Discuss the Current Episode

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Originally posted by DOA SOBF If those buildings were underwater because of the event 40 years ago, why did they not erase just as everything else did in Act 26. I think that the event that happened 40 years ago was a different event that happened in Act 26

Inconsistent, isn't it?

A lot of what happened in Act 26 is hard to explain. If the world is just a show, then the set is more real than the city. You'd expect the stage lights to remain after the set was torn down. But the stage lights were the first thing to vanish.

In my fan-fiction Season 3, I chose to believe that any new Paradigm was a variation on the old one, and that not only would a lot of irrelevant stuff from the previous cycle be preserved in the next one, but a lot of weird stuff that's taken on a life of its own would be carried over as well, or even introduced by accident. "Flaws in the reality technology" can be stretched to explain just about anything!

So are you implying that the event that happened in Act 26 is not the ssame event that happened 40 years ago.

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Originally posted by DOA SOBF So are you implying that the event that happened in Act 26 is not the ssame event that happened 40 years ago.

I think of the 'event' referred to as 'being' 40 years ago, as being the prime event: The War of the Megadei - but I don't think it was actually 40 years ago - the use of Uncle Act's 'Reality Weapons' simply make it appear that way. But I don't think it's the exact same 'event' as in 26, where Big Venus 'resets' reality (although I think a reset occured during or after the war). I think Big Venus's Reality Weapon use creates a sort of perceived 'temporal rewind effect' solely as a side effect - buildings come back damaged, humanity is nearly destroyed, and people have no memory of the previous loop (depending on how Big Venus's controls are set). The first event could have been hundreds (or thousands) of years ago, and nobody would know.

The more I think about it, the more fond I am of Uncle Tomato's 'solution'
Did I get that mostly right, Uncle?

I understood that the two events were diferent, but i did not know of this UNcle TOm. For some reason, i feel as if i am just extremely stupid, but please explain this solution.

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Originally posted by Bentar The more I think about it, the more fond I am of Uncle Tomato's 'solution' Did I get that mostly right, Uncle?

Well, you can't get my "theory" right in any kind of synopsis because my "theory" is more of a patchwork that explains away as many known facts as possible, for the purpose of letting me get my fan-fiction written. For the purposes of writing my fan-fiction Season 3, I decided the following ...

I think the key mechanism is the idea that "reality weapons" were used in some forgotten war. These weapons cause the area of effect to be replaced with some randomly selected alternate reality -- one which generally doesn't contain your enemies! Each use of these weapons permanently weakened the fabric of reality, to the point where the world is barely real at all, and what reality still exists has a tendency to collapse after a while.

Big Venus has a more advanced kind of reality generator that can be used to regenerate what reality remains, with modifications, boosting its level and allowing the world to go on for a few more decades. The technology is imperfect, and weird side effects and temporal eddy currents are created by accident, such as the loop with Dan Dastun and Sybil Rowan. Some of these side effects are vaguely useful. When WINTER NIGHT PHANTOM appears in the movie theatres, you know a reality collapse in imminent. Too bad no one remembers this.

Angel is and always has been the Dominus of Big Venus; she has always been the Director. She is unsuited to the role, and was chosen solely because Big Venus was available when the equipment was ready to be installed. Her main advantage is that playing god makes her feel inadequate; she doesn't have the kind of Megalomania that the crazies do. However, she spent a long period -- many cycles, Event after Event -- convinced that she was some kind of Director/Goddess (rather than basically a machine operator with an ugly job to do), and the overhead stage lights and other bric-a-brac are artifacts of these delusions. She regained her sanity when she fell in love with Roger Smith, who doesn't approve of delusions of grandeur, and she slowly regained her marbles.

Reality shifts are hard on people's memory (when you make people's past unhappen, what are you supposed to remember?) and their sanity. Megadeuses are resistant to the effects, are is anyone inside them, but they aren't immune. Their resistance means that the only place you can mount a reality weapon that you want to fire more than once is inside a Megadeus.

Megadeuses and the people associated with them keep recurring over time. They will reappear out of the blue. The humans often reappear as children, though not always. Roger Smith was killed in the battle that preceded the last Event, reappeared as an adult in the early part of the current cycle (where he appeared in the photo with Gordon), was killed again, and reappeared as a child a decade or two later. Dan Dastun generally appears in time to watch WINTER NIGHT PHANTOM as a child at the end of one cycle and act out his part during the next one.

