Discuss the Current Episode

I am sutably wowed. Every time I see Missing Cat, it seems to have more of an emotional impact with me. The scenes with Dorothy and Pero are bad enough. But the subtle scenes at the end - Dorothy holding her cuffed hands out to the Pero-monster - Big O's blocking Dorothy from following with his hand - the Pero-monster looking back over its shoulder at Dorothy, before walking into the flames - Dorothy pausing at the spot she origionally found Pero. Simple, subtle greatness. I can not remember when the last time I saw anything on tv that had anywhere near the same effect.

I'm just sometimes particularly impressed at what the writers and director were able to get squezed into a little 22-someodd minute 'sleeper' anime show. At least I'm not alone.

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Originally posted by Bentar I am sutably wowed. Every time I see Missing Cat, it seems to have more of an emotional impact with me. The scenes with Dorothy and Pero are bad enough. But the subtle scenes at the end - Dorothy holding her cuffed hands out to the Pero-monster - Big O's blocking Dorothy from following with his hand - the Pero-monster looking back over its shoulder at Dorothy, before walking into the flames - Dorothy pausing at the spot she origionally found Pero. Simple, subtle greatness. I can not remember when the last time I saw anything on tv that had anywhere near the same effect.

Another one that gets me: at the very end, when Dorothy hops down from the balcony and we see only the top of her head as she thanks Roger and hurries back into the house. I've always wondered what Roger saw in her face to produce that startled, stricken look on his as he follows her. It's a beautiful little character moment.

i like demonseed that sax guys pants rock

and i agree missingcat is sad i lost a pet too actually i lost 3
dog and 2 hamsters

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Originally posted by Penny Century Another one that gets me: at the very end, when Dorothy hops down from the balcony and we see only the top of her head as she thanks Roger and hurries back into the house. I've always wondered what Roger saw in her face to produce that startled, stricken look on his as he follows her. It's a beautiful little character moment.

Much agreed. She seemed to be heading off quickly as if she was suddenly uncomfortable. If she had been a human girl, I think she might have been about to cry. One other note - that particular scene had a short instrumental version of And Forever... playing to it - another very unusual thing.

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From dominusofdeath: i like demonseed that sax guys pants rock

Yeah, me,too.
The funny thing with me is, I wore pants just like those - style and color design.
Funny how styles come and go like the wind.

The only observation I made in this episode is that perhaps Dorothy experienced envy, a human emotion, when seeing the impressive portrait of Wise's wife, Mary, in his mansion. This may explain her desire to be painted in a similar manner. The picture also bore a strange resemblance to Angel, and perhaps this touched on the supposed 'rivalry.' It's also somewhat interesting that Roger is able to finish the eyes after the locking gaze experienced during the bear hug scene.

Wow, it is impossible not to love Beck. What a goof...clap your feet!

Other than this instance, does the series distinctly reveal a love between Roger and Dorothy? (I've only seen the episodes up to now and 19 and onward) I believe it'd be nice if it were truly fleshed out, rather than being left to inference. One inquiry is whether her 'I love you' statement was programmed by Beck as a sick, ironic comment to accompany the bear hug squeezing, or if it's a true statement.

Edit: Also a bit disturbing that Dastun is still able to easily believe Roger has committed the kidnapping at this point. Also, who might the friend be that polished off his choice drink?

Best thing -- Dorothy overcomes Beck's programming when her eyes meet Roger's. Back at the mansion, while Dorothy is still unconscious, Roger paints in the eyes on Dorothy's portrait. I think that her eyes are much on his mind, right then.

Worst things -- The "frame" doesn't make any sense. The victim is alive and conscious, and would vouch for Roger as a non-kidnapper immediately. So would Wise. Roger would almost certainly not have spent a night in jail, and might not have been taken down to the station. Who cares? He had no reason to flee.

Also, Beck has a grudge against Roger in this episode, which implies that he knows Roger is the pilot of Big O. (And why not? He ought to have been able to watch Roger's dramatic rescue of Dorothy as it happened.) But in THE GREATEST VILLAIN, he alleges that he suddenly realized that Roger was the pilot of Big O through a sudden memory. How could he possibly have forgotten in the first place?

I like the way it's not 100% clear who is saying Dorothy's lines while she's being mind-controlled. Did Beck make her say this, or is she speaking on her own? I suspect that it's Dorothy; while you might think that she ought to say something like "I'm sorry" while she squeezes the life out of Roger, I don't think we ever hear her apologize for anything in the 26 episodes of the show.

