Discuss the Current Episode

No, there are inconsistancies to the two seasons.

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato GORDON: ...You have the power to contain or release these memories, including the memories from forty years ago. ANGEL: I don't know what happened forty years ago, and, frankly, I don't care. GORDON: I understand, and in that case, nothing will have happened forty years ago. (edit) What Gordon meant by his final statement is unclear. Does he mean that the events literally will have never happened at all, or just that Angel has the power of making the memories permanently unrecoverable? If there is no way to learn anything about the past, it might as well not have happened, for practical purposes.

I took that as an indication that Angel (in her other form) has the task/responsibility of remembering.

That if she doesn't preserve the memories, if she doesn't care, then she effectively erases history.

For Angel, memory and history are the same thing. If Angel is the world's memory, and she chooses to forget the world, then the world would cease to exist. I suspect those are the stakes at the end of the last episode... whether reality will continue or not.

Very Buddhist, but not particularly "Truman Show" IMO.

Narsham

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato But aren't memories unreliable in the real world as well? People misrememer even the most unforgettable events in their own lives. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. People lie, rationalize, romanticize, and eventually believe that the reworked story is true. They misunderstand and remember the misunderstanding more clearly than the actual event. They confuse one event for another.

Yes. Exactly how it was explained within the show, too.

Angel: How can a woman as unreliable as me be a memory?
Gordon: Memories by nature are unreliable things.

Memories can be altered simply by how a person wants to remember them.

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Zopwx2 Its said quite simply in act 25 I believe, that there were no memoriesof 40 years ago becuase there was nothing before 40 years ago. Whoever started the current incarnation of paradigm started right there. If you look at that sequence again, I think you'll find that this isn't what is said at all. I can't look at the sequence myself at the moment (the power's out and all I've got running is my laptop), but I believe the following is close: GORDON: ...You have the power to contain or release these memories, including the memories from forty years ago. ANGEL: I don't know what happened forty years ago, and, frankly, I don't care. GORDON: I understand, and in that case, nothing will have happened forty years ago. Something like that. The point is that, at the point in which the conversation took place, the events from before forty years ago are real, and Angel can release the memories of them. So I don't believe that your theory about there never having been events from before forty years ago holds any water. What Gordon meant by his final statement is unclear. Does he mean that the events literally will have never happened at all, or just that Angel has the power of making the memories permanently unrecoverable? If there is no way to learn anything about the past, it might as well not have happened, for practical purposes. quote: But where did they get those flashbacks/past memories? Possiblities 1) Innconsistensies due to season 1's writers being unclear on direction. Past memories are used throughout Season 2 as well, right up into Act 26. Guess again. quote: 2) memories from previous incarnations of paradigm. In other words, memories from before 40 years ago. quote: 3) those memories are fake, (well even more fake than the city), planted there by the director, either manualy or fed into the city through people like Big ear So, basically, you're suggesting that, because you've decided that the city is fake, all evidence to the contrary is also fake. This is logically consistent (since you've taken a position that, basically, everything is fake), but it still begs the question, "Why do you believe it's fake?" Maybe the things that make you think it's fake are fake, and the rest is real.

That conversation in the elevator is from act 26, act 25 was when they were in angels cabin set. They also reveal the people shot in act 13 realized there was nothing before 40 years ago becuase everything was set in motion at that particular moment in time.

What I mean by more fake is this.

Even though angel (or someone) created paradigm, the people have some sort of free will, once she starts a specific incarnation of pardigm she can't directly make people do anything, but she can feed them false information (memories) about the past. Ones that nobody ever chose to do on their own.

The only time the director ever changes anything directly is when she has to either erase or restart the city.

Another possiblilty is that in the special case of roger, he has flashbacks to many different erasures and restarts of paradigm becuase he was chosen to negotiate with the director, but says in the last episode he most likley erased his own memories.

With the Adult Swim schedule being all cattywampus because of the holidays, please accept this small reminder that "A Legacy of Amadeus" appears in The Usual Slot tonight.

I roger that.
I'm feelin' it.

Eep! Got 5 and 6 transposed. It's "Bring Back My Ghost" tonight.

Hey, at least we got the right credits tonight

(Or will those be the default ones through the whole re-airing?)

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Originally posted by Sharpshooter005 Hey, at least we got the right credits tonight

As the expression goes, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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Originally posted by Sharpshooter005 (Or will those be the default ones through the whole re-airing?)

Well, they were for the last run.

If I recall, I placed Bring Back My Ghost at the bottom of my list when I watched the 26 repeats a short while back.
Why?
Not a lousy episode, it's just not fantastic, either.
The thought of grown men seeing what amounts to a big projection in the sky crashing their cars into a flaming heap sounds so much like Scooby Doo! Where Are You?
Ahh, well.
At least I liked Scooby Doo - the original series from the early 70', that is.
No Scrappy Doo for me, please.

I'm also happy to say that I'm reviewing this episode on my new Season 1 Collector's Edition DVDs!
*proudly holds up DVD box*

Blaah.
Major Hillery seems like such a snooty snob that I'm glad he bit the big one.
I mean: Doesn't that guy know that you should turn back whenever you see a doll floating downstream?
It just can't be a good thing.

I wonder what kind of reputation Roger has with all of the big legal professionals around Paradigm.
Fraser didn't get very far into his expensive cigar at all before Roger gets up to make Norman throw the guy out - until the mention of his dear, old mom tugs at Roger's heart strings.

When you want to become proficient at eavesdropping on your employer/secret interest, you'll take a tip from Dorothy and keep a broom at arm's reach at all times.
Lends a bit of credibility if you are spotted in awkward positions while listening to that manly voice that can captivate your attention like no other.
Roger seems like a natural with giving Norman the "Talk To The Hand" gesture.
I wouldn't doubt it if he does that a lot.

