Discuss the Current Episode

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Originally posted by Dork edit: YES! YES! 1000st post! 1000th post! (and one with substance to boot!) Can I get a Hell Yeah!? [/SIZE]

HELL YEAH!

Congrats.

Did you read the radio play yet? ACT doesn't like it, but it was written by the head writer when it looked like there was not going to be a second season.

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Accordint toChiaki J. Konaka This scenario was written for the audio drama in 2000. After the on-air of the first season, this CD had been released in Japan. I planned this audio drama as the special issue, so I wrote this such as the theatrical play. But after that, when I started to write the second season, I thought that this audio drama is the "Missing Link" between the first and second season.

One thing that becomes clear is that Dorothy is the one who thinks she can't feel, but Roger knows she does. It's also when Dastun begins thinking of her as a person and not an android, which he acknowledges in Act 15.

It makes a lot of the things you see in Season 2 fall into place, including Dorothy's "I am what I am" speech. While I see it as possible evidence that she does remember things happening before, I also see it as her being sick to death of struggling with something that is alien and abnormal to her--namely, her feelings.

That she wakes and overcomes her programming (or lack of it) says that she decided to accept that part of herself.

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Originally posted by Dork Come on, ACT you know me better than that, I would never question Dorothy's humanity. What I meant is that there is a clear difference between the sort of questions Data and a lot of androids would ask (questions about humanity and emotion that imply a complete ignorance of how emotion and the brain work, for example 'Why did that person laugh at that time?', etc.) and the questions Dorothy asks Roger. Dorothy's questions relate to her personally 'Mr. Wise fell in love out of loniless, right?', 'Why does Oliver love you so much?'. Her questions tend to take emotion into consideration. Data acted like he didn't understand emotion at all and thus didn't understand why humans did the things they did. Dorothy on the other hand seems to understand emotion better than anyone else on the show. We never hear Dorothy ask why Roger acts the way he does, Dorothy's even able picks up on Roger's denial of his feelings for her.

I agree on all points. In any event, the literary gimmick of applying the label "emotionless" to characters who are in fact quite passionate, but also repressed, is now so lame and threadbare that it ought to be retired. It was a good gimmick with Sherlock Holmes, and it limped along okay with Spock, but it was getting awfully tired by the time Data came along. It's not worth using, these days. But people have come to expect it, and you can see from some other people's posts that they see it even when it isn't there.

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quote: She never denies her human side, nor does she question it. I don't think she does this even once, or even hints at it. The closest she ever comes is in asking, in Act 1, "What are you doing, praying?" and in DAEMONSEED, when she asks about Heaven's Day. Interestingly, both show a lack of knowledge of religious observance -- not a generalized ignorance at all. You and I have different theories on what's going on in Dorothy's head when says 'I don't understand the emotions you people have' in act 4, and 'I am grateful to Dr. Wayneright for designing me so I wouldn't have emotions like that' in act 15. I think she doesn't yet understand herself, you think she's being cagey, and no matter what I don't think either one of us is going to get the other to agree with us on this point.

We agree on the fundamental points: she's basically human in outlook, and has been messed up emotionally by Wayneright. Exactly where she's messed up and where she isn't is hard to nail down because she doesn't talk much.

I haven't used one of my favorite assertions in a long time: "Dorothy has a human side and an android side, and the two are poorly integrated." When her two natures conflict, she tends to make bad decisions, as when she let herself get kidnapped in Act 23.

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quote: I think we can dismiss the idea that Dorothy is more in tune with her android side than her human side. The android side scares the daylights out of her, but she bilthely falls in love with Roger and Pero and never seems to question this at all. Yes, she certainly is more in tune with her human side, this goes without saying. But Dorothy allowed herself to be taken by the machines in act 23 because she was feeling guilty about lying to Norman,* something androids aren't 'suppose' to be capable of. So I sense a little internal conflict with Dorothy here. She still needs to figure out exactly where her android side fits in and with any luck she'll eventually come to the same conclusion Roger did: It really doesn't matter either way.

I'm not convinced that what happened with the scorpion bots is anything more than the kind of lapse she's subject to when her android side is acting uppity. You'll notice that she didn't run from the Leviathan, either. If Big O hadn't arrived, I suppose she would have "allowed herself to be taken" just as she did in Act 23. So I'm not convinced that her actions in Act 23 show any less resistance than in Act 17. Nor am I convinced that her "Popeye speech" tells us anything except that her android side is having a strong effect on her at the moment.

Congratulations on your thousandth post! Woo-hoo!

I don't really see how she can have an android and human side at the same time. I mean, she's 100% android.

