the creators/writers of Big O. It may yet have a 'real' conclusion that is both satisfying and makes sense. As for the 'financial' aspects, I'll second A Clockwork Tomato's words earlier.

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Originally posted by Pythagoras, in response to clericblackdave Its like the way Akira was done. The ending isn't supposed to tie up every loose end perfectly. That is the way American Animation is typically done. Instead, it gives an ending which gives you a general sense of the ending while provoking thoughts about you own life and the meaning of existence.

Its been a looong time since I've seen Akira, but I seem to remember the ending did 'fit' with the context of the movie. But I think of Big O very, very differently - as a great and deep mystery novel that I have come to love the characters in. I would make it more akin to reading a truely great mystery novel with wonderful character developement, only you've just started reading the last couple of chapters - the 'climax' of the book, only to turn the page and see a mostly blank page with the words "WHAT YOU ARE READING IS ONLY FICTIONAL STORY IN A BOOK. The characters were all imaginary, and the reason and resolution to all the mysteries are irrevalent. THE END" - at least if you take the season two last episode at face value. Is anyone going to read a great mystery novel and be happy with that ending??

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Originally posted by Advinius I completely respet the opinion of those who feel that big O should be left as is, with no sequels. However, i cannot agree. there are too many stories left to tell, and too many loose ends that could be wrapped up, for me not to want a third season. that being said, i would like to see at least some episodes ( maybe 1 in 3, or 1 in 4) be self contained, rather than everything being main arc.

I agree. I want to see more film-noir stand alone episodes in season three and four, along with the intense story-arc interlinked episodes (like basically the last half of season two). I am truely deeply impressed at season two - not only was it far better than I hoped (and I had very high hopes), but the last half of season two is pretty unique - I've seen many series with various levels of heavy story-arc episodes - sometimes 3 or more episodes in a row (Babylon 5 stands out) but I never seen any series make such a spectacular transistion from stand-alone to story-arc and character-developement-driven episodes in the middle of a season. Each episode seemed to be better than the last (to me) with some ending in spectacular cliffhangers.

I love Big O

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Originally posted by Paradigm Dog ... PS-- and if it wasn't clear, I've answered the question that HECK YES I want a season 3. I waited some 3 years for season 2 and emailed for its creation. I sure want a season 3 to end this gem of an anime series properly. I don't imagine the creators can screw it up. I mean, come on honestly. They obviously know what they're doing in the overall sense. They're not a Lucus here. They pulled off a heck of a job overall on Season 2 after like a 2 year hiatus. You can bet their minds are brewing with the rest of the tale. Let it be told! There's nothing to lose, and EVERYTHING to gain!

Amen brother! I didn't exactly 'wait' 3 years - after seeing the series the first time, and checking around, I wrote the series off as an unfinshed masterpiese. Imagine my joy, the surprised look on my face, when I watched the umteenthed rerun of season 1, and CN/AS announced Season 2!!!
A very happy moment for me, to be sure!

(to be continued....)

(continued from previous post)

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Originally posted by vickiwinters ... and, dude, come on. don't bash the west or America (at least not me specifically). just because our animation has been really sub-par for a good many years doesn't mean our culture is so bankrupt that it has prevented us from appreciating ambigiuous endings to TV shows. I can appreciate The Prisoner; I can appreciate Big O.

I agree with you about the Prisoner - it was one of my favorite series, and an interesting series to compare Big O to. The central question of why #6 resigned is really never answered. But I think there are some big differences. In Fallout the surreal meeting #6 has with #1 puts the series in some context, as well as the opening monologue at the beginning of every episode (very cool). You don't really get that with Big O, even if you include the 'memory scene' Roger has underwater - which could have been a good start. And as ambiguous as the Prisoner ending is, it is far more clear and concise than Big O's. But I interpret that as being due to The Show Must Go On actually *not* being the final episode.

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Originally posted by vickiwinters Anyway, sorry, long post.

Am I one to cast stones at others over long posts?

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Originally posted by Big Neo ... Too many questions were left unanswered. Such as, What is with Danstun's looping life, and why doesn't it happen with anyone else.

Excellent point! The meeting of Dan and Little Dan (and Little Sybil Rowan) has got to be one of the single most bizarre scenes in Big O. It dearly deserves an explanation!

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Originally posted by Big Waddle, in response to vickiwinters There are many anime series that have the 26-episode standard. 13 episode per season, usually two seasons are all that are planned. In this case, there was pressure to create a second season. 26 episodes is more than enough, anything more can truly destroy a series.

