Robots can feel (from Hot Robot Action)

I originally posted this in the Hot Robot Action thread, but Bonnie correctly brought up that it deserves its own topic. The quote is from the same thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Rekkoha Anybody ever think for a moment that all Megadeuses, semisentient or otherwise, are robots? Robots are incapable of feeling. They can occasionally simulate emotion, but cannot actually FEEL in the way humans do.

I think that the premise "Robots are incapable of feeling" is incorrect.

If you would like to see the theory in a nice story format, check out "Beneath the Surface".

If you aren't into fanfic, here it is, as briefly as I can state it.

1) In order to interact with the environment, the organism must have some kind of feedback system.

We have seen Big O and Dorothy act of their own free will, therefore they meet the criterion of interacting with the environment. (By way of contrast, a radio controlled car does NOT interact with the environment, it just does what the signals tell it to.)

2) A feeling is something you feel in your body

A)There are primal feelings that are direct sensory feedback.

Water "feels" wet. Ice "feels" cold. A rock "feels" hard, a feather "feels" soft. But the word feels is really just shorthand, isn't it? When I say "the water feels cold", I could say equally correctly "The feedback from my nervous system is telling me that the temperature of the water is below sixty degrees"

Big O and Dorothy both most assuredly have that sort of sensory feedback and if we can use the shorthand "feels", so can they because we are talking about the identical thing.

B)There are primal feelings in response to the sensory data from the environment, such as pain and pleasure. Something is too hot, it HURTS.

This is a really efficient way of doing things, because the organism quickly learns avoidance of that which hurts and pursues that which brings pleasure. I see no reason we wouldn't build that kind of thing into a robot. It is a survival mechanism which gives rise to self-protective behavior. Big O and Dorothy have both exhibited self-protective behavior (Big O puts up his arm shields when he gets knocked down, Dorothy backs away from the Archetype), so I think we can infer that there is some sort of good/not good path involved.

C)There are primal feelings that are sensory feedback concerning the state of the organism.

These are feelings like hungry, sleepy, thirsty, the signals that are sent to the organism by the body urging that the organism seek the needed item.

While the show doesn't really demonstrate this in a way that I can think of off the top of my head, again, when you say "I feel hungry" what you are really saying is "my body is notifying me that food/rest/water is required". Dorothy definitely will seek what she needs if her body notifies her there is a lack (like oil, for example). So she could say "I feel thirsty" just as legitimately as we could. Big O acts protective of Dorothy, we could say that he requires her presence so he could say "I need Dorothy".

D)There are feelings that are a specific set of sensations in our bodies in reaction to sensory feedback

This is where "emotions" come in. Something happens in our environment--and it can be just about anything. We have a fight and we get angry (commonly, the face gets red, the muscles tense, especially in the jaw and hands, we prepare for battle). We see a man-eating tiger and we get scared (our heartbeat goes up, we get a lurch in the stomach, we shake, etc). I could go on and on and on with this one, but I am trying to be brief. We KNOW Dorothy at the least experiences fear, we saw it--not just "I'm scared". If she can experience fear, there is no reason she can't experience any other feeling.

Remember, she had a physical reaction to that archetype, one that Roger (and we!) could readily identify as fearful!.

This is probably the line between Big O and Dorothy, at least at the moment. Big O doesn't seem to have "emotions" as we recognize them at least. However, Dorothy does.

E) There are feelings that are a specific set of sensations in response to our thoughts

Sometimes when we replay memories, we react as if they are happening (one of the reasons that excessive worry is so harmful--we have a reaction as if we are actually in danger when really, we are only reacting to our thoughts). We have seen no evidence of this in Dorothy, but is she has feelings of type D, then it might just be a matter of time before she had feelings of type E.


I could go on, but I really am trying to be brief here. You said "Robots don't feel" and I just gave you three ways in which we are quite certain Big O feels, and four ways that Dorothy feels. Therefore, the statement is incorrect.