While Big Venus is a secret known to practically no one, the *idea* of someone using giant robots or monsters to destroy and recreate the world appears spontaneously in people's heads. People who are both crazy and ambitious tend to go into the robot or monster business and try do destroy the city, hoping to achieve godlike powers. Eugene, Giesang, Schwarzwald, Vera, and Alex all suffered from this delusion. This madness is particularly powerful when the house of cards is about to collapse on its own, but it can affect people even in the beginning of a cycle.

People searching for "memories" are really looking for Megadeuses, though they don't generally know this. They get a vague conviction that the answers are buried underground somewhere. They're really hunting for Big Venus, but they never realize this. You'll notice that when they look for memories, what they find is Megadeuses.

Originally, a Megadeus team consisted of three people: A Dominus, a Megadeus, and a Class M android. For ages, all knowledge of the android's role was lost. Wayneright discovered this at the end of the last cycle, too late to build any, but he hid the information, the plans, and a recording of his daughter Dorothy's personality inside a Megadeus in the Underground, and asked Angel to make sure he remembered where to find it after the Event. Similarly, Gordon had developed a glass-like material that provided shielding that allowed people's memories to return quickly, and intended to build domes of this material over his chosen people, while leaving the rejects to their amnesia outside. This was to give the sane folks a head start in rediscovering Megadeus technology, which would hopefully prevent the crazies from being as destructive as usual. For some reason, the memory loss of the last Event was far more profound that intended, and Gordon forgot the purpose of his domes, and built them out of a non-shielding glass. Wayneright forgot all about Class M androids until after he acted on the inexplicable impulse to shield his house with one-inch copper. The crazies and the sane folks discovered Megadeuses at approximately the same time.

The rest you know.

Trying,,, to create,,,, Big O,,,,Theory,,,,,, causing,,,,, headaches,,,,,,,talking like,,,,,,Bad,,,,, Shatner,,,,, Impression.

I need to know... when.. Roger gets the Gordon half of the Gordon/Roger picture... I could have sworn it was in the first season... but maybe I'm going crazy...

On another tangent, please allow me to ramble about R-D.

So, R-D is wearing this red coat. Angel is also, and Angel is a member of the Union. Red is a Union color. Does this mean R-D is controlled by the Union?

Big Ear tells us that the people murdered by R-D were foreigners. The Union is foreigners. Were they killing their own?

In addition to being foreigners, the murdered people were Tomatoes... that means Gordon had something to do with the Union at one time. Gordon has a son, Alex. Alex hates the Union. Alex is a Tomatoe... Hmmmm...

R-D is almost exactly the same as Dorothy was created by Wayneright. Was R-D created by Wayenright? If so, when was R-D created? And was Wayneright in cahoots with the Union?

The list that comes out of Metropolis have names and barcodes. At the end, there is the name R-D. Does this mean that R-D had implanted memories, and was to kill herself? Or, was R-D really R. Dorothy, as Roger supposed, and that R-D was supposed to kill Dorothy? If so, did dorothy have implanted memories?

On an entirely different tangent...

Let me get this straight. There were three cases of murders:

The assasinations of the Senators, done by Cybil Rowan, member of the Union (who, by the way, DIED, and was in the Dastun movie... Gah! Dastun Movie! *Brain Explodes Violently*)

The assasinations of the young people, by R-D, whom I will assume was controlled by the Union. On a side note... Fitzgerald ( I think it was him... the robot senator?) didn't have a memory double, because he was an android... Hmmmm...

The Android Assasinations, which I will also assume was the Union, though it could also be that George Steinbrenner ordered the murders... I thought they were killed because they had memories... And you can't get memories from an android...

I won't even venture to ask why any of these people were killed, because as far as I know, the best way to get memories from someone is to talkl to them. I have also heard people say about Alex wanting them dead because the memories made them eligible to pilot megadei... But if the Union killed the people, and gave Alex Big Fau, what was Alex's end, that he apparantly didn't hold up?

Sorry that was so disorganized... I think I watched that episode one to many times.

