Discuss the Current Episode

I really dig this episode because this is one of those Acts where Roger seems to really show his big headedness. First of all, this was the last episode that he insults her because he genuinely believed she didn't have feelings (Yes, he does insult her again during "Missing Cat", but quickly apologizes. This is something he didn't do during this episode). He seemed to purposely attack Dorothy as to try to convince himself that she was an android, and not a woman who can brighten up his blacken life. It seems that he mocked her so that he would fall for a lifeless android whose mastery for mimicry was advance enough to fool most people into believing she was capable of true feelings. I believe this prejudice was eternally dashed when Dorothy said she "felt" like playing the blues. Now, he has to face the fact that he had a woman (one he has an inalienable liking for, but fears that it may become more) in his home.

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Originally posted by Dork Not electric fish, electrocuted fish. It's fried. Yum ^_^

*smacks head*

Of course.

*bites*

Yum indeed...

Often in life, compromises must be made with those around us – for our own sake as well as theirs.
Whether it be weathering the reoccurring storm that is known as The In-laws, putting on a cheerful face at your workplace in spite of being surrounded by buffoons, or telling a little, itty-bitty white lie to the cop that just pulled you over when he asks if you know how fast you were going, there come times when it just isn’t the best thing to do to say what's really on your mind.

The inhabitants of Paradigm City are not exempt from this harsh fact of life - memory-sapping Event or not – and all you have to do to prove it for yourself is merely read a little bit into the words and actions of our Ravenous Negotiator, Sharp-tongued, lovely android, and that curvaceous blonde bombshell who carries a rather high center of gravity.

What this means, then, is that it is time to once again take an eye-opening look into the realm of those unuttered truths as we dare to explore these unsaid thoughts permeating the memory-challenged minds of our heroes by comparing what they actually say against what they most obviously would really like to say.
Yes.
That is:
What You’d Say vs. What You’d Like To Say.


At the mile-long breakfast table:

What You’d Say:

Roger: (To Dorothy, pointing fork at her)
“No matter how human your piano playing sounds, you’re just simply imitating us – that’s why no matter what you play, it has no effect on anyone and becomes pointless.”

Dorothy:
“No one is ever happy to hear an alarm bell.”

What You’d Like to Say:

Roger:
“No matter how human your piano playing sounds, you’re just simply imitating us – that’s why no matter what you play, it has no effect on anyone and becomes pointless.”

Dorothy:
“If you don’t shut up and quit pointing that fork at me, I’m going to leap across this table in a most unhuman manner and stick it somewhere that will require surgery to prevent you from setting-off airport metal detectors for the rest of your life.”
*smiles*
“Now, eat your bread – it’s getting cold.”

In the underground tunnel ‘tween Sven’s cabin and the power turbines:

What You’d Say:

Roger: (seeing Angel in her pink Super Sleuth Suit)
“I’ve seen those curves, before.”

What You’d Like To Say:

Roger:
”Boah-waaaaaaah!
Eer…aren’t you afraid of catching a cold…up…here ?”
*motions by his chest*

At The Final Piano Scene:

What You’d Say:

Roger: (to Dorothy, who plays piano whilst feeling the groove and moving to the music)
“How many times do I have to tell you that it’s pointless to just imitate us?!”

Dorothy:
*says nothing; stops moving; continues playing; stares Roger down*

What You’d Like To Say:

Roger:
“How many times do I have to tell you that it’s pointless to just imitate us?!”

Dorothy:
*holds up fork*
“Remember this, Roger?”

Roger:
*eyes get big*
”Gulp!”

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Originally posted by YZEtc Dorothy: *holds up fork* “Remember this, Roger?” Roger: *eyes get big* ”Gulp!”

I think Dorothy has invented the better Louse-trap.

Pygmalion

I like this episode, but I noticed something. I don't have cabel, so I watch the episodes on DVD. I had the subtitles on, and in the sceen with the "I'm no athiest" speech, in the dubbed version he says, "But they expect me to belive there's a god here who gives off electricity when he's angry?" In the subbed version, he says, "they expect me to belive there's a god that gets angry when electrictiy is used?" I actually thought the subbed made more sense. Sometimes I wonder why things like that change between sub and dub. Just random thoughts from the realm of Ozy, I guess.

