No Season 3

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Originally posted by Stampede I don't think he meant literally that an anime tends to end with "We Have Come To Terms" but instead, that they end with a tag line. For example, "See You Space Cowboy." And then they sometimes have variations on it. For example: "Merry X-Mas" after Daemonseed or "See You Space Samurai" after Cowboy Funk.

ok, that's reassuring.

and actually reading over your whole theory, cleric, I have to say I think you're over-reaching a bit. The plot of the show taking place in Angel's mind? A minor character in season 1 introduced as the mysterious sexy cartoon babe? Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the official show guide link her directly to Satan (as if "fallen angel" and "B666" arn't enough)? While she's not the show's "devil" or archvillain I can't buy her as its "hidden protagonist" like you suggest.

clericblackdave, have you ever actually seen Big O? All your theories seem to start with "I read...", and an interpretation of an interpretation isn't a good thing.

And the end of Act 26 isn't the beginning of Act 1, IMHO. It's supposed to show that life goes on.

vickiwinters -

There are many anime series that have the 26-episode standard. 13 episode per season, usually two seasons are all that are planned. In this case, there was pressure to create a second season. 26 episodes is more than enough, anything more can truly destroy a series.

Roger Smith, the Negotiator is the main character of Big O. When his story concludes, there is no more to tell. This is why there can never be more Cowboy Bebop made, unless it's a movie that takes place before the conclusion. When the central protagonist's story is finished, there is no need to extend it to conclude the others'. As tough as it sounds, the other characters are ultimately irrelivant when compared to the plight of the central protagonist.

Another point is the exact importance of Roger Smith in the reality of Paradigm City. While it is surprisingly Angel that is revealed as the God/Devil Figure whose powers stretch into the unknown outside of Paradigm's reality, Roger is nevertheless pivitol in the existance of Paradigm and its continuing progression. He alters reality by becoming the real Roger Smith, not just some tomato. His plea to Angel for her to change her life alters the story that for all we know has been changing ever so slowly over a number of repeating Paradigms. His actions and those of Angels outweigh those who are still growing into the real things, their real selves.


The question is, what then, is the meaning of the androids' existance? If Dorothy existed as a "real" Dorothy 40 years ago, why would she then be turned into an android for the reality we see in the series? If she is the real Dorothy, can she not then stay that way? Or was Timothy Wayneright's memory of a real Dorothy a prediction of the time to come? Perhaps characters' roles in Angel's play, her drama Metropolis, change as the Director sees fit, so that they may easily play the role best suited for them. Or perhaps Dorothy is real the way she is. Maybe the more real we become, the more like the androids we are. Think about the androids. Dorothy. Instro. Fredrick. Do they not seem at times more aware than human beings? Or are the androids simply the product of people who are clinging to ideas that were cast away by the Director in her retooling of the drama (or as Shwarzwald says, the "comedy").

Then again, perhaps I'm reading too much into things. The existance of androids could merely be something the creators of Big O added for effect. Or maybe the world from which Paradigm was created had the same co-existance between man and machine.


Back to the subject at hand, there is much more answered by the conclusion given then you may give it credit for. Norman, Beck, Dorothy, and others have all fulfilled their purpose in guiding Roger to the Final Negotiation.


As for the different endings, at first I thought "No Side" ended an episode in where no negotiation had really taken place, or that the negotiation had failed. "We Have Come to Terms" ended episodes in which negotiations were a success, or something important was achieved. "To Be Continued" would then end an episode that had a story stretching into another episode. This was used far too often in the second season for my theory to hold water.

1) I've watched the series. When i say I read, its because i read a threat about this explanation that opened my eyes to the beauty of the show.



2) Its an age difference thing in my mind. The younger audiences are going to want another 26 episodes that "Americanize" the ending with an closed minded all strings cut and dry. I'm more interested in the symbolism and believe thats the entire point.



3) It racist to say that japanese people don't suscribe to freud. Are you talking for all japanese people? I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous. The show is what it is or isn't, regardles of teh japanese writers. But i will say that I dont think this show is meant to end nicely. Its supposed to provoke thought and the kind of conversation we're having.


Aight i'm done.

So this show is not meant to enertain but is meant to cause people to
roll around sleeplessly wondering what the hell is going on? Interesting
point of view. . .

I have to agree with the thread starter that the show should be left as it is. The ending was fine as it is, enough was explained and enough was left to ponder about. We don't need an ending that is all cut and dry with nothing left to wonder about like how just about all things are nowadays.

quote:

Originally posted by clericblackdave 1) I've watched the series. When i say I read, its because i read a threat about this explanation that opened my eyes to the beauty of the show. 2) Its an age difference thing in my mind. The younger audiences are going to want another 26 episodes that "Americanize" the ending with an closed minded all strings cut and dry. I'm more interested in the symbolism and believe thats the entire point. 3) It racist to say that japanese people don't suscribe to freud. Are you talking for all japanese people? I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous. The show is what it is or isn't, regardles of teh japanese writers. But i will say that I dont think this show is meant to end nicely. Its supposed to provoke thought and the kind of conversation we're having. Aight i'm done.