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Originally posted by Seraphim I don't really see how she can have an android and human side at the same time. I mean, she's 100% android.

Easy:

1. Figure out how the human brain works.

2. Make a mechanical brain that works the same way.

3. Copy the contents of a human brain to a mechanical brain.

4. Slap a bunch of random android junk (like Megadeus support functions) on top of the human personality.

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Seraphim I don't really see how she can have an android and human side at the same time. I mean, she's 100% android. Easy: 1. Figure out how the human brain works. 2. Make a mechanical brain that works the same way. 3. Copy the contents of a human brain to a mechanical brain. 4. Slap a bunch of random android junk (like Megadeus support functions) on top of the human personality.

Or maybe they slapped a bunch of human junk on top of a mechanical megadeus accessory.

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Originally posted by Zopwx2 quote: Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Seraphim I don't really see how she can have an android and human side at the same time. I mean, she's 100% android. Easy: 1. Figure out how the human brain works. 2. Make a mechanical brain that works the same way. 3. Copy the contents of a human brain to a mechanical brain. 4. Slap a bunch of random android junk (like Megadeus support functions) on top of the human personality. Or maybe they slapped a bunch of human junk on top of a mechanical megadeus accessory.

The test is to see which mode of thinking predominates. Most of the time, Dorothy is a woman, not a computer.

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Zopwx2 quote: Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Seraphim I don't really see how she can have an android and human side at the same time. I mean, she's 100% android. Easy: 1. Figure out how the human brain works. 2. Make a mechanical brain that works the same way. 3. Copy the contents of a human brain to a mechanical brain. 4. Slap a bunch of random android junk (like Megadeus support functions) on top of the human personality. Or maybe they slapped a bunch of human junk on top of a mechanical megadeus accessory. The test is to see which mode of thinking predominates. Most of the time, Dorothy is a woman, not a computer.

Its more like she tries to be human, and periodically regresses back into "robot" mode when in the presence of certain megadeii that force her to drop her guard.

Wouldn't you think that robot designers would first design a more basic megadeus interacting robot BEFORE they managed to replicate the human mind?

Aside from when she's with her father I don't think Dorothy ever 'tries' to be human. In the first few episodes she periodically denies that she's anything more than a robot but as her relationships develop and she experiences more things (the whole thing with Pero being a major one) she just naturally discovers her humanity. It was the year with Wayneright and his slightly demented demands her that screwed her up major impairing her sense of individuality.

Our main characters on the show -for simplicity's sake Roger, Angel, and Dorothy- start out as actors, their senses of personal identity are tied up in their jobs and what they do, and at seperate points during the show they are respectively shoved off the stage and must discover who they really are and what's really important to them. Dorothy's the first to be shoved off the stage, in act 2 to be exact. When Beck's henchmen kills her father Dorothy can't play her role anymore. Dorothy also takes the longest of the three main characters to figure herself out. Next is Roger, he leaves the stage in act 14 but by the end of the season he still hasn't figured himself completely out (hey, gotta leave something for him to do in season three). Last is Angel. When she discovers that Roger's in love with Dorothy and when she later betrays the union it destroys her two main purposes in the show and she spends the next few episodes wandering about the underground until she discovers/becomes Big Venus.

This is a metaphor heavy show. I'd love to know how much of this the writers had planned out ahead of time and what they just came up with along the way. The stage metaphor is definitely in the first two episodes but it doesn't get refined until S2 (or act 13 at the earliest). In act two you have Roger standing on the stage calling out Big O's name and also Dorothy walking off the stage ( ::pokes:: get it? get it? She leaves the stage. She leaves the stage. lol ^_^ ). We first see the umbrella in act 8 and judging from how they used the umbrella in that act (having it blow out of Dorothy's hand when she realizes what Pero is) they probably had that metaphor all figured out by then.

The radio drama 'Walking Together on the Yellow Brick Road' is an interesting mid-point between seasons. The characterizations are off (written by Chiaki J. Konaka or not) but it lets you see in what direction he was thinking of taking the relationships. But even still there is a drastic difference between how Dorothy (and her relationships) were handled in season one and how they were handled in season two. Not only did Dorothy play a bigger role in season two but we also see much more of her. I've been wondering for awhile if the writers were pressured to do this by Cartoon Network. I don't know for sure about Japan but fans in the U.S. love Dorothy, not everyone does of course, but she seems to be the favorite. I read somewhere (the Dorothy Dorothy website?) that Konaka wanted the Dorothy/Roger relationship to be unrequited, if true this idea was completely abandoned in season two.