I completely disagree Big Waddle. Granted, there are many excellent series that end on episode 26. But I stress to you, there is nothing special or magical about the number 26. Serial Experiments Lain only has 13 (which I haven't seen yet, unfortunately) - and ends - right dawnstrider?? . My all time favorite from childhood, Star Blazers to some (Space Battlecruiser Yamato to OTHERS!) has something like 75+ episodes and a few movies to boot! I challenge you to seriously say it would have been better with only 26 episodes (which would basically amount to nothing more than the origional Iscandar/CosmoDNA storyarc). I have seen the 'good anime only has 26 episodes' line used a few times before in the forum, and it is definately a myth I would like to dispell. It you don't think I'm doing a good enough job, somebody say so, and I'll get more ammo (examples) and post some more.

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Originally posted by Big Waddle Roger Smith, the Negotiator is the main character of Big O. When his story concludes, there is no more to tell. This is why there can never be more Cowboy Bebop made, unless it's a movie that takes place before the conclusion. When the central protagonist's story is finished, there is no need to extend it to conclude the others'. As tough as it sounds, the other characters are ultimately irrelivant when compared to the plight of the central protagonist.

That infers you think Roger Smith's story has concluded. Concluded how? And what exactly do you think his 'story' was? And how do you think it ended? I'm genuinely asking - I can't seem to think of anything that infers that, with the possible exception of the revelation of the negotiation job Gordon gave *A* Roger Smith at some point - but that was only reveiled in episode 25 - if you accept that, what do you think Roger's 'story' was for the previous 24 episodes?

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Originally posted by Big Waddle The question is, what then, is the meaning of the androids' existance? If Dorothy existed as a "real" Dorothy 40 years ago, why would she then be turned into an android for the reality we see in the series? If she is the real Dorothy, can she not then stay that way? Or was Timothy Wayneright's memory of a real Dorothy a prediction of the time to come? Perhaps characters' roles in Angel's play, her drama Metropolis, change as the Director sees fit, so that they may easily play the role best suited for them. Or perhaps Dorothy is real the way she is. Maybe the more real we become, the more like the androids we are.

I like Zola's take on Dorothy. See her fanfics for details.

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Originally posted by Big Waddle Think about the androids. Dorothy. Instro. Fredrick. Do they not seem at times more aware than human beings? Or are the androids simply the product of people who are clinging to ideas that were cast away by the Director in her retooling of the drama (or as Shwarzwald says, the "comedy").

The only android who seemed that aware to me, was Big Ear, and even then, only at the beginning of The Show Must Go On. It did seem like at that point he did know the nature of Paradigm City et. al.

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Originally posted by Big Waddle Back to the subject at hand, there is much more answered by the conclusion given then you may give it credit for. Norman, Beck, Dorothy, and others have all fulfilled their purpose in guiding Roger to the Final Negotiation.

I do agree - it seems to me that both Norman and Dorothy did some 'guiding' of Roger - but to what end? I was origionally thinking it was Roger becomming a 'Dominus' - and that was somehow crucial to saving Paradigm City (the simulation?) if not the 'real' world. But that doesn't seem to be the case now.

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Originally posted by Big Waddle As for the different endings, at first I thought "No Side" ended an episode in where no negotiation had really taken place, or that the negotiation had failed. "We Have Come to Terms" ended episodes in which negotiations were a success, or something important was achieved. "To Be Continued" would then end an episode that had a story stretching into another episode. This was used far too often in the second season for my theory to hold water.

I think your theory is sound. Granted the 'To Be Continued' was used alot in season two, but I think it was pretty appropiate for the second half of season two - basically everything from Stripes on is one big movie, IMHO.

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Originally posted by clericblackdave ... 2) Its an age difference thing in my mind. The younger audiences are going to want another 26 episodes that "Americanize" the ending with an closed minded all strings cut and dry. I'm more interested in the symbolism and believe thats the entire point.

I definately don't agree. I'm definately at the 'far' end of the Big O fan age spectrum - and I am definately not satisfied with the end, if it turns out to be episode 26. As for me generally liking things 'closed minded' and 'cut and dry', I'd like to point out The Prisoner is one of the few sets of DVDs I own. So I feel I can take 'open minded' 'messy and wet' endings better than most.

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Originally posted by Stampede Ja, the biggest contributions Freud has made to anything in the past 20 years were being written in to Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure and having the "Id" turned in to a video game character for Xenogears. That's how seriously he's taken. And for good reason, too...

Eric Wolfson (of Alan Parson Project fame) also did a very cool album called Freudiana that is based around Freud and his mythos. I think a stage play was done with the music too. Sorta another 'contribution' from Freud, I guess.

BTW A few misc. points. Thanks for the newsbllip StevieV019. A big Welcome aboard (in case you haven't gotten one yet) to Negotiator Prime, vickiwinters, and AndroidDominus! And to you too, clericblackdave - I may not agree with you much, but I respect your opinion, and am happy you're here

Hummm... anyone know if I have broken my own long, rambling post record yet?

[EDIT] It is a record for me - nearly 15000 characters!