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Originally posted by Ozymandius Jones I like this episode, but I noticed something. I don't have cabel, so I watch the episodes on DVD. I had the subtitles on, and in the sceen with the "I'm no athiest" speech, in the subbed version he says, "But they expect me to belive there's a god here who gives off electricity when he's angry?" In the subbed version, he says, "they expect me to belive there's a god that gets angry when electrictiy is used?" I actually though the subbed made more sense. Sometimes I wonder why things like that change between sub and dub. Just random thoughts from the realm of Ozy, I guess.

With the english audio track? That is a bit odd. I guess the ones who did the subbing figured that the viewers needed all the help they could get in understanding those kind of nuances of the show.

This is one of my favorite episodes. It introduces Schwarzwald, and the often-overlooked theme that Schwarzwald can do almost nothing without Alex Rosewater's knowledge. And we see Angel worming her way ever higher in the Paradigm Group.

But it's Dorothy that makes this episode special. Dorothy's relationship with Roger at this state is interesting. I'm convinced that she's in love with him, but she is not ready to admit this. She's still guarded around him. She goes so far as to claim that she doesn't understand human emotions, which I doubt is really true.

This is the second episode in which we've seen a Megadeus reach out and control her. In this case, there isn't any doubt that the Megadeus used her to activate herself.

Old Timothy Wayneright was very remiss in Dorothy's education. She is surprised by these functions of hers, horrified by the Megadeuse's use of her, terrified of the Megadeus itself. I believe he kept her ignorant of these functions intentionally, focusing instead on making her play the part of his dead daughter, rather than allowing her to be herself. Idiot.

Roger is more pleased than otherwise to learn that Dorothy can be frightened. He likes the idea of her being more human than he imagined.

Note that, while Dorothy activated a dangerous Megadeus, he never blamed her or wondered about her motives. He assumed she was innocent. Trust. I like that in a hero.

Schwarzwald claims to be searching for the truth, though as usual he seems perfectly willing to settle for power instead. You gotta wonder about a truth-seeker who burns his prior work to prevent other people from learning anything from it.

And how is Alex Rosewater keeping tabs on everything? He knew that the battle was happening before it was over? He had only a telescope to watch it with -- not much use during an underground fight -- but it was sure pointed in the right direction.

Alex is trying to buy Schwarzwald off, but to what purpose? The reasons he gives to Roger must be lies.

Some of Dorothy's best sarcastic lines are in this episode, too.

EDIT: Woo-hoo! This is reply 666 in this thread!

did any notice her turned the key on teh lift to U and it went down (the whole inverted thing again)



ANy shwarz speech was close to the one in 17

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato Roger is more pleased than otherwise to learn that Dorothy can be frightened. He likes the idea of her being more human than he imagined. Note that, while Dorothy activated a dangerous Megadeus, he never blamed her or wondered about her motives. He assumed she was innocent. Trust. I like that in a hero. Some of Dorothy's best sarcastic lines are in this episode, too.

I forgot how nice Roger looks swinging around from his wrist grapnel... *sighs happily*

I think that he likes the idea that she might be imperfect. You see as the show unfolds that being protective is a very big part of his character, and I think he's glad to realize that in some ways, he can protect her, too.

That's not to say he wants her to be a clinging vine; quite the contrary. As the episodes go on, you see him really begin to enjoy her strengths. When she is kidnapped by the bots, he reminds her of how strong she is and encourages her to break free.

As you said, ACT, it humanizes her. She isn't a cold, perfect machine, she is a woman, with strengths and weaknesses just like any other person. And that is when Roger begins to realize, I believe, that he can love her.

Act 4 is one of my favorites.

Funny how we still don't have any real hard knowledge about much in that episode.

What was the underground chamber for?, Who built it? Who bulid the archetype, and why? What did schwarzwald really find? What is exactly is the connection between androids and megadeii?

