It went out with a bang; I think we should all be happy

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Originally posted by Malkhos quote: Originally posted by Zopwx2 Yes the ending didnt help resolve the show at all. The whole world is false, and its past, present, and future all controlled by Angel. Thats the ending? Yes, this is the only ending that is possible, beucase the world we inhabit is false. You are not so naive that you thing your senses are telling you the truth, are you? Angel is the fallen angel Lucifer, the demiurge, the creator of the world of illusion our pshyical bodies inhabit which keeps us from knowing the real world of the spirit--our lost memeories of th world as it is. This is not ficition--it is a turth revealed through art. Malkhos

I'm dissapointed, I doubt the creators started big o with the intention of describing to us the story of lucifer. If I wanted to know about him I would have went to a library and studied about him.

Big o is entertainment, If I need you and this board to explain to me what I just saw, then big o is obviously geared towards an extremely well read niche

Plus I think we are giving the creators to much credit, they just set out to make a generic giant robot show:

http://www.fansview.com/person/0720pers.htm

http://www.fansview.com/2003/animecentral/051703c.htm

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I'm dissapointed, I doubt the creators started big o with the intention of describing to us the story of lucifer. If I wanted to know about him I would have went to a library and studied about him. Big o is entertainment, If I need you and this board to explain to me what I just saw, then big o is obviously geared towards an extremely well read niche Plus I think we are giving the creators to much credit, they just set out to make a generic giant robot show: http://www.fansview.com/person/0720pers.htm http://www.fansview.com/2003/animecentral/051703c.htm

Why not? Who else could be running Paradigm City?

Patrick McGoghan never gives dumbed down explanations to fans, why would you expect Katayamna to be any differnt?

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Originally posted by Malkhos Angel is the fallen angel Lucifer, the demiurge, the creator of the world of illusion our pshyical bodies inhabit which keeps us from knowing the real world of the spirit--our lost memeories of th world as it is. This is not ficition--it is a turth revealed through art. Malkhos

Wrong. That's just another fan created theory. It has no more merit than any other fan created theory. The symbolism with Lucifer is there, but that could be all it is: symbolism. Many things weren't explained in Act 26--that's the truth.

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Originally posted by JMA quote: Originally posted by Malkhos Angel is the fallen angel Lucifer, the demiurge, the creator of the world of illusion our pshyical bodies inhabit which keeps us from knowing the real world of the spirit--our lost memeories of th world as it is. This is not ficition--it is a turth revealed through art. Malkhos Wrong. That's just another fan created theory. It has no more merit than any other fan created theory. The symbolism with Lucifer is there, but that could be all it is: symbolism. Many things weren't explained in Act 26--that's the truth.

Absolutely right, JMA. Lucifer is evil. Angel/Venus is not evil. There is no allegory here. Just perhaps an allusion (i.e. a reference).

Ok...... I understood what happend. Its not a matter of "I didn't get it", its more a matter of "I don't get why the writers did that"

I just think it was a lame direction for the show to take. Those links

( http://www.fansview.com/person/0720pers.htm
http://www.fansview.com/2003/animecentral/051703c.htm )

don't give me alot of confidence in their actual intentions for the show. It leads me to believe the creators just wanted a cool show about robots, I mean taking a phrase from coan, just becuase it sounded cool? Couldn't this apply to any of the other references and themes in the show.

Its obvious that season 2 was not thought of when season 1 was finished. They even say that certain characters like Alan Gabriel were made up just for season 2. Maybe this whole lucifer thing was thought up just for season 2.

Well You are all tired of my ramblings, who cares wether or not it was a good ending, I just don't want it to end.

If you like it the way it is fine, just stop ruining our efforts for season 3.

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Originally posted by Malkhos Plus I think we are giving the creators to much credit, they just set out to make a generic giant robot show:

If you talk to any author about what they had in mind when they started writing, they either take the high road or the low road. With the high road, they shovel out a bunch of pretentious crapola to convince you that the reason you hated their work was that you're too stupid to understand it.