Dorothy looks wonderful when she's in her role as "Roger's partner on a case." Yum, yum! She seems to have gotten tired of pretending to be a member of the domestic staff, and comfortable enough to spend a lot of time one-on-one with Roger.

That's bothered me a lot too -- that Dastun was so ready to believe Roger could be a kidnapper.

But this has always been one of my favorite episodes just the same.

I don't know if Beck was putting those words in Dorothy's mouth, or if his control gizmo only *allowed* her to say them, by lowering her inhibitions, sort of. I guess we'll never know for sure.

Doc

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Originally posted by dr_malaki That's bothered me a lot too -- that Dastun was so ready to believe Roger could be a kidnapper. But this has always been one of my favorite episodes just the same. I don't know if Beck was putting those words in Dorothy's mouth, or if his control gizmo only *allowed* her to say them, by lowering her inhibitions, sort of. I guess we'll never know for sure. Doc

I doubt it.. Remember the 'Android Lover' thing Beck keeps going on about?

And I agree, Beck's amnesia of Roger being the pilot is mysterious. ESPECIALLY consider then, surprise, when he tries to stomp Roger, out comes Big O. That's too opportune to be coincidence.

One thing I noticed is that both Dorothy and Roger seem to have accepted the premise that she could love. The Roger of a few episodes back would have dismissed the possibility than an android could love (or perhaps just that Dorothy could love, since he did seem to consider Instro so "human"). Here he can't just do that as an answer to her question, but instead is aware of the theoretical possibility that the answer could be yes.

And Dorothy considers the possibility she could hypothetically undergo emotional experiences such as falling in love, a big change from her believing that she deal with things like fear in Underground Terror before she encountered Archetype, as well as a direct contradiction of her statement of not having to worry about feelings such as nostalgia later on in the series.

I guess the events in Missing Cat have opened both their eyes to the fact that Dorothy is capable of a whole gamut of emotions.

I like how for the second episode in a row, Dorothy is a major player in the action.
It was cool having her and Roger drive all around Paradigm, together, like an unseparable team, working on their case.
Sure is better than having her stuck at home, polishing the hourglasses or folding Roger's shirts while he bops around town on his own.
In fact, if I were her. I'd have said:
"Roger...
Why don't you take me out of the Bank for a day more often?"
Knowing the dark-suited Paradigm Negotiator, she probably wouldn't get a satisfactory answer.
*sighs*

Damn.
I wanna' job where I can get up when I'm damn good and ready, drive around town all day (and night) with my lovely employee, and knock-off early to go back to my Bank and indulge in a bit of portrait painting.

Roger's got some big brass ones, handling the kidnapper's phone calls like he did. He's either truly the best in town, or rolling some major dice.

And there it is: One of my favorite scenes.
Don't know where it came from, but I like it when Roger kicks open the kidnapper's cabin door and he and Dorothy spread out on either side.
When I first saw that, it was unexpected and it touched a pleasure sensor somewhere in the back of my mind.
I still like it.
Also, when Dorothy goes over to Francis and removes his gag, the way she looks while being illuminated in the ambient light is captivating.
Another Thumb Over PAUSE Button moment, for sure.

I'm wondering if Beck has some kind of laughing disorder.
Scenario:
"Aww, gee, boss.
Looks like we're on our way back to the slammer."
Beck: "HAA-HAA-HAA-HAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!"

Damn it.
Everyone's got their weaknesses or vulnerabilities.
Superman has his Kryptonite.
Count Dracula has his crucifix.
And poor Dorothy has her electromagnets.
Roger's pretty pissed, alright, not taking too much time at all for him and Big O to unleach a severe ass beating on Beck and his cronies.
Atta boy, Rog.
I'd give you a pat on the back...if I could.

Today's forecast:
Raining robot heads.

Roger, if there was ever one time that you made me feel good about your stubborn, pig-headed, Help-Me!-I-Need-A-Clue ways through all 26 episodes, it was at the resolution of this one...well, also at the end of Hydra, but that's on a whole 'nother DVD:
Keeping Dorothy the way she had always been was the right choice, fella.
Good going, my man.
After all, isn't that what frienship is all about? - admiring someone for who they really are, inside and outside, faults or not?
Thumbs up, Roger.

Write these words down:
"If...neither of us had memories and we met...so, then would you and I fall in love, as well?"

Damn it, Roger.
Just answer the question - the real question.