So much time passed between the two seasons that the writers had to have rethought how they'd like to go about certain little or big details of the story. Which changes were the writers ideas and which (if any) were influenced by Cartoon Network. I wish that the Animeplay article had at least touched on this. Would've been interesting.


muchlove
-dork

Dork,

What a wonderful post!

Yes, it's all very confusing when trying to figure out what's in an artist's mind when he's partly finished with a work. And many artists -- including writers, oddly enough -- are strangely incoherent when talking about their own work.

I agree that Angel and Roger were playing roles rather than being themselves early in the show. I'm not sure about Dorothy. We see her playing a role for Wayneright, and she is very different for everyone else. Is this role #2, or is it the real Dorothy?

Roger projects this facade of being a bachelor playboy louse, but of course he has real work to do and he does it. He's well-grounded in reality. His identity is wrapped up in Big O, not in being the suave seducer and the conspicuous consumer. Angel's in much worse shape, since her identity is heavily invested in the femme fatale role and her loyalty to the Union, netiher of which are a good fit for who she is.

I think Dorothy and Roger each see the other as eye of the hurricane; the island of stability when everything else goes crazy. Neither is perfect or unconflicted, but they're steady when it counts.

...Dear diary:
Today started off just like any other day since I took up residence within the Smith Bank: Boring as **it.
Oh, sure, I can have some fun if I'm lucky enough to be able to rouse Roger's lazy ass out of bed in time so he can be on the road before noon, but after that initial burst of mischievous excitement, things can get rather dull.

No offense intended toward Norman, of course, since he and I get on so well and the old fellow is the epitome of a well-mannered gentleman.
But, sometimes I feel like doing something other than cleaning house, or flipping a dozen hourglasses over just to hear the shhhhhhhhh... of the falling sand.

Yes, I could use a bit of excitement - although sneaking-up on Roger while he meditates out on the patio is a challenge I truly enjoy.
Yeah, I did it, again, and he didn't even know I was there until I spoke-up.
I am so slick.

Perhaps, then, that is why I felt I should keep an eye on him as he headed off down to the basement with that look in his eye as if he were on an important, soul-searching mission.

Well, that, and because I'm naturally curious about him.

I'll bet that he's glad I did tag along behind, because he ended up traveling a fair way underground before falling off a ladder and screaming bloody murder.
Once I heard that, I was there in a flash and rested his unconscious head on my lap, observing him quietly breathing.
I'd not experienced something so serenely satisfying in quite a while, though it ended all too soon when Roger began to moan and groan as he came-to.

And then!, OMG!, he called me, "Ma"!
Aww.
Though he did get a bit snippy when I asked about it.

Shortly afterwards while walking along a corridor leading to who-knows-where, I felt the strangest sensation, as if I were being beckoned.
We came upon some manner of a weird model of a city...and...I really don't know what happened next.
I remember seeing Roger standing in front of a half-buried monstrosity that looked like Big O without his black armor.
He was talking to this strange man wrapped in bandages who was standing up on the shoulder of this Megadeus.
The next thing I knew, I'm screaming as this thing comes crashing down in front of us in flames, and that man in bandages starts howling like no tomorrow as those flames rip him a good one.

I only had three words for that weird guy:
Stop.
Drop.
And Roll.

I'd rather not comment on the events that followed, as I'd rather try to forget them.
Hummph. There's no way that thing and I are compatable.
*shivers*

So, dear diary, although I helped Roger out of a tough spot, he returned the favor as he and Big O got us back home, snug as two bugs in a rug.
And even though Roger thinks he was able to sneak-up on me that last time, I really knew he was there the whole time.

Really.

Besides, I'd like to see him pull that gymnastic manouver I did as I went inside.

Typos, typos!

Wow, YZEtc, you really do put together a nice diary entry. You're giving the diary at Dorothy, Dorothy a run for its money.

But, Dorothy saying "OMG?" I don't think so.

Pygmalion

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Originally posted by Pygmalion Wow, YZEtc, you really do put together a nice diary entry. You're giving the diary at Dorothy, Dorothy a run for its money. But, Dorothy saying "OMG?" I don't think so. Pygmalion

Well, I don't know, she might. Espically if the Act 17 entry on that site holds any water considering it is mimicking Dorothy's Megadeus language, as it has become to be known as, by useing l33t speak.

Thank you.

Hearing Dorothy say that might be doubtful, but I'm guessing she could write it in a book meant for her pretty eyes only - especially if she were feeling all giddy inside .

Yeah, I've read that diary, and I like it.
Hope I don't get sued.