*wondering if I spend WAY too much time thinking about this stuff*

** Clapping and whistling **

Zola, you hit the nail on the head.

This is must be on the assumption that Dorothy and Big O are made utilizing technology far more advance. AI is primitive, but is far more advance from the 80's. Dorothy and Big O are possibilities. Maybe not today, but soon (relatively speaking).

Wow Zola very very thorough. I think that Dorothy and Big O are sentient beings. Who was it that suggested that they are not? I think it's very obvious just by watching the series that your not dealing with mindless automatons.

Dagon (The Sea Titan) was crying because it was lost without it's dominus. Thats another example of a megadeus within the series acting on it's own even if it was awoken prematurely.

As for wether or not robots can feel real human emotions. A.I. is a good example of a movie that covers the subject and the moral complications that arise from it. I think it is possible to create an artificial life form with "feelings". But I wouldn't go as far as to do so. Because it wouldn't be fair for that creation.

This is in response to something Rekkoha said, I assume. He stated something along the lines of "Big O [and by extension Dorothy, although she wasn't mentioned] can't feel and aren't sentient because that comes from a soul."

quote:

Originally posted by Rekkoha Anybody ever think for a moment that all Megadeuses, semisentient or otherwise, are robots? Robots are incapable of feeling. They can occasionally simulate emotion, but cannot actually FEEL in the way humans do.

my response to Rekkoha's post

quote:

Originally posted by Bonnie Frasier what about the time Big O one way or another commincated with roger when he told him to go save Dorothy and he'd hold off Bonaparte, and what about when Big O goes to plug Roger and Roger asks him if it's what he wants. Roger himself treats Big O as though he's sentient. You really wanna disagree with Roger Smith? Be careful, u might get urself negotiated like Beck and the others.

just wanted to quote myself.......

quote:

Originally posted by Stampede This is in response to something Rekkoha said, I assume. He stated something along the lines of "Big O [and by extension Dorothy, although she wasn't mentioned] can't feel and aren't sentient because that comes from a soul."

This can't stand up to even casual inspection, because to demonstrate the point you would have to be able to (a) prove that people have a soul, and (b) that God has chosen not to give souls to artificial intelligences. There is no known way to prove (a), and (b) strikes me as pure guesswork.

For practical purposes, Dorothy is human. She has a very unusual body, but her quest in BIG O has been to progressively get Roger to accept her as a person, a person with human emotions, a woman, and a lover. What's ironic is that Roger's hormones were way ahead of him -- I'm convinced that most of his resistance was due to the powerful attraction he felt for her, while at the same time feeling that being attracted to an android was wrong.

Because of a variety of clues scattered through the shows, I believe that Dorothy's personality is basically an accurate recreation of the human Dorothy, perhaps recorded before the Event, so the memories would be inaccessible even though the personality and skills would still be there. So when R. Dorothy woke up, she had no past memories to help clue her in as to who she really was. Was she a person catapulted into a robot body? Was she just a simulation?

And all the Megadeus support functions that snuck out of her subconscious and made her do things that she didn't want to do -- that was pretty scary, too.

But I feel that Dorothy is too human to be a true artificial intelligence. I believe she really is a faithful reproduction of the human Dorothy in android form.

So what about Megadeuses? Are they also human personalities in the form of a giant robot? Megadeuses seem to have limited abilities to act on their own, perhaps to prevent them from going on the rampage, and work best with someone else in the cockpit. I'm sure we all noticed that Big O "moves on his own" much better in Dorothy's presence than when she's elsewhere. Megadeuses may be somnolent when they're not manned, and only come fully awake when their pilot calls "Action!"

If so, they lead very exciting lives! Nonstop action!

In any event, though, whether a high-tech creation can be just as alive as a meatbag is just a question of definition and implementation. Even the question of souls will be resolved through the simple expedient of SOME religions asserting that OF COURSE generous robot donors have souls! Emotions are easy. They're not really any more difficult or complicated than any other sensations.