P.S. Am I the only one who thinks that there wasn't a reset, but that Big Venus erased and ended the City? And that the scene, and succesive city at the end of The Show Must Go On was a different place? I don't mean other that Paradigm. Or perhaps that if there was a reset, that the last scene did not take place directly afterwards? As in some time passed?

[edit] *looks down*

You are too late, ImSoAwesome. And most of the time, I don't think enough.

Big Money, you think too much.

If you think about Big O too much, you'll go mad, change your name to Schwartzwald, and start dressing like a mummy.

Just warning you.

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Originally posted by Big Money I need to know... when.. Roger gets the Gordon half of the Gordon/Roger picture... I could have sworn it was in the first season... but maybe I'm going crazy...

Act 13, R-D.

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On another tangent, please allow me to ramble about R-D. So, R-D is wearing this red coat. Angel is also, and Angel is a member of the Union. Red is a Union color. Does this mean R-D is controlled by the Union?

You mean, you figure that members of secret societies are wearing bright red cloaks so everyone can figure out who they are?

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Big Ear tells us that the people murdered by R-D were foreigners. The Union is foreigners. Were they killing their own?

Logical fallacy. Cows are mammals. Humans are mammals. Does this make it cannibalism to eat hamburgers?

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In addition to being foreigners, the murdered people were Tomatoes... that means Gordon had something to do with the Union at one time. Gordon has a son, Alex. Alex hates the Union. Alex is a Tomatoe... Hmmmm...

It doesn't follow, since it's based on the fallacy exposed above.

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R-D is almost exactly the same as Dorothy was created by Wayneright. Was R-D created by Wayenright? If so, when was R-D created? And was Wayneright in cahoots with the Union?

In NEGOTIATION WITH THE DEAD (Act 15), we saw Wayneright's house, which still contained at least one working android (of a different model from Dorothy and R-D). He also left Glinda behind. How much other fully assembled and partially assembled stuff had Wayneright left behind? Anybody could have ransacked Wayneright's stuff and taken it for his own, if he managed not to be killed in the process. Vera claimed that the murders in R-D were arranged by Alex. The simplest explanation is that Alex found another Dorothy-style android and used her to do the murders. R-D's insane glee was reminiscent of Alan Gabriel, who may have helped. That's my guess.

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The list that comes out of Metropolis have names and barcodes. At the end, there is the name R-D. Does this mean that R-D had implanted memories, and was to kill herself? Or, was R-D really R. Dorothy, as Roger supposed, and that R-D was supposed to kill Dorothy? If so, did dorothy have implanted memories?

The list was planted by Angel, with the purpose of leading Roger to R-D. Whose idea this was is unclear. Gordon's? Alex's? Not Angel, anyway. Because the list was a plant, there's no reason to assume that it wasn't a fake.

As for Dorothy's memories, we can be pretty certain that she has human memories. We know for certain that Instro does; we see a memory of his where he sees a reflection of himself as a human child as he plays the piano. Instro is apparently based on a recording of Amadeus' dead son. Dorothy is apparently based on a recording of Wayneright's dead daughter.

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The Android Assasinations, which I will also assume was the Union, though it could also be that George Steinbrenner ordered the murders... I thought they were killed because they had memories... And you can't get memories from an android...

No, but you can use robot brains to fix the broken parts of Big Fau that the Union desperately wanted to stay broken.

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I won't even venture to ask why any of these people were killed, because as far as I know, the best way to get memories from someone is to talkl to them. I have also heard people say about Alex wanting them dead because the memories made them eligible to pilot megadei... But if the Union killed the people, and gave Alex Big Fau, what was Alex's end, that he apparantly didn't hold up?

No, apparently Alex had the senators killed because they would try to stop him from killing Gordon and becoming a god. He killed the "tomatoes" because they had the Senators' memories, and would presumably try to stop him from killing Gordon and becoming a god.

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P.S. Am I the only one who thinks that there wasn't a reset, but that Big Venus erased and ended the City? And that the scene, and succesive city at the end of The Show Must Go On was a different place? I don't mean other that Paradigm. Or perhaps that if there was a reset, that the last scene did not take place directly afterwards? As in some time passed?