With the low road, they actually list some of the things they had in mind when coming up with the concept. Such lists always sound dull and totally uninspiring. If you aren't used to it, these lists of things like, "I liked the Batmobile, and the lighting in THE MALTESE FALCON was very good, and the James Bond gadgets add spice, and you can't beat massive amounts of collateral damage for filling the audience with a childish delight -- oh, and let's have a love triangle, too, with one of the gals as one of those spunky secretary types who's secretly in love with the boss, and the other one a foreign spy, but not named Natasha, okay? Let's be the only show that has one who's not named Natasha." Such lists don't sound like the makings of a show, they sound like a hopeless mishmash (actually, what I just gave you is better than you get from most authors, because I'm being funny. Stephen King does this a lot better than I do. He can't describe ANY of his books without cracking up his interviewers). But you gotta start somewhere.

You can imagine a reporter asking Shakespeare how he came up with the idea of staging HENRY V. "Well, I'd already done HENRY IV, and I wanted to do HENRY VI, but I said to myself, Will, I said, maybe I'd better slot in HENRY V first, so people won't complain. And we've got a lot of helmets and shields and stuff from old productions, so it won't cost too much to stage Agincourt. And we can have a whole scene in French so the audience will have a chance to go to the bathroom and buy refreshements without missing anything."

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Malkhos? Nope Zopwx2, Malkhos just didn't do the quotes right... Plus I think we are giving the creators to much credit, they just set out to make a generic giant robot show: If you talk to any author about what they had in mind when they started writing, they either take the high road or the low road. With the high road, they shovel out a bunch of pretentious crapola to convince you that the reason you hated their work was that you're too stupid to understand it. With the low road, they actually list some of the things they had in mind when coming up with the concept. Such lists always sound dull and totally uninspiring. If you aren't used to it, these lists of things like, "I liked the Batmobile, and the lighting in THE MALTESE FALCON was very good, and the James Bond gadgets add spice, and you can't beat massive amounts of collateral damage for filling the audience with a childish delight -- oh, and let's have a love triangle, too, with one of the gals as one of those spunky secretary types who's secretly in love with the boss, and the other one a foreign spy, but not named Natasha, okay? Let's be the only show that has one who's not named Natasha." Such lists don't sound like the makings of a show, they sound like a hopeless mishmash (actually, what I just gave you is better than you get from most authors, because I'm being funny. Stephen King does this a lot better than I do. He can't describe ANY of his books without cracking up his interviewers). But you gotta start somewhere. You can imagine a reporter asking Shakespeare how he came up with the idea of staging HENRY V. "Well, I'd already done HENRY IV, and I wanted to do HENRY VI, but I said to myself, Will, I said, maybe I'd better slot in HENRY V first, so people won't complain. And we've got a lot of helmets and shields and stuff from old productions, so it won't cost too much to stage Agincourt. And we can have a whole scene in French so the audience will have a chance to go to the bathroom and buy refreshements without missing anything."

Sure.........

I'm just saying you can't attempt to change the meaning (or create a whole new one) in a show like big o. If they tried to shove in some sort of complex new subplot to the show half-way through it, maybe thats why I feel wierd.

Season 1 is big o for me, season 2 should have been more season 1, but they changed it. I like them both though, but in my mind I see them as seperate shows. Sort of like a sequel to a movie I like...

...I'm rambling again....

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato And we can have a whole scene in French so the audience will have a chance to go to the bathroom and buy refreshements without missing anything."

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Originally posted by Zopwx2 Season 1 is big o for me, season 2 should have been more season 1, but they changed it. I like them both though, but in my mind I see them as seperate shows. Sort of like a sequel to a movie I like...

I don't see it that way. While there are significant differences between the plot structures of the two seasons (Season 1 was mostly episodic while Season 2 was always To Be Continued), the ideas that were revealed in Season 2 like looping, false memories, the Union, the idea of Angel having fallen from her state of power, etc. were all discussed (often at great length) in Season 1.

It's because of this that I believe a Season 3 would not be as bad as some on this forum want to believe. It sounds to me that the writers have thought out a number of different directions to take the show and are quite able to pursue them.

Edit: All of the above is part of why I like "Winter Night Phantom" so much. It's a transition between the earlier, introductory episodes and the metaplot narrative of Season 2. Plus, it's intriguing and mordant and captures the film-noir aspect so well.

I like winter night phantom too, and I think season 3 could work.....

(hmm I thought I had more to say...)

