Discuss the Current Episode

Okay, the whole thing about Beck knowing Roger's identity.

Beck definitly did know in this episode. He even says as the Beck Victory Deluxe is chasing Roger, "Turn about is fair play!" Why else would he say that if he didn't know Roger was the one who piloted Big O?

As for Beck saying a sudden memory came to him in Act 17, we don't know when it was he had that memory. It could have very likely been before Act 9, during his first stay in prison. The reason Roger is surprised by Beck knowing in Act 17 is because up until that point Roger didn't know that Beck knew his identity- Beck really did nothing in front of Roger in Act 9 to show he knew, and Roger probably couldn't hear Beck's snide little comment in the cockpit of the Beck Victory Deluxe.

I can think of worse ways to meet my end than to be hugged to death by such a lovely little thing.

I'm attempting to relish in these first few episodes, as I'm sure the main plot will start soon, right? It's nice having a break to see the adventures of Roger the Negotatiator and his sidekick Dorothy before the Rosewaters become involved.

Just realized today is a Friday, and Big O won't be on tonight. It seems that this occurs every Friday, and really gets me down.

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Originally posted by Narsham quote: Originally posted by Zopwx2 I'm just saying most likley the writers were not 100% sure on exactly how Angel would do whatever it is she did, when they finished act 13. Well, I think that's pretty much true on every show and every movie (every novel, etc, etc). You're never quite sure exactly where the story and characters will lead you. That doesn't mean you don't have a specific plan in mind from the start which you foreshadow as much as you can, simply that the end point you reach may not be exactly what you expected. Anyone here familiar with Babylon 5 will know that the five-year arc was determined at the beginning of the show. While there were some major changes (especially cast changes, and a shift to a potentially four-year arc), the shape of the entire show still conformed perhaps 90% to the original intention. That show, too, was heavy into foreshadowing, prophecy, etc. That said, I think you've got a stronger argument if you want to argue that the writers sat down to do a rethink for the second season, given the gap between seasons one and two. The question then becomes, what did they decide to modify, and what remained as it was? I don't see that much of a shift in Angel or the Angel-Roger relationship. Narsham

Well in a show like big o I hope at least when the started the show they knew where they were going. For example when they say that nonone had memories of 40 years ago they better know what caused it.

....basicly I want to know if they had that whole holdeck thing and venus planned from day 1. Or made it up as they went along.

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Originally posted by ZeaLitY I'm attempting to relish in these first few episodes, as I'm sure the main plot will start soon, right? It's nice having a break to see the adventures of Roger the Negotatiator and his sidekick Dorothy before the Rosewaters become involved. Just realized today is a Friday, and Big O won't be on tonight. It seems that this occurs every Friday, and really gets me down.

OF COURSE! the last 4 episodes are the best of the whole season. well... act 4 is up there too.

Act 10 is on of my favorites. The first time I saw it there was so much mystery, I loved it.

Plus its one of the big o episodes I just love to watch just becuase its done so beautifly.

Very Dastun-Centric and throws out alot of quick plot lines. I don't want to give too much away.

act 11: a christmas episode with a disposable plot line. But also drawn beautifly. Though there are a few clues to the overall story line. About religon and how paradigm runs things.

act 12+13 I wont explain them, just watch. They are by far the best 2 episodes in the entire big o series.

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Originally posted by ZeaLitY I'm attempting to relish in these first few episodes, as I'm sure the main plot will start soon, right? It's nice having a break to see the adventures of Roger the Negotatiator and his sidekick Dorothy before the Rosewaters become involved.

The main plot is already rolling. We saw Alex Rosewater for the first time in THE UNDERGROUND TERROR, way back in Act 4, and the tension between him and the good folks outside the dome was made pretty clear in ELECTRIC CITY (Act 3), and again in CALL FROM THE PAST (Act 7), when he wants the Military Police to let the Sea Titan destroy some of the city outside the domes before they attack it.

Who is on what side is made very clear in CALL FROM THE PAST, with Alex as the villain, Dastun and Roger (and Big O and Dorothy and Norman) as the heroes, and Angel as a question mark.

I'm thinking that act 4 was kind of a taster for the last couple episodes. if you like act 4 you'll like act 12.

Act 13 is entirely its own style, its like roger finaly decided to confront alot of the obvious questions that everyone has been ignoring.

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Originally posted by Narsham Anyone here familiar with Babylon 5 will know that the five-year arc was determined at the beginning of the show. While there were some major changes (especially cast changes, and a shift to a potentially four-year arc), the shape of the entire show still conformed perhaps 90% to the original intention. That show, too, was heavy into foreshadowing, prophecy, etc.