I'm sure if cattle were able to talk, they'd talk about the mystical-magical wonders of being surrounded by your herd, and roosters would go on and on about how ripping other roosters to pieces was practically the same thing as prayer. Just because you feel something strongly doesn't make it complicated!

Here's something to think about.

As I have said, I do not believe that human emotions are 100% brain chemistry or whatever. I believe that emotions and sentience come from a human soul. However, I believe that the human body aka meatbag is just a natural biological medium for the soul to interact with the physical world. Who says that souls can't inhabit any kind of body they want? And besides, the only reason that Megadeuses and Androids seem so cold and mechanical -- and I've said this before -- is because their bodies are made of senseless metals and plastics. With no nerves and other sensory organs, they have to rely solely on electronic substitutes that don't give them all the information about their local environment and instructions on proper response, which is what makes humans act human.

So it is quite possible that the Megadeuses may be entirely human on the inside, just not able to express it because they all have fixed metal mouths with no vocal abilities.

Another weird idea (this will sound familiar to Inuyasha fans) is that perhaps when the biological body of Dorothy was destroyed in the great distaster 40 years ago, her soul lingered around Dr. Wayneright until he built her a new body for her to live in and use to interact. But in this body she would become very robot-like, having a less perceptive body with mechanical tendencies. However the inner essence is basically the same, which would of course make a romance with Roger perfectly acceptable, and even encouragable. However, there would be no sexual implications because a body of flesh and blood knows it can't have a stimulating reaction to a piece of metal. Because flesh is warm and metal is cold, flesh is soft and metal is hard, flesh has blood and metal has oil. Does Dorothy ever show any sign of rising hormones? No, because she has none. She is, as Alan puts it, a doll, art imitating life.

quote:

Rekkoha There would be no sexual implications because a body of flesh and blood knows it can't have a stimulating reaction to a piece of metal.

lol hehehehehahahhahaah (I feel my first warning coming.....)
I know plenty of people, mostly women, who have very active relationships with inanimate & semi-animate pieces of metal and plastic. Then theres actual animate machines, not goin there, that's some weird stuff. It seems as though you're unaware of the fact that in this day and age there's somebody somewhere that'll have sex with just about anything. That Roger's flesh could have a stimulated reaction to Dorothy's pieces is quite possible.

When I said stimulation, I was kinda thinking actual "action". I from what I've seen of androids, such as the one in Negotiation With The Dead, without their outer skins I see they lack any sort of reproductive options. They don't need them because they have/had people like Dr. Wayneright and Soldano to create more.
And why exactly are you so desperate to see Roger get worked up over Dorothy? She's practically the epitome of not-sexy. A cold robot who seems to have only a slight interest in romance and none at all in the hot stuff.

quote:

they lack any sort of reproductive options

Dorothy doesn't need reproductive organs for Roger to have sex with her..........

quote:

And why exactly are you so desperate to see Roger get worked up over Dorothy?

It's not that I'm desperate to see Roger get worked up over Dorothy. I'm all for new opinions and ideas but you're stating what you believe to be certainties like 'there would be no sexual implications', which is so closed minded and one sided it's bringing out my argumentative side.

EDIT:
My apologies for smutting this thread up but Rekkoha started it with the talk of 'gettin down to business' being impossible.

quote:

Originally posted by Rekkoha When I said stimulation, I was kinda thinking actual "action". I from what I've seen of androids, such as the one in Negotiation With The Dead, without their outer skins I see they lack any sort of reproductive options. They don't need them because they have/had people like Dr. Wayneright and Soldano to create more. And why exactly are you so desperate to see Roger get worked up over Dorothy? She's practically the epitome of not-sexy. A cold robot who seems to have only a slight interest in romance and none at all in the hot stuff.

Hey, dude, different strokes for different folks. Just look up the word "teledildonics" with your favorte search engine if you think that the machine option is not widely held to be attractive.