Now here's a thought. How many of us were around two years ago when Season 1 ended, seemingly for good? I wouldn't be suprised if there was the same comments on how "It couldn't be good enough" or "It'll never reach the bar set by the last Season"

If we get Season 3, primarly it will be to get money out of an established franchise with a large fanbase. There's always the risk that it will be a total flop that just leaves a sour taste in the mind of fans. But there's nothing lost by the attempt really. If it's bad, okay, I'll have my DVD's, I can just watch 26 unedited and say it ended there, no harm done. But if it's good, well then we win don't we, another 13 episodes of a great and well done show.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. As the fans, we have nothing to lose by venturing

As for me, I would happily write 13 more episodes of Big O. Just give me the job and a decent salary. I have no problem coming up with new stories. Could I make them as good, or better than the previous ones? While keeping alive the fim noir atmosphere, the kick*ss battles, the romance, the mystery, the symbolism? Try me...

Seriously, many people out there could continue the series at the same or a higher level. The real problem is economics. Cartoon Network/ Sunrise need to see that there is a market, otherwise nothing will happen. While the high art of the anime motivates us, this is at best a secondary consideration for the producers.

quote:

Originally posted by Zopwx2 I'm dissapointed, I doubt the creators started big o with the intention of describing to us the story of lucifer. If I wanted to know about him I would have went to a library and studied about him. Big o is entertainment, If I need you and this board to explain to me what I just saw, then big o is obviously geared towards an extremely well read niche Plus I think we are giving the creators to much credit, they just set out to make a generic giant robot show: http://www.fansview.com/person/0720pers.htm http://www.fansview.com/2003/animecentral/051703c.htm

(Emphasis is mine)

One of the appealing factors of Big O is, in my opinion, the ambiguity. We've seen, with all the different theories flying around, that Big O obviously poses questions (and provides answers) on multiple levels. That's one reason why I, personally, was satisified with the ending.

Now, you claim that Big O is entertainment. I agree with you. But are you telling me that posing intellectual questions, that may be "hidden" within a show (such as Big O) isn't entertainment? And I don't see what's wrong with taking Big O at face value (which is obviously how you are defining entertainment in this sense) and ignoring all the philisophical elements (such as Malkhos has addressed several times before). There are different forms of entertainment, and Big O provides this entertainment on several levels, so I fail to see what's wrong with that.

I'd also like to say something...in the Official Guide to Big O, I'm pretty sure some of the members here translated a part of it where Big Venus was referred to Lucifer. Now, this is just a guess, but I would think that since the official guide is referring Lucifer to Venus, it might just be true...

Now, as for giving the creators too much credit...sometimes, when you begin something, what you end up with is vastly different. I'll give you an example...Tolkein's Lord of the Rings. Initially, all it was going to be was a children's story...a sequal to the Hobbit. But as he wrote it, it evolved into a grand epic, fitting in with the myths and legends he had already began about Middle-Earth. Now, does the humble intention, which was eventually warped through the creation of the story, belittle the product? I don't think it does in this case, and nor should it be the case with Big O.

Finally, you continually tell those in the community who don't want a season 3 to stop interfering with those who do. I thought that all opinions were welcome here...if people don't want a season 3, I don't see what's wrong with them stating their opinions and, if they realyl want to, attempting to block efforts for a season 3. Especially since you, as pro-season 3, are trying to block their efforts...I think it works both ways. The ideal situation would probably have both sides doing nothing, but if one side is allowed to act, I think it's fair that the other side is allowed to act as well, but that's just my opinion.

Now that my rambling is done, on to my own ideas for a Season 3...

Well, Malkhos provided some very persuasive arguments a while back that I bought in to concerning the nature of some of the symbolism of Big O, and I think I have to agree...if there is a third season, the creators would probably have to take a departure so as not to address the same issues over and over again...because then things would start to get boring pretty quickly.

I don't know...while I wouldn't mind a third season of Big O, I think I'd rather see a prequel than a sequel, though I suppose either one would work if done adequately. Personally, I think I'd rather see a movie over another season though...especially if the prequel is about, say, the Event, Seebach's transformation to Schwarzwald, Roger's days in the Military Police...

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Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix I'd also like to say something...in the Official Guide to Big O, I'm pretty sure some of the members here translated a part of it where Big Venus was referred to Lucifer. Now, this is just a guess, but I would think that since the official guide is referring Lucifer to Venus, it might just be true...

If that were true, why do you think that it wasn't rendered as Lucifer in the English editions?

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I don't know...while I wouldn't mind a third season of Big O, I think I'd rather see a prequel than a sequel, though I suppose either one would work if done adequately. Personally, I think I'd rather see a movie over another season though...especially if the prequel is about, say, the Event, Seebach's transformation to Schwarzwald, Roger's days in the Military Police...