Long side note - There are those who believe Babylon 5 actually differed far more than 10% from what B5's creator JMS origionally intended. The theory goes something like:
Sinclair was never suppose to leave. He was to fall in love with Delenn just as Sheridan eventually did. Season 4 was to end with the conclusion of the Shadow war, with season 5 covering the liberation of Earth and it's colonies. The destruction of the Babylon 5 station, as fortold in Signs and Portents was not to occur (as it did in the last episode) simply because the station was unused, it was to be destroyed in the final conflict. JMS, BTW is the source of the 'unused' explanation - which many B5 fans felt was particularly lame. Finally, in the last episode, Sinclair was to take the Babylon 4 station back in time, and become Valen (as seen in War Without End) - making a nice full circle to the story arc. Due to Michael O'Hare's departure (the actor who played Sinclair), and doubts that season 5 would ever happen, JMS radically reworked his story arc. At least that is the theory.

I think this eerily mirrors some of the differences between season one and two of Big O. It may partially explain why season two ended so strangely - as if the creators of Big O were unsure whether to end the entire series, or leave open the possibility for a third season. This is ment as nothing more than observation and speculation. It probably simply reflects the dangers any series with a multi-season story arc faces.

There was something I'd forgotten about this episode since the first time I saw it.

The beating-down of Beck Victory Deluxe is a really good fight. It's almost as good as Roger v. Schwarzwald.

in regards to Missing Cat, did anyone note how when Dorothy finds Pero, her umbrella blows away? That was huge. Remeber in act 13 when R*D and Roger are talking about destiny and free will, the lack of umbrellas came to represent free will. This ties in nicely with Pero unlocking her emotions, and by extension free will.

In regards to Beck's "recent memory" in Greatest Villian, remember he is trcking the Japanese investers, so nothing he says really has to be true.

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Originally posted by Tab in regards to Missing Cat, did anyone note how when Dorothy finds Pero, her umbrella blows away? That was huge. Remeber in act 13 when R*D and Roger are talking about destiny and free will, the lack of umbrellas came to represent free will. This ties in nicely with Pero unlocking her emotions, and by extension free will.

A fellow Big O watcher in another forum once pointed that out as a metaphor for Dorothy losing her relative innocence, her shelteredness if you will, as she discovers her own capacity for emotion. It opens her up to all sorts of subsequent hazards, of the heart and otherwise, but "that's what it means to live free." Nice piece of multitasking symbolism.

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Originally posted by Tab in regards to Missing Cat, did anyone note how when Dorothy finds Pero, her umbrella blows away? That was huge. Remeber in act 13 when R*D and Roger are talking about destiny and free will, the lack of umbrellas came to represent free will. This ties in nicely with Pero unlocking her emotions, and by extension free will.

Really nice observation Tab! I remembered the umbrella blowing way, but never thought of the significance. BTW, Welcome to Paradigm City forums!

I'm not in the mood to go finding Bible cites to disprove you, Narsham, but it's said repeatedly in the Bible that Lucifer was a fallen angel. Of course, since angels are believed to have wings, how could they fall w/o having their wings cut?

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Originally posted by R Trusedale Thoughts about the hugging scene.... Beck is a twisted genius. Presumably he saw Roger's recue of Dorothy in episode 2, he would be aware of Roger's love for Dorothy. Perhaps from there he guessed she might also feel the same? In any case he built that mind controlling tiara (hellcrown?) based on what he guessed.

"Beck Comes Back" ruined his character for me. In the first two episodes, Beck was a smooth operator, if somewhat foolish. BCB was written by a different person and I dislike the direction they took the character. The footclapping thing is just idiotic and beneath even the Joker. Plus, Beck is obviously not insane so you can't justify the turn he takes in this episode.

I do like the rest of the episode, but it's not one of my favs because of what happened to Beck.

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Act 10 is on of my favorites. The first time I saw it there was so much mystery, I loved it. Plus its one of the big o episodes I just love to watch just becuase its done so beautifly. Very Dastun-Centric and throws out alot of quick plot lines. I don't want to give too much away.

I'd have to agree. "Winter Night Phantom" is the first episode in which the underlying mysteries of Paradigm City are first introduced. Plus, it has the most effective script of any episode, the buildup is excellent and the catharsis is exquisitely mordant. WNP is a great take on the film noir detective motif. If you haven't seen it, don't miss this one on Monday night!

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Originally posted by Zopwx2 Well in a show like big o I hope at least when the started the show they knew where they were going. For example when they say that nonone had memories of 40 years ago they better know what caused it. ....basicly I want to know if they had that whole holdeck thing and venus planned from day 1. Or made it up as they went along.

Well, I don't want to dissappoint you, but on the first DVD, they say explicitly that they came up with the erased memories idea as a way to avoid explaining why people would ever go around piloting these gigantic walking robots when there are much more effective ways of waging war.

That doesn't mean that they couldn't think of some cool background story later, though. Which I think they have, btw. It just needs to be explained more.