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Originally posted by X Prime And I agree, Beck's amnesia of Roger being the pilot is mysterious. ESPECIALLY consider then, surprise, when he tries to stomp Roger, out comes Big O. That's too opportune to be coincidence.

It could be a point in favor of those who speculate that there are resets and/or mini-mindwipes going on even within Paradigm City's current reality. It seems a lot to take on faith that Beck didn't learn in "Dorothy, Dorothy" that Roger was Big O's pilot. There were too many opportunities for him to see Roger doing it, especially when Roger pulled Little Dorothy out of her really, really big sister's guts. And if Beck had doubts about that, they should have been wiped away in "Beck Comes Back."

However, if Beck had lost the memory of Roger's role in the intervening time, maybe his electrocution really did jar the memory loose.

Or, you know, maybe this is the same cartoon principle whereby Superman puts on a pair of glasses and suddenly no one recognizes him.

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From ZeaLitY: Other than this instance, does the series distinctly reveal a love between Roger and Dorothy? (I've only seen the episodes up to now and 19 and onward) I believe it'd be nice if it were truly fleshed out, rather than being left to inference.

You're speaking my language.

I wouldn't want to spoil anything for you...unless that's what you want.
There's always that chance that the raven-suited Negotiator will quit beating around the bush and address the issue once and for all.

I mean:
They wouldn't just leave us hanging on such an important point...would they?

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Originally posted by ZeaLitY Other than this instance, does the series distinctly reveal a love between Roger and Dorothy?

Dorothy's love for Roger is obvious. It was revealed through her jealousy of Angel in ELECTRIC CITY, ENEMY IS ANOTHER BIG, and HYDRA. She declared it in BECK COMES BACK and THE GREATEST VILLAIN. It was obvious from her actions in DAEMONSEED and other episodes. And, of course, when she returns from the dead to save him in THE SHOW MUST GO ON.

Roger's love for Dorothy is not supported by words, but by deeds. His willingness to spend a fortune on Pero in MISSING CAT, his acceptance of the second question in BECK COMES BACK as a "difficult question" but not a crazy one, the flower scene in HYDRA, his solicitous behavior in THE GREATEST VILLAIN (after he's over the shock of her declaration in front of Beck), his unwillingness to make out with Angel in STRIPES, his insane fury if he thinks anyone is mistreating her in a variety of episodes, his joke in THE SHOW MUST GO ON -- I don't see how anyone can be in any doubt.

It's just that Roger himself doesn't admit that he's romantically inclined towards her until HYDRA. But everyone ELSE knows. Even Alan Gabriel, who barely knows them, knows that Roger loves Dorothy, and uses it to taunt Angel in TWISTED MEMORIES.

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Originally posted by YZEtc quote: From ZeaLitY: Other than this instance, does the series distinctly reveal a love between Roger and Dorothy? (I've only seen the episodes up to now and 19 and onward) I believe it'd be nice if it were truly fleshed out, rather than being left to inference. You're speaking my language. I wouldn't want to spoil anything for you...unless that's what you want. There's always that chance that the raven-suited Negotiator will quit beating around the bush and address the issue once and for all. I mean: They wouldn't just leave us hanging on such an important point...would they?

When it comes to character romance like Roger and Dorothy's, yes, they would.

A classic example ACT, of two people being in love with each other and everyone knows about it and can see it clearly, yet the two people involved either don't want to admit it ar are too stupid to see it for what it truely is, love.

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Originally posted by GAT-X105 Is it just me, or do the cars at the bottom of the sea in Act 7 look more modern than the rest of the cars in the series? Significant? Mistake?

Well, the deeper you go underground in Paradigm the more modern looking things become. Perhaps that applies to deep underwater too.

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by ZeaLitY Other than this instance, does the series distinctly reveal a love between Roger and Dorothy? Dorothy's love for Roger is obvious. It was revealed through her jealousy of Angel in ELECTRIC CITY, ENEMY IS ANOTHER BIG, and HYDRA. She declared it in BECK COMES BACK and THE GREATEST VILLAIN. It was obvious from her actions in DAEMONSEED and other episodes. And, of course, when she returns from the dead to save him in THE SHOW MUST GO ON. Roger's love for Dorothy is not supported by words, but by deeds. His willingness to spend a fortune on Pero in MISSING CAT, his acceptance of the second question in BECK COMES BACK as a "difficult question" but not a crazy one, the flower scene in HYDRA, his solicitous behavior in THE GREATEST VILLAIN (after he's over the shock of her declaration in front of Beck), his unwillingness to make out with Angel in STRIPES, his insane fury if he thinks anyone is mistreating her in a variety of episodes, his joke in THE SHOW MUST GO ON -- I don't see how anyone can be in any doubt. It's just that Roger himself doesn't admit that he's romantically inclined towards her until HYDRA. But everyone ELSE knows. Even Alan Gabriel, who barely knows them, knows that Roger loves Dorothy, and uses it to taunt Angel in TWISTED MEMORIES.