I think you're right about the delay. Everybody went home, had a shower, ate a big meal, got some rest, and the scene at the very end of Act 26 happened sometime later. As for the rest, I think that Big Venus recreated the city pretty much as it was before Big Faul (and possibly before Big Duo) went on the rampage. Though presumably she edited out Vera and Alex.

Thanks for clearing that up...

Where in R-D is the picture? Me and BigKill watched it today, and couldn't find it... Probably not paying enough attention, which is a common problem.

Most of your answers make sense... Some of these things seem to happen in the ONE episode I haven't seen... oh well.

(I also couldn't tell by your answer... I meant the control room sequence act 26...)

Thanks again for your assistance.

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Originally posted by Big Money Thanks for clearing that up... Where in R-D is the picture? Me and BigKill watched it today, and couldn't find it... Probably not paying enough attention, which is a common problem. Most of your answers make sense... Some of these things seem to happen in the ONE episode I haven't seen... oh well. (I also couldn't tell by your answer... I meant the control room sequence act 26...) Thanks again for your assistance.

I must have my farm visits confused. The picture may have been in, what? Act 21 or 22; whenever Roger visits Gordon again.

As for the control room scene, no, I'm quite certain that the sequence was that Roger was standing in Big O talking to Angel, then he and Dorothy appeared in the control room, then Big O and Big Venus merged, and then the new world appeared.

That Roger and Dorothy were wearing new clothes when they appeared in the control room is neither here nor there, I think. There were a whole lot of changes goin' on.

It seemed to me that she was watching things that had already happened... And the merge-ness was before (?) the "Roger, the Negotiator."

Now I have to check 21... It might be 23...

Clockwork Tomato you may have thought alot but you still havent patched every hole. Such as:
1) If everyones memmories were truely erased by angel why does Alex's father the one who gets stuck with the rep?
2) Explain then if androids were of forgoten use, what was Alan? He remembers an experiment or somthing...
3) Why do memmories come back in tomatoes, if Alex's father (1) didn't have anything to do with the 'event' then how did he know to make the tomatoes.
4) Why does Angel elminate her own memories? And why did she accept the director role, and elimate the current reality?
5) If Big Venus is a reality distortion device, capable of controling not only memmories, but life, and birth times itself, then why all the fuss? Elminate all the Bigs Piolts!
6) Big Venus didn't really look tangible to me. How could a reallity distortion device elminate matter, or what people thought was matter, such as the domes.
7) Whats with the Roger factory scene? You know the one with the pressed suites. I don't think anyones answered that one.
If you shoot these down... and I'm sure you will... I have others.... this will do for now...
Somthings humanity was just not meant to understand. Big O is one of those things.

Number seven always seemed like action figures to me... just a guess.

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Originally posted by Agamemnon Clockwork Tomato you may have thought alot but you still havent patched every hole. Such as: 1) If everyones memmories were truely erased by angel why does Alex's father the one who gets stuck with the rep?

He was the ruler of Paradigm. High officials often get credit they don't deserve.

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2) Explain then if androids were of forgoten use, what was Alan? He remembers an experiment or somthing...

I'm not sure what you're asking.

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3) Why do memmories come back in tomatoes, if Alex's father (1) didn't have anything to do with the 'event' then how did he know to make the tomatoes.

The memory transfer technology used int he "tomatoes" doesn't seem, to me, to have a lot to do with the Event, one way or the other. People seem to remember a lot of technology, in spite of their amnesia.Why not medical technology?

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4) Why does Angel elminate her own memories? And why did she accept the director role, and elimate the current reality?

(a) I don't know. (b) Presumably, she accepts the director's role because it's hers and always has been. Somebody has to do it. (c) Did she really eliminate the current reality, or was it vanishing on its own?

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5) If Big Venus is a reality distortion device, capable of controling not only memmories, but life, and birth times itself, then why all the fuss? Elminate all the Bigs Piolts!

Maybe it's not so easy. Maybe the Bigs and their pilots are important. We have a lot of evidence that this is so.

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6) Big Venus didn't really look tangible to me. How could a reallity distortion device elminate matter, or what people thought was matter, such as the domes.

Why not? If you get to choose what's real and what isn't, making stuff vanish ought to be really easy.

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7) Whats with the Roger factory scene? You know the one with the pressed suites. I don't think anyones answered that one.