In any event Dorothy is a person, not a machine. Personally, I find women with personalities like Dorothy's to be quite attractive, and she's quite a looker, too, if you like them petite. Angel's more the kind of woman you'd paint on the side of a B-17, but I find Dorothy more attractive.

Reproduction is not particularly a problem with robots and androids, since they are clearly the result of a repeatable manufacturing process.

Which reminds me of a joke:

A martian was showing some astronauts around, and took them to see the baby factory. It was just like a car factory, with moving assembly lines, parts coming in from all directions and being bolted on, and baby martians walking out the factory to their waiting mothers.

The astronauts were dumbfounded. The martian politely asked how THEY made babies. Somewhat embarrassed, the astronauts described the process. The martian couldn't stop laughing. Finally, he managed to say, "That's how we make CARS!"

Well, I am also under the impression that Dorothy is a woman and a living being. It is a fact that she doesn't need to breathe or eat food like us. However, her needs for oil and electricity are no less important.

As for robots lacking a soul, it is not up to man and woman to say. The life and soul God (of your choosing) breathed on to us, can do the same to anything, bio or mecha. In Judeo-Christian belief, God created man from "the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." - Genesis 2:7. Is this privilege only restricted to Homo Sapiens? Can this be only done with dust? Or, is metal, silicon and copper (or gold, for the wiring) an option too?

I believe that bio and mecha can contain a soul. However, I don’t know for sure. I guess I will ask God the next time I visit.

quote:

Originally posted by Rekkoha And why exactly are you so desperate to see Roger get worked up over Dorothy? She's practically the epitome of not-sexy. A cold robot who seems to have only a slight interest in romance and none at all in the hot stuff.

Again, flawed premises. If you check out the Androids and Gender thread, I have included some clean pictures of the latest in specialty dolls.

If we can do something so real in this day and age, I am quite certain that the Paradigm androids are just as "functional" as they want to be.

Remember, Dorothy is frequently mistaken for human. Just because she isn't drawn in a way that is sexy to you doesn't mean she isn't sexy to someone else--a lot of that depends on style and preferences. For every person on this forum who thinks she isn't sexy at all, I can name names of guys here who think she's hot. It's a very personal matter.

It doesn't matter what Dorothy is made of -- she has some kind of functional feedback system. I proved this to you already, but let me restate the salient points: Dorothy interacts with the world around her at her own will. Therefore, she has some kind of sensors that correspond to nerves ("Even I can sense temperature, Roger Smith"), she has sight, she hears... the jury is out on whether she has taste or smell yet, but those aren't crucial and many people get by without them just fine. For her they would be even less crucial since she doesn't need to eat, and that's the biggest function of taste and smell.

If she has a feedback system, she can feel. It's really that simple. If she had a human soul according to your definition, in fact, one presumes the experience of emotions would be even easier.

A nerve has no inherent superiority over a wire--both conduct electrical signals. Biology and machinery both have their function. As our machines get more elaborate, the differences will become less and less important.

Ummm... you people have clearly not read all of my posts... I have many in various areas discussing the legitimacy of android/Megadeus life as opposed to standard biological human life.

And you should know... if any of this sexy stuff had appeared on Big O, I probably would have stopped watching it long ago
Sexual content for me is a turn off; if I'm to have it, let me use my masterful art skillz to create a few chicks for myself and I will be content.

And yes I do inhale Clorox on a regular basis because it makes me happy

No we read them, you can simply not prove any of what you have said in those posts. You are trying to counter a theory with another theory. Which usually leads to disaster due to the lack of evidence and hard facts.

Rekkoha, of course your decision to watch or not watch anything is purely yours, and your likes and dislikes are also not up for debate here.

However, your personal opinion as to whether or not something is right good or pleasant does not enter into the equation, at least at this stage of the debate.