Nice double standard with the "OMFG that is racist to Japanese/Americans are teh dumb" thing. You sound like one of those stereotypical "otaku" who is a white guy living in the suburbs wishing he was japanese, and mixes random japanese words into his speech.

And whats this about age difference thing? I doubt any kids less than 12 watch and actually like the complications of a show like this. The "younger" audience you speak of, you describe them as people who can not think and seperate a feeling from a thought. Also you fail to understand that some of the "older" audience might also want another season. And if another season does come out, you can just skip it and be happy with your life, no one is going to force you to watch it. And if a season 3 comes out and fails horribly, there wont be any harm to you because you can just forget what ever happened after season 2 and enjoy you had watched what you watched.

quote:

Originally posted by clericblackdave 3) It racist to say that japanese people don't suscribe to freud.

No, it's just overly exclusive. It's more accurate to say, "nobody subscribes to Freud." Freudianism is, to put it mildly, obsolete. When I took a college psychology course twenty years ago, we spent maybe fifteen minutes on Freud, with the instructor mostly warning us that nobody took any of that stuff seriously anymore, and psychologists were embarrassed that they ever had.

Ja, the biggest contributions Freud has made to anything in the past 20 years were being written in to Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure and having the "Id" turned in to a video game character for Xenogears. That's how seriously he's taken. And for good reason, too...

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by clericblackdave 3) It racist to say that japanese people don't suscribe to freud. No, it's just overly exclusive. It's more accurate to say, "nobody subscribes to Freud." Freudianism is, to put it mildly, obsolete. When I took a college psychology course twenty years ago, we spent maybe fifteen minutes on Freud, with the instructor mostly warning us that nobody took any of that stuff seriously anymore, and psychologists were embarrassed that they ever had.

Well, it is true that Freud never had as big of a following in Asia as he did in the Euro world. However completely unscientific his theories have been proven to be, there is a actually a significant body of literary and cultural critics who see his work as being more valuable in literary criticism since that is one of the areas in which Freud excelled in life.

But all of this is very OT. It's possible that there are some Freud allusions here but it's really pretty hard to say that "Big O" should be understood as a roman a clef whose key is provided by a sex-obsessed literary critic and self-styled scientist is quite untenable. I think the situation is somewhat similar to the Christian allusions (which are far more numerous). They aren't meant to stricture the plot but rather to give the viewer clues about character motivations and perhaps provide some additional plot context.

Well, that's all true, but there's also adding a framework for thematic elements.

What are you people talking about the show ending with enough answered and enough left to ponder? We don't even know what Paradigm City even is, we don't know if the people are even people, too much is left to be answered. What if they do make a season 3 will that make the show cr*p because they have answers to our questions? And a lot of adult people I know watch Big O, and want a thrid season, thats making a big stereotype for older and younger people.

I though about this from my last post and I think that maybe it should be left as is, but the best answer would not be a third season, but a sequel series. It may not be as good, but I am sure that the risk is worth it.

Some things should be left as they are. Symbolism and religious/psychological allusions are a good thing--but when no one can agree on what is going on, that is a very, very bad thing.

Even Moby Dick the most symbolic book I've ever read (and in my opinion the best work of fiction ever written) follows a plot that everyone can agree on, and those who study the book come to the same conclusions about the symbolism. It's not mysterious just for the sake of being mysterious, or open-ended just because the author ran out of ideas.

To prove my point, ask five people here to answer this question:

"Just what happened in Big O?"

You'll get five different answers, and they'll all just be supposition. And it's no fun to discuss in circles, since there is no real proof in the show to give us a definitive answer. That's why we need a season 3. The arc isn't finished. We don't know what's really going on, and, I'm sorry, Big O is NOT just in someone's head, and it's not just a television show, or something else as pointless as that. Otherwise I feel pretty cheated that the creators got me to care about characters that didn't matter (and it was pretty stupid of Roger to go to such effort protecting the citizens outside the dome, since they don't exist anyway).

Oh, and by the way, in my opinion, those who are truly immature are those who think they have all the answers, and haven't learned that no one knows as much as they think they do.

EXActly!

ITs not that we all hate symbolism and are too immature or corrupted by american culture or somthing that we just don't get it.

We all can't even agree one philosopic or symbolistic meaning to the show.

If everyone keeps coming up with entirely different theories that rely on assumptions rather than facts presented in the show then obviously it hasn't been finsihed.