I personally would prefer a movie which serves as a prequel and larger exploration of the philosophical issues followed by a third season talking about what happened following the reset and explaining why Paradigm exists and who created it.

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Originally posted by Malkhos If there were a third season it would have to explore compeletely differntly material, in the new world--probably quite differnt than the Paradigm city we know--created in episode 26. Perhaps it would be be better to concetrate on establishing new realtionships between the characters--there ahs already been a joking suggestion here that a new romantic triangle could be established in which the primary attatchement was between Angel and Dorothoy with Roger on the outside. But something like that could lend new interest--it would certianly help sell the show in Japan! And such a series could have a happier, a finer tone--which seems to be something that many in the fan community want to see. The new season could be like the Paradiso comapred to the Inferno we have already seen. I certianyl would have no interst in seeing a rehashing of older material--as often seems to be envisioned here and eslwhere.

I think this is partially true. There will definitely have to be new themes in any sequel material (movie or seasons). A Dorothy-Angel thing would be completely out of character since Dorothy has an abiding love for Roger which she wouldn't give up under any circumstance.

I would hope that Dorthy and Roger's relationship would never become fully romantic since that would absolutely ruin the characters who are built around the tragic themes of unobtainable love. The show would similarly be ruined (not to mention clichéd) if Dorothy were to be made into a human.

The real mine of material for sequels would be in exploring what happened 40 years ago, who/when/why was Paradigm made, is it possible to leave, is it all a fake, is there an "outside" world, how did Norman get his eyepatch, how did Seebach get so screwed up, the nature of megadeus intelligence, do androids have souls... And that's just keeping with the existing themes and characters. If you introduce new ones (which one would have to to keep things fresh), many more possibilities emerge.

What are you talking about? The series ended with a bunch of babbling from Roger Smith. Who was basically rephrasing the whole garbage about I am who I am regardless of what I really am (crazy..huh?). He also included a plee to Angel about acknowledging her own feelings and living as a human being. Oh, and he asked her to let the people decide for themselves what they wan't to forget and what they wan't to remember. The only bang to speak of was the Final Stage. Which we all know didn't "end" anything.

Except for the main dome which has been wrecked numerous times by the other bigs and various megadai. It eventually had to go...

Edit: I'm all for season three. CN bring it on you make we watch.

Ignoring what I think about the ending, all I say now is that I believe we have NOTHING to lose by asking for a 3rd season.

I have no problem with opinions, just don't go out and start an anti-season 3 pettition or somthing, and I'll be fine.

I'm with you two guys.

Did it end with a buncha' babbling?
You betcha'.
I still have clear visions of looking at the clock on the wall as the last minutes of #26 ticked down, saying to myself:
"This can't be it."

Do I want a season three?
You can say that again.

To me, they ended it on such a vague, cloudy note, that they could pick it back up without straining their Bohemian brains too badly at all.
And do a fine job of it.
In fact, I'd bet that such a thing was kept in the back of their minds as they wrote the ending - whether the writers would fess-up to it or not.

What would I like to see in a new season?
A return to what we watched with the earlier episodes:
Simpler storytelling.
I'd bet that the original idea for the storyline was simple enough.
But, by the time it ended, things had become too muddlied-up with unexplained images and meanings - things that take away from the original idea of the story to begin with, in my opinion.

I'd hope that they didn't put as much effort into being clever with the metaphors and directed that energy toward producing a #27 that gives my the same feeling I got from watching #1.
That was great.

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Originally posted by Malkhos There were no unanswered questions. They just seem to ahve been answered in a language some don't understand.

Sigh. I disagree in the strongest possible terms. But perhapse you can provide a translation service for me, for that language I obviously don't understand. I will avoid asking about all the small, medium, and large unanswered questions and try to go directly to the heart of the mystery of Big O - Please answer the following questions you obviously think have already been answered - and please tell me where in Big O you think they were answered:

#1 Why was the Paradigm City simulation run?

#2 What was the event? I'm not talking about a 'rewind' event, I'm talking about the memory flashbacks Roger has of Megadei fighting, and the Bigs destroying Paradigm City / New York.

#3 What is Roger's importance? Why is he different/special?

Either I've missed something really big, or you have. I think of the story so far as an Agatha Christie or Shelock Holmes novel with the last few chapters missing.

I await the answers I have so obviously overlooked.