A thing is either true or untrue. This is the realm of debatable and confirmable facts. Once that discusion is complete ( and that is the discussion we are currently in, IE: can a feelling robot exist) THEN, we can move on to debating the nebulous concepts of accepatbility and morality of such a thing.

I just feel that you are arguing based on your personal feelings on the subject rather than the discenable facts.

Please excuse me if this sounds like a personal attack, because it isnt. i tottaly respect your oppinion as to how you feel about such things as a "atanomically correct" androind, or the social ramifications thereof. But what is really being debated here is whether such a bieng could exist in the first place.

my 2 cents!

(edit: spelling grammar)

Well, every person has their own theory. Nobody know the correct answer, not even Dorothy. I would like to believe that Dorothy has a soul, all the evidence I have seen supports this belief. Then again, believe what you like.

quote:

Originally posted by Rekkoha And yes I do inhale Clorox on a regular basis because it makes me happy

Really? Regular and Lemon scent? Nothing better than getting high and waking up in a puddle vomit, but smelling lemonie fresh.

quote:

Originally posted by Wingnut No we read them, you can simply not prove any of what you have said in those posts. You are trying to counter a theory with another theory. Which usually leads to disaster due to the lack of evidence and hard facts.

Not a theory, an assertion.

The problem with assertions is usually the one giving them doesn't give proof other than "I said so". While that works just fine when you are the mom and you are arguing with your kids, it is no way to conduct a good debate.

I said Dorothy feels, gave a defintion of feelings that I think most can agree with, and showed where there was evidence that she experienced those feelings. This gives us grounds to debate on.

If I had merely said "Yes she does" I am also making an assertion and we begin to sound like the Monty Python sketch:

"I've come for an argument"

"No you haven't"

"Yes I have"

"No you haven't"

"Yes I have"

"No you haven't"

"This isn't an argument, it's merely contradiction"

"No it isn't."

"Yes it is."

"No it isn't."

"Yes it is."


Rekkoha, you said "you people have not read all of my posts" but I have read every word. My problem is that you have yet to offer a shred of evidence that you have a point. To back up your points, you are merely offering more assertions.

Rekkoha: Dorothy doesn't feel

Zola: Yes she does. The definition of feelings is a,b,c,d, and e and here is evidence that she experiences feelings of definitions a, b,c, and d.

Rekkoha: Dorothy doesn't have a soul

Tony: God can do anything He wants so I think that's up to God to decide. According to our knowledge of God and his capabilities from the Bible, God made man from dust, which is just as inanimate as metal and plastic. If he can make dust live, there is no reason to suppose that he cannot do the same for metal and plastic.

Rekkoha: Dorothy isn't sexy

Zola: You think Dorothy isn't sexy. I know specific people here who think she is hot.

Look at the difference, Rekkoha. Present an actual argument and you'll get a response.

*sigh*
I see my arguments have been defeated.
Oh well )
I suppose one could say that Dorothy is indeed a living thing, and that Roger may have whatever type of relationship towards her that he desires. However, it still does not change the fact that Dorothy is a man-made and therefore mechanical device.
And now we will have to cover the subject of Man creating a thing upon which he may, intentionally or otherwise, bestow life.

But the answer simple...
Man provides the body, God provides the soul. The two halves of the sphere of creation are quite prominent in Paradigm, unlike in our own reality in which only God has the power to create sentient beings.

And so I rest my case:
- Androids can and do operate under a free will of as yet mysterious origin, but presumably from some kind of soul
- Megadeuses, while decidedly robotic in behavior harbor some form of intellect and self-government
- And some people actually find Dorothy, a grave and bleak android girl who looks as though she has attended every funeral Paradigm has ever known, to be sexually attractive. Another unsolved mystery to me....

*eyes and ears perk-up*

Hmm.
I think Dorothy's HOT.
I mean, Geez!, just look at her.
In fact, in watching the series, I'm often left wondering how much longer Roger will be able to hold-out in his refusal to listen to what that little something way in the back of his mind is saying - something along the lines of:
Go with it, my man!