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Originally posted by Zopwx2 Act 4 is one of my favorites. Funny how we still don't have any real hard knowledge about much in that episode. What was the underground chamber for?, Who built it? Who bulid the archetype, and why? What did schwarzwald really find? What is exactly is the connection between androids and megadeii?

I just realized, Schwarzwald looked to far into the black abyss (of the past in this case) and the black abyss stared back at him; burning him (when he fooled around with the archtype) and driving him insane.

I highly doubt that it was schwarzwald who set fire to his apartment. Unless he is fast enough to pour in the gas, light the fire, then run down the buildings stairs accross the street, up that buildings stairs to the roof top, then get to ledge. All of that would have to take place in the span of 39 seconds, at least according to my tape. As for schwarzwald's power tendicys he says "but a mere newspaper reporter such as myself could never get close to the truth..." So it's quite possible that he is seeking power to help him uncover the truth, or it could be the other way around. However if I were seeking a truth that would lead to such power as a megaduce I certainly wouldn't attempt to tell other people of it's existance, such as schwarzwald does in later acts, by releaseing pamplets.

And how is Alex Rosewater keeping tabs on everything? He knew that the battle was happening before it was over? He had only a telescope to watch it with -- not much use during an underground fight -- but it was sure pointed in the right direction.

Alex Rosewater isn't nearly as powerful as I think you give him credit for. There is no way he was able to know of the fight untill it was over, when the blasts from Big O's chest missles caused a building to fall over off of its foundation. The fact that Rosewater had his telescope pointed that direction is easly explained by the fact he noticed that a huge building was in the process of falling over and he wanted to watch. That fits well with his "as long as it's not me" personality (when he killed all those people by using Big Fau to bomb the city), as for his phone call, it was more than likely either to the military police or possably to the paradigm science group. If you remember in a later act rodger comes back and we learn that someone had cleared out most of the models and had taken whatever was left of the Archtype.

Alex is trying to buy Schwarzwald off, but to what purpose? The reasons he gives to Roger must be lies.

I don't believe there is some grand master plan behind buying Schwarzwald off other than to attempt to keep Alex in the seat of power. If Schwarzwald was able to find the truth, or the power he was also seeking, or worse yet memories, then Alex would be in great danger of losing his seat of power in paradigm. That would also throw a wrench in Alex's plans to re-construct Big Fau, but I'm not quite sure if that had started this early, it's quite possable that he was seeking parts to build a megaduce and he started the Archtype salvage operation as early as act 4.

Like so many people have said, this is one of my favorite episodes. I like villians with long, drawn out monologes, so of course I find Schwartzwald interesting. Of course, the cone-head look is a bit weird, but eh. Who cares?

I find it interesting to note that Roger knew that "Schwartzwald" meant "Black Forest" and that Dastun knew Seebach was German, but that in "Winter Night's Phantom, nobody knew that Sybil was speaking French. Why did some languages and nationalities survive and others not?

The Archetype is freaky. It's the one mech in the whole show that actually disturbs me. And is it the cause of the "fear waves"? They didn't really explain what causes the terror. Maybe it's a defense the Archetype had? Personally, I like the way Roger defends Dorothy in this episode. He's like a Knight in a black suit. And also, this seems like the first time we get an idea that Big O communicates with Roger, and thinks on it's own, or Roger wouldn't need to tell him that he shouldn't hold back.

Another random thought: Roger's "Mama" looks an awful lot like some 1950s stereotype mom. You'd almost expect her name to be June.

First off I'm begining too think that the Bigs arn't so much gods as their Dominuses are... For instance later on Rosewater exclaims "this city as a new god" kind of announcing that he was a dominuse, also (Sorry I can't get his name right) Swartzwald calls Roger a fake god, but I don't think that he knew about Roger being a Dominuse. God dang bad spelling....