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Big O is NOT just in someone's head, and it's not just a television show, or something else as pointless as that. Otherwise I feel pretty cheated that the creators got me to care about characters that didn't matter

YESS! Its what I've been saying! If everything is one big show/simulation/whatever the rest of the show was irrelevant, if only to entertain us for a while then suddenly be erased at the end.

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Originally posted by JetBlack What are you people talking about the show ending with enough answered and enough left to ponder? We don't even know what Paradigm City even is, we don't know if the people are even people, too much is left to be answered.

Well, it's pretty clear that Paradigm City is a city. I mean, it serves all the functions of a city. It's just set in a WORLD with some really scary stuff about it that we don't understand. (Not that the real world lacks these elements!)

And the people in the show are definitely people. That's one of the major themes of the show. Whether they all fit into a given person's definition of "human" is a different question, but the show was constantly expanding the definition of "people" -- at least in the minds of the viewpoint characters (mostly Roger, but also Dorothy). It quickly included Dorothy (an android), Pero (ostensibly a cat), Instro (a much less human-looking android that Dorothy), Angel (a question mark), Roger (another question mark), and arguably Big O himself. People are real; they matter; they come in a wide variety of packages; but even the little guy is important. That's a major theme.

Paradigm, like real life, presents us with a set of immediate surroundings and people that we can get used to and learn how to deal with, set in a cosmos that is pretty weird and hard to grasp. The heroes in Big O never forget their duty to their neighbors and loved ones; the villains get caught up in the glittering possibilities involved in understanding or controlling the cosmos, while ignoring the folks back home. That's another theme of the show, which dovetails neatly with the first one.

Saying that a third season of Big O would only satify americanized children seems very stereotypical. There are many adults who would not appreciate the show or its symbolism while some children may analyze the show and allow it to provoke thoughts. I have to say that I honestly believe that it's a matter of intelligence and not age. I personally hate to be lumped into a category of mindless sheep simply because of my age. I can't control my age btu I can control my thoughts and views of the world---including those on the symbolism ingreained into the heart of Big O.

Also on the matter of the symhbolism of the show: One cannot simply say that one interpretation of the show is the be all tro end all. Half the point of symbolism, in my opinion, is that you can gain a number of different meanings and thought provoking messages from the exact same things. As long as something can be read into the show, third season or no, thought provoking questions will continue to be asked.

As for a third season, just because it ties up some of the loose ends we have now doesn't mean that it will have a complete ending or that we won't continue to have discussions like this. In fact a season three could spawn even better and deeper discussions than this. There is no limit to the hieghts to which this show could soar if allowed to. Questions are often answered with more questions, there's no reason this show may not continue in that manner.

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Originally posted by AndroidDominus Saying that a third season of Big O would only satify americanized children seems very stereotypical. There are many adults who would not appreciate the show or its symbolism while some children may analyze the show and allow it to provoke thoughts. I have to say that I honestly believe that it's a matter of intelligence and not age. I personally hate to be lumped into a category of mindless sheep simply because of my age. I can't control my age btu I can control my thoughts and views of the world---including those on the symbolism ingreained into the heart of Big O. Also on the matter of the symhbolism of the show: One cannot simply say that one interpretation of the show is the be all tro end all. Half the point of symbolism, in my opinion, is that you can gain a number of different meanings and thought provoking messages from the exact same things. As long as something can be read into the show, third season or no, thought provoking questions will continue to be asked. As for a third season, just because it ties up some of the loose ends we have now doesn't mean that it will have a complete ending or that we won't continue to have discussions like this. In fact a season three could spawn even better and deeper discussions than this. There is no limit to the hieghts to which this show could soar if allowed to. Questions are often answered with more questions, there's no reason this show may not continue in that manner.

You spoke the words i couldn't in my other post in this thread.

/softclap
/applause

I realise the inherent problems with developing a sequel to Big O lay mainly in part to the fact that the series was, as said before, finished in a more-than-satisfactory way while providing further thought into the future. However, this thread focuses on the possibilities of an anime-based sequel to Big O and not the whole picture.

Remember that Big O is a story. Just like any other story, there are various ways to present it. However, in the case of anime serieses, the general problem is that, should a new sequel series appear, it will totally be taken as a direct relation and continuation of the original series. With manga, there is a totally different mind-set due to the fact that many artists/writers have often created different universes for the fans to behold.

For this reason, I believe that, should fans desire a Big O sequel (or prequel, or side-story), the forum for its presentation should be manga. With this, different people can either accept or deny its relation to the original story, and everyone gets what they like. (The problem that rests with this, however, is that the fanbase gets split across accept/deny lines.)

However, apparently, Big O is a series of continued popularity, and for both the fans and the creators, a sequel would be an excellent idea to create, as the fans get something new to enjoy and the creators get the money that the fans pay for the work. This is a win-win situation, and the forum of manga (as opposed to anime) is also win-win for all fans alike.