Mrs. Melissa Fraser sure has a New York accent.
Somehow, she reminds me of a tough, old momma from The Mob.

Hey, Dastun should be happy that Big O appeared without doing any property damage, for a change.
Oops.
Spoke too soon; he just fired an anchor chain into a wall.
The Military Police could keep Osrail to supply freaky laser light shows at the next Rock concert Paradigm holds.

What's Bonnie to do now that his big friend that saved his life is being turned into soup cans?
Might as well take a seat and tell Roger what he needs to know so that he can wrap-up the episode.
Sounds like Roger was being a bit smart with Bonnie when he asked him if he knew what the significance of the date was.
Aww, c'mon, Rog.
The guy was just getting revenge on the guys that tried to waste his ass - that's all.

Everybody does it.

Even now we STILL don't really know what role osrail and bonnie regaining his memories played in the whole grand scheme of things......

Yeah, I agree.
Hell, they didn't even show Osrail for more than a second, and then only as he was on his way down-for-the-count after being eye-lasered by Roger and Big O.

One thing that Bonnie did say was that he wasn't sure if those memories he had about suddenly knowing how to operate Osrail were his own, or if they were implanted.
I think that's one of the few times the word "implanted" is used in the series in regard to memories, if I'm correct.

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Originally posted by YZEtc Yeah, I agree. Hell, they didn't even show Osrail for more than a second, and then only as he was on his way down-for-the-count after being eye-lasered by Roger and Big O. One thing that Bonnie did say was that he wasn't sure if those memories he had about suddenly knowing how to operate Osrail were his own, or if they were implanted. I think that's one of the few times the word "implanted" is used in the series in regard to memories, if I'm correct.

In that case I think that Osrail used "the 8 plugs" on Bonnie, both to keep him alive and to instruct him in the (remote controlled) opperation of itself.
Based on what we see the plugs do later in the series it seems that Bonnie was plugged into Osrail for a short time.

possibly.... but osrail wasn't a big, he was just one of those random in between megadeii like dagon.

quick pic of the ghost and real Osrail:





Dagon, another wierd mega that doesn't fall into a catagory:



(act 7)

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Originally posted by Zopwx2 possibly.... but osrail wasn't a big, he was just one of those random in between megadeii like dagon. quick pic of the ghost and real Osrail: Dagon, another wierd mega that doesn't fall into a catagory: (act 7)

Judgeing by their shape and design, I'd say that they were speciality units. Osrail to be as we saw it, useing the projectors to decoy the enemy and use said image as a false point of origin for its energy missles.
As for Dagon, I'd say that, like Fau, it was ment to be an underwater combat unit. Its weapon systems and overall shape lend themselves well to that theory.

Never noticed that Rick mentions the Hudson River.

Col. Gauss reminds of the Newcomers from Alien Nation.

Just a couple of random thoughts.

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Col. Gauss reminds of the Newcomers from Alien Nation.

I thought the same thing.

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From Wingnut: In that case I think that Osrail used "the 8 plugs" on Bonnie, both to keep him alive and to instruct him in the (remote controlled) opperation of itself.

Yeah, that sneaky 8-pack of co-axials.
They seem to pounce on you when you least expect it.

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Originally posted by Zopwx2 Even now we STILL don't really know what role osrail and bonnie regaining his memories played in the whole grand scheme of things......

I hate to bring up Jung again...

Actually, I'm lying, I did the reading and I want credit.

Jung talks about the "Shadow" and I think that describes Osrail very well indeed. (Jung talks about ghosts, too, but I'll skip that for the moment.)

Here's a brief definition:
"The inferior part of the personality; sum of all personal and collective psychic elements which, because of their incompatibility with the chosen conscious attitude, are denied expression in life and therefore coalesce into a relatively autonomous "splinter personality" with contrary tendencies in the unconscious. The shadow behaves compensatorily to consciousness; hence its effects can be positive as well as negative. In dreams, the shadow figure is always the same sex as the dreamer."

Given that Bonnie seems almost TOO good and virtuous... certainly too good to be out for bloodthirsty revenge as he seems to be... and that he seems very inoffensive in person, I really like the Osrail as Bonnie's Shadow interpretation. Acting for the cause of good/justice, but in a violent and arguably sociopathic way.

Push that as far as it goes and you end up with the megadeus-as-unconscious-mind theory. I'm not sure I like that as a conclusion, but to some extent it works very well indeed.

Narsham

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Originally posted by Narsham Push that as far as it goes and you end up with the megadeus-as-unconscious-mind theory. I'm not sure I like that as a conclusion, but to some extent it works very well indeed.

And if you throw in a little speculation on the theories of other dead German psychoanalysts, it makes for some interesting parallels between the Roger/Big O/Dorothy team and the ego, id, and superego. The total integration of all three elements is considered necessary for the complete and healthy being, and we all know the megadeus team got some kewl new powerz and information after Dorothy factored in.

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Originally posted by Penny Century And if you throw in a little speculation on the theories of other dead German psychoanalysts, it makes for some interesting parallels between the Roger/Big O/Dorothy team and the ego, id, and superego. The total integration of all three elements is considered necessary for the complete and healthy being, and we all know the megadeus team got some kewl new powerz and information after Dorothy factored in.

Dorothy does make the perfect superego, doesn't she?

Except maybe in The Greatest Villain.

For those not familiar with the terms:
Ego=sense of self, conscious mind
Id=giant robot, unconscious mind, primal desires kept in check by the superego
Superego=conscience, part of yourself that calls you a louse

OK, perhaps I'm not being entirely accurate.

Narsham