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Originally posted by Agamemnon First off I'm begining too think that the Bigs arn't so much gods as their Dominuses are... For instance later on Rosewater exclaims "this city as a new god" kind of announcing that he was a dominuse, also (Sorry I can't get his name right) Swartzwald calls Roger a fake god, but I don't think that he knew about Roger being a Dominuse. God dang bad spelling....

They are the Domini of Megadeii. So they are the masters...

But then again Rosewater was wrong about several key things.

Like that he was the true son of Gordon who was the creator, and that fau was the megadues with the power to rewrite the world.

What really made me fall in love with this show, and Dorothy in particular, was a line she had in this episode: "I don't understand the emotions you people have."

Filmed science fiction has this horrid habit of portraying un-altered, un-augmented humanity as the ultimate form of senient life in the galaxy. Most recently; Minority Report (the movie), the remake of Planet of the Apes, Scifi's Battlerstar Galactica, and sadly enough even JMS' masterpiece: Babylon 5.

You always have a non-human character in these pieces who like nothing better than to extole praises on humanity's ingenuity, ability to feel affection, forgiveness, creativity, ability to work together, etc. When the fact of the matter is that most people do not possess these positive traits. You hear stories all the times of mothers and fathers abandoning their families, of children killing parents, lovers cheating on each other for sex. Most people, at least in the U.S., do not like to think, they are perfectly happy to sit on their asses at home watching the latest bit of FOX reality show non-sense. Our society values math and science above art and language skills, creative jobs are not seen to be 'real jobs', when it reality artistic jobs are more difficult to get and require more effort to keep.

In science fiction movies I always hear aliens saying that humans built the pyramids, and painted the sistine chapel, carved David and wrote the Illiad. *Humans* did no such thing. Individuals did those things. People who strove to do more than the masses, to be seen above the crowd.

So as bad as humanity is it annoys the blue blazes out of me when I hear a perfectly fine and respectible science fiction character going off about how great humans are. Data, and other supposedly emotionalless robots have always been particularly irksome. Esspecially when they start getting curious abouut humanity and emotions. Curiousity could be defined as the desire to know something. Desire is an emotion. You wanna explain to me, Mr. Roddenbary how an emotionalless android is suppose to be curious? And don't even get me started on Data's need to 'express himself'. EXPRESS WHAT?!

So when I figured out Dorothy wasn't just a cute animated Data I was estatic. But Nothing could have prepared me for the sheer joy I felt when I found out why Dorothy isn't curious about humans. She practically is human. She's creative, and sympathetic, and loving, and emotional without having to *be* human. If any other group of people had written the Big O the 2nd season would have ended with Roger crushed by the realization that Dorothy's just a robot and so she doesn't matter. Of course the point (or at least one of many) of Big O is that it takes more than flesh and blood to be human.

One other thing I noticed about Dorothy is that she's sorta like the hybrids of Star Trek. Dorothy's more like Be'Lanna Torres (human and half Klingon- a very violent and passionate race concerned with honor above else). Be'Lanna was trapped between two worlds, moreso than Spock, she wanted desperately to be human but couldn't escape her passionate Klingon side. And Dorothy's sorta like that, a hybrid. She's not completely human, but she's also not completely your typical paradigm robot. I think the next season of this show is going to deal more with Dorothy trying to retify to two parts of herself. In act 17 Dorothy seems to be trying to contain her android side, but in act 23 she's feeling guilty about forsaking her android side and gives herself over to the machines which she believes at the time is her destiny.

The other androids like Dorothy don't seem to have the problems she has with retifying their two sides. Her up-bringing is most likely to blame for this. Dorothy has to figure out where the two sides of herself fit.

I love this show. It's just good science fiction.

I need to watch the scene where Dorothy says she doesn't understand the emotions "you people have." Dorothy tends to get snippy and evasive when asked about her feelings, and although she relaxes and is genuinely informative later in that same speech of hers, I'm not sure that particular line is more than a warning shot.

The way I look at Dorothy's emotions is this: I ask myself questions and try to see how many illuminating examples I can find from across the series. For example, when does Dorothy become irrational on us? That is, when does she deny reality? Twice that I can think of: In UNDERGROUND TERROR, when she denies the link between herself and the Archetype, and in MISSING CAT, when she generally denies anything that would separate her from Pero.