^_^ That was cute, YZEtc.
-----------------------------

Dang. Bad news it looks like Bg O is indeed leaving the Adult Swim line up ::sniff::

It's really bizaare though. They just put it back on. What's the logic of putting a 26 episode show on air for 5 weeks? I don't get it.

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Originally posted by Dork Aside from when she's with her father I don't think Dorothy ever 'tries' to be human. In the first few episodes she periodically denies that she's anything more than a robot but as her relationships develop and she experiences more things (the whole thing with Pero being a major one) she just naturally discovers her humanity. It was the year with Wayneright and his slightly demented demands her that screwed her up major impairing her sense of individuality. Our main characters on the show -for simplicity's sake Roger, Angel, and Dorothy- start out as actors, their senses of personal identity are tied up in their jobs and what they do, and at seperate points during the show they are respectively shoved off the stage and must discover who they really are and what's really important to them. Dorothy's the first to be shoved off the stage, in act 2 to be exact. When Beck's henchmen kills her father Dorothy can't play her role anymore. Dorothy also takes the longest of the three main characters to figure herself out. Next is Roger, he leaves the stage in act 14 but by the end of the season he still hasn't figured himself completely out (hey, gotta leave something for him to do in season three). Last is Angel. When she discovers that Roger's in love with Dorothy and when she later betrays the union it destroys her two main purposes in the show and she spends the next few episodes wandering about the underground until she discovers/becomes Big Venus. This is a metaphor heavy show. I'd love to know how much of this the writers had planned out ahead of time and what they just came up with along the way. The stage metaphor is definitely in the first two episodes but it doesn't get refined until S2 (or act 13 at the earliest). In act two you have Roger standing on the stage calling out Big O's name and also Dorothy walking off the stage ( ::pokes:: get it? get it? She leaves the stage. She leaves the stage. lol ^_^ ). We first see the umbrella in act 8 and judging from how they used the umbrella in that act (having it blow out of Dorothy's hand when she realizes what Pero is) they probably had that metaphor all figured out by then. The radio drama 'Walking Together on the Yellow Brick Road' is an interesting mid-point between seasons. The characterizations are off (written by Chiaki J. Konaka or not) but it lets you see in what direction he was thinking of taking the relationships. But even still there is a drastic difference between how Dorothy (and her relationships) were handled in season one and how they were handled in season two. Not only did Dorothy play a bigger role in season two but we also see much more of her. I've been wondering for awhile if the writers were pressured to do this by Cartoon Network. I don't know for sure about Japan but fans in the U.S. love Dorothy, not everyone does of course, but she seems to be the favorite. I read somewhere (the Dorothy Dorothy website?) that Konaka wanted the Dorothy/Roger relationship to be unrequited, if true this idea was completely abandoned in season two. So much time passed between the two seasons that the writers had to have rethought how they'd like to go about certain little or big details of the story. Which changes were the writers ideas and which (if any) were influenced by Cartoon Network. I wish that the Animeplay article had at least touched on this. Would've been interesting. muchlove -dork

This is one of the most thorough analysis of Big O I have seen in a while. Keep on living up to your name, R. Dork Wayneright.

That was. . . bizarre.

What was Cartoon Network's crazy ass logo doing on tonight's episode? It was probably a mistake but who makes a mistake like that?

freaky deaky indeed. I'll see if I can get a screencap later.


muchlove
-dork

• Attachment: RCA Disc-0.gif

Yeah after like ten years they decided to f*** up their logo.....

http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thre...eadid=7406&sid=

CN hasn't changed their logo since I was a kid. If they had to change it, they could have at least changed it to something not so annoying.

But is anybody else freaked out that they used it on Big O during Adult Swim?

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Originally posted by Dork That was. . . bizaare. What was Cartoon Network's crazy ass logo doing on tonight's episode? It was probably a mistake but who makes a mistake like that? freaky deaky indeed. I'll see if I can get a screencap later. muchlove -dork

Are we sure that their new logo? Or, has Roger sold out and became Cartoon Network's spokes person. Poor Roger, CN patch on his jackets. That's a bummer.

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Originally posted by Tony quote: Originally posted by Dork That was. . . bizaare. What was Cartoon Network's crazy ass logo doing on tonight's episode? It was probably a mistake but who makes a mistake like that? freaky deaky indeed. I'll see if I can get a screencap later. muchlove -dork Are we sure that their new logo? Or, has Roger sold out and became Cartoon Network's spokes person. Poor Roger, CN patch on his jackets. That's a bummer.

No, I really can't see Roger as a CN lapdog.

Pygmalion