I don't think it's real. It's not plausible to use an injection molder to stick on flesh AND skin AND hair AND clothing AND eyeballs. I could just about believe it putting on flesh, and maybe skin, too. But suits and ties? I think a lot of the visions aren't 100% accurate. For example, I don't think Big O's cockpit ever filled up with ripe tomatoes. I think some of them are things that really happened in the past, some are things that might happen in the future, and some are things that can't happen.

Commends to you sir.
heres some more.
1) What created the Bigs? I assume that it was done in the past, before the EVENT. Yet Beck and others have displayed abilities to replicate the technology to some degree. Further more in one of the visions all of the Bigs were in one scene walking by each other, is this to say that the bigs worked together at one time?
2) Where did the domes come from? Why is there a desert outside? Are we to believe that there was a final battle as the book suggests. Which was written by Angel.
3) How do artifacts survive, such as the photo of Roger and Alex's father.
4) What I meant was what is the perpose of androids if no one knows their use?
5) Is Big Fau really a big? As a mentioned in question 1 they were all scene together yet the union 'sent' Alex the parts for Big Fau in the form of foreign Mega deus'.
6) If angel accepts her role has director than why doesn't she do a better job, and stop these time reacurrences. Obviously in this reality Roger didn't achieve what he was supposed to... Or did he... now im answering my own questions.
7) I doesn't make sense that Big Venus to elimate somethings and not others. Things such as androids, books, pictures, subway systems, plans for androids/Megas, and lastely knowlege.
So your saying that the tomato program didn't work. Though it did since the Dorothy look like was killing them off, where did she come from anyway?
9) If life outside of the domes is so impossible how did the UNION survive?
I know some of these are questions but I'm in a hurry sorry!

I hope I'm not treading on old ground here, but, looking back at one of my favorite episodes, I noticed that when Roger asks Dorothy about her 2nd question, we see her looking at Roger with a very very slight smile on her face. Also, going back to the theory of Beck making Dorothy say that phrase to Roger while she's squeezing the stuffing out of him, I believe that Beck made her say that by what he said to Roger while he activated the headband thing: "I'm playing you a fitting farewell". Just some random observations from watching a great ep. too many times.

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Originally posted by LoveFool71 I hope I'm not treading on old ground here, but, looking back at one of my favorite episodes, I noticed that when Roger asks Dorothy about her 2nd question, we see her looking at Roger with a very very slight smile on her face. Also, going back to the theory of Beck making Dorothy say that phrase to Roger while she's squeezing the stuffing out of him, I believe that Beck made her say that by what he said to Roger while he activated the headband thing: "I'm playing you a fitting farewell". Just some random observations from watching a great ep. too many times.

That's all well and good, but during "The Greatest Villain", Dorothy claims to be rescuing the man she loves. I know she said she was only joking to lighten the mood, but she's also been known to lie ("Hydra", I believe). Also, why would she shorted the circuits, knowing very well that it may cause has own demise? No, I believe Dorothy genuinely loves Roger and her statement wasn't the result of Beck's programming skills.

It's Saturday night -- Big O night!

I just watched "Roger the Negotiator" again. God, I love Dorothy's attitude!

Did you see the mutual attraction when Roger and Dorothy first set eyes on each other? Love at first sight, whatever Roger says later.

So much about the first two episodes is never explained. Where does Beck fit in? Did he just swoop in to steal the Dorothies, or was he part of the deal all along?

Why were Beck's henchmen back at Soldano's when Roger showed up? Hadn't they already left once?

How did all that blood end up on the OUTSIDE of the gantry?

Did Norman think Dorothy was human, or did he know she was an android all along?

Dorothy is affected very strongly by Megadeuses. We see this with Dorothy 1 in Act 1; we'll see it again later, many times. What about Big O? He's right there in the house!

The episode is a beautiful piece of work. It gives us one mystery after another, so we have lots of questions. It also gives us a beautiful android who always seems at least one step ahead of Roger Smith, who is no slouch himself.

By the way, it looked to me as if Big O is right-handed, because that's the hand he picked Roger up with.

I just happened to catch the series tonight. I was surprised to see ep one was on again. That bodes well to me for a third season.

Anyway, was I the only one who noticed that Dastun seems to have a different voice this time around. Anyone else hear a difference?