And there's the speech as she was being taken by the scorpion bots, when she talks about things in her mind that frighten her.

She never denies her human side, nor does she question it. I don't think she does this even once, or even hints at it. The closest she ever comes is in asking, in Act 1, "What are you doing, praying?" and in DAEMONSEED, when she asks about Heaven's Day. Interestingly, both show a lack of knowledge of religious observance -- not a generalized ignorance at all.

What can we conclude from this? I think we can dismiss the idea that Dorothy is more in tune with her android side than her human side. The android side scares the daylights out of her, but she bilthely falls in love with Roger and Pero and never seems to question this at all. If this were a bad SF story, she'd ask someone, "Why do I want to strangle Roger Smith when he looks at that woman the way he does?" But she doesn't ask because she already knows.

As I said before, I believe that Dorothy is an imitator. Her 'humanity' comes from her imitation of humans, trying to fit in. Remember Dorothy isn't very old and hasn't had along time to grasp all of humanity. Also remember that Dorothy was designed to replace Waynewrights dead daughter, he even Identifies her as his granddaughter. Prehaps My views of Dorothy are just shallow...

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Originally posted by Agamemnon As I said before, I believe that Dorothy is an imitator. Her 'humanity' comes from her imitation of humans, trying to fit in. Remember Dorothy isn't very old and hasn't had along time to grasp all of humanity. Also remember that Dorothy was designed to replace Waynewrights dead daughter, he even Identifies her as his granddaughter. Prehaps My views of Dorothy are just shallow...

If she is an imitator, you would expect her to behave more and more like eveyrone else and less and less individually as the show progresses. Also, you'd expect her to pick up mannerisms from those around her.

Does she, do you think?

Come on, ACT you know me better than that, I would never question Dorothy's humanity.

What I meant is that there is a clear difference between the sort of questions Data and a lot of androids would ask (questions about humanity and emotion that imply a complete ignorance of how emotion and the brain work, for example 'Why did that person laugh at that time?', etc.) and the questions Dorothy asks Roger. Dorothy's questions relate to her personally 'Mr. Wise fell in love out of loniless, right?', 'Why does Oliver love you so much?'. Her questions tend to take emotion into consideration.

Data acted like he didn't understand emotion at all and thus didn't understand why humans did the things they did. Dorothy on the other hand seems to understand emotion better than anyone else on the show. We never hear Dorothy ask why Roger acts the way he does, Dorothy's even able picks up on Roger's denial of his feelings for her.

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She never denies her human side, nor does she question it. I don't think she does this even once, or even hints at it. The closest she ever comes is in asking, in Act 1, "What are you doing, praying?" and in DAEMONSEED, when she asks about Heaven's Day. Interestingly, both show a lack of knowledge of religious observance -- not a generalized ignorance at all.

You and I have different theories on what's going on in Dorothy's head when says 'I don't understand the emotions you people have' in act 4, and 'I am grateful to Dr. Wayneright for designing me so I wouldn't have emotions like that' in act 15. I think she doesn't yet understand herself, you think she's being cagey, and no matter what I don't think either one of us is going to get the other to agree with us on this point.

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I think we can dismiss the idea that Dorothy is more in tune with her android side than her human side. The android side scares the daylights out of her, but she bilthely falls in love with Roger and Pero and never seems to question this at all.

Yes, she certainly is more in tune with her human side, this goes without saying. But Dorothy allowed herself to be taken by the machines in act 23 because she was feeling guilty about lying to Norman,* something androids aren't 'suppose' to be capable of. So I sense a little internal conflict with Dorothy here. She still needs to figure out exactly where her android side fits in and with any luck she'll eventually come to the same conclusion Roger did: It really doesn't matter either way.


muchlove
-dork

edit: YES! YES! 1000st post! 1000th post! (and one with substance to boot!) Can I get a Hell Yeah!?

*and purhaps also for being jealous of Angel