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Originally posted by Pythagoras Well, I don't want to dissappoint you, but on the first DVD, they say explicitly that they came up with the erased memories idea as a way to avoid explaining why people would ever go around piloting these gigantic walking robots when there are much more effective ways of waging war. That doesn't mean that they couldn't think of some cool background story later, though. Which I think they have, btw. It just needs to be explained more.

That's right. It's important not to confuse a discussion of "what we were thinking about when we started working on the show" with "what we decided in the end."

Lots of times people make decisions with a conscoious reason that sounds bogus, trivial, or stupidly theatrical, but of course the real reason the authors went for it is that it clicked for them on several different levels and meshed with other ideas they had.

Not explaining the Megadeuses was a great gimmick. The Megadeuses use an anomalous technology that doesn't mesh with the rest of Paradigm. This adds mystery to the show. It isn't even clear that the memory loss and the Megadeuses are closely linked in any fundamental way.

They later twist the knife by making it so that the people who talk the most about how the world work are either ignorant, self-deluding fools (Alex Rosewater, Vera), crazy (Schwarzwald, R.D.), or incoherent (Gordon Rosewater). It's an especially nice touch that the person who knows the most and has done the most (Gordon) disclaims all responsibility for the situation, and denies the truth of his writings!

Of all the people who natter on about how he world works, only Gordon is even vaguely trustworthy. And a lot of the background is given in a combination of dreams, visions, and hallucinations, the accuracy of which is suspect.

All of which is is good for atmosphere, though the crescendo of mysterious happenings in the last few acts was more than some viewers could take.

"Well, I don't want to dissappoint you, but on the first DVD, they say explicitly that they came up with the erased memories idea as a way to avoid explaining why people would ever go around piloting these gigantic walking robots when there are much more effective ways of waging war."

It shouldn't take away from the experience that the story was originally intended as much less. When Tolkien first wrote the Hobbit, he chose to have Bilbo find the magic ring as a way for him to get out of certain tough spots he would get into. He had no idea it would eventually become something much, much deeper when he wrote Lord of the Rings.

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato It's important not to confuse a discussion of "what we were thinking about when we started working on the show" with "what we decided in the end."

Especially for a series that at first only existed as a way to sell a toy robot. That line about how it doesn't matter how you came into being but how you lived your life must've had an interesting resonance for the show's creators.

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Originally posted by Bentar Long side note - There are those who believe Babylon 5 actually differed far more than 10% from what B5's creator JMS origionally intended. The theory goes something like: Sinclair was never suppose to leave. He was to fall in love with Delenn just as Sheridan eventually did. Season 4 was to end with the conclusion of the Shadow war, with season 5 covering the liberation of Earth and it's colonies. The destruction of the Babylon 5 station, as fortold in Signs and Portents was not to occur (as it did in the last episode) simply because the station was unused, it was to be destroyed in the final conflict. JMS, BTW is the source of the 'unused' explanation - which many B5 fans felt was particularly lame. Finally, in the last episode, Sinclair was to take the Babylon 4 station back in time, and become Valen (as seen in War Without End) - making a nice full circle to the story arc. Due to Michael O'Hare's departure (the actor who played Sinclair), and doubts that season 5 would ever happen, JMS radically reworked his story arc. At least that is the theory. I think this eerily mirrors some of the differences between season one and two of Big O. It may partially explain why season two ended so strangely - as if the creators of Big O were unsure whether to end the entire series, or leave open the possibility for a third season. This is ment as nothing more than observation and speculation. It probably simply reflects the dangers any series with a multi-season story arc faces.

See, I don't see that as a major change.

This really depends on what you think planning and plotting actually mean.

I very much doubt that JMS' outline had specific events slated to happen in specific episodes, or even specific seasons in many cases. He just had major signposts set up along the route.

If the story ends up taking a detour, you still end up making all the "stops" you were planning to make, you may just have to make them in a slightly different order.

In any event, the advantage with doing an animated series is that you know your stars aren't going to leave.

It isn't until you sit down to write an episode that you become sure that NOW is the time to hit that signpost.

Narsham

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Originally posted by Pythagoras I'm not in the mood to go finding Bible cites to disprove you, Narsham, but it's said repeatedly in the Bible that Lucifer was a fallen angel. Of course, since angels are believed to have wings, how could they fall w/o having their wings cut?

Do you really want to discuss the physics of angel flight?

Clearly, angels fly because God allows them to fly.

So if God says an angel can't fly, the angel can't fly.

In any event, the fall from heaven was a figural fall. The Fall of mankind (Garden of Eden story) doesn't involve Adam and Eve sliding down a cliff.

The cosmology of the early church places Hell at the center of the Earth, as far away from Heaven as it is possible to get, so in that respect the fall of the angels was made literal.

But if you try applying that model to the Big O world, you end up with Alex Rosewater = God being exactly as accurate as Big Venus/Lucifer = Satan.

Plus, how do you justify and explain the wings we see in Episode 26?

Narsham