Certainly, that's the reason why I tend to dismiss the idea that Roger sees Dorothy as a friend only, a "sister" if you will. Roger seems to have forsaken Angel and any other woman for Dorothy.

One thing I would like to ask, if Dorothy was only a "acquaintance" or a "friend", would he have entered Eugene Grant's lair so rashly? Would he engage Alex so fiercely? I mean, Roger had his chance to destroy Big Fau before, why didn't he?

I guess I am beating a dead horse with this subject.

Thoughts about the hugging scene....

Beck is a twisted genius. Presumably he saw Roger's recue of Dorothy in episode 2, he would be aware of Roger's love for Dorothy. Perhaps from there he guessed she might also feel the same? In any case he built that mind controlling tiara (hellcrown?) based on what he guessed.

My hunch is that the tiara just amplifies what is already there. If Dorothy had disliked Roger, she would have been sent into a killing rage, and Roger would have been finished. But Dorothy doesn't dislike Roger.

Instead her attraction to Roger, already present, is amplified beyond her control. Apparently her imagination or memory even includes a physical demonstration of that love. For his part, Roger wants that closeness as well, he doesn't pull away or resist in any way, right up until her embrace becomes painful. And then it is too late of course.
Beck must be very good at reading people and/or androids....

Roger cannot break Dorothy's superior strength, so he tries another tactic. He looks deep into her eyes. In fact it seems like he is offering himself, boring in deeper, deeper.....

Too deep! The shock of his sudden mental offering breaks Dorothy out of her trance. I can almost picture her thinking, No! Too fast! I'm not ready for this yet! Dorothy is not yet ready to share her inner self with this man she is attracted to. This realization is what helps her break Beck's programming. (It's interesting that Dorothy has always had this ability to transcend her programming throughout the series. For some reason she simply prefers not to, though.)

Much later, Norman examines the tiara device, and said it met up with a "superior system". Roger denies this and says Dorothy did it on her own. And Norman agrees. But it's impossible for Norman, the chief maintainer of Big O for years and years, to be wrong in such a technical assessment. Dorothy did eventually break the tiara trap using her will. But it was Roger who helped her see just what her will was. He was the "superior system".

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Originally posted by Zopwx2 I'm just saying most likley the writers were not 100% sure on exactly how Angel would do whatever it is she did, when they finished act 13.

Well, I think that's pretty much true on every show and every movie (every novel, etc, etc).

You're never quite sure exactly where the story and characters will lead you.

That doesn't mean you don't have a specific plan in mind from the start which you foreshadow as much as you can, simply that the end point you reach may not be exactly what you expected.

Anyone here familiar with Babylon 5 will know that the five-year arc was determined at the beginning of the show. While there were some major changes (especially cast changes, and a shift to a potentially four-year arc), the shape of the entire show still conformed perhaps 90% to the original intention.

That show, too, was heavy into foreshadowing, prophecy, etc.

That said, I think you've got a stronger argument if you want to argue that the writers sat down to do a rethink for the second season, given the gap between seasons one and two. The question then becomes, what did they decide to modify, and what remained as it was?

I don't see that much of a shift in Angel or the Angel-Roger relationship.

Narsham

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Originally posted by Penny Century Or, you know, maybe this is the same cartoon principle whereby Superman puts on a pair of glasses and suddenly no one recognizes him.

I suspect that's it.

The writers enjoy tweaking conventions of the genre whenever possible (The Greatest Villain being the obvious example).

The idea that pretty much everyone OUGHT to know Roger Smith operates Big O, but very few do, may just be a parody of the superhero identity effect.

Another factor to keep in mind is that Beck knows that you can operate a megadeus remotely, so he can't necessarily be certain that Roger is the operator of Big O, only that he's in contact with its operator.

Or perhaps there's just a huge subconscious block in place for the citizens of Paradigm City which keeps them from thinking, inferring, or deducing certain facts. I think that argument is sustainable, too.

Narsham