Discuss the Current Episode

quote:

Originally posted by Dork I don't know what Roger's problem is. Maybe he's just a commitment phobe?

Here's what I think -- he has a strong personal and physical attraction to Dorothy, yet has an aversion to the idea of romance (or sex) with an android. This dissonance reveals itself in different ways. In particular, he acts badly in more intimate and domestic circumstances -- mealtimes, for instance -- and better during more professional or crisis-driven circumstances.

He loves Dorothy (though he would never use that word), and will do extravagent things on her behalf so long as he doesn't think they're "romantic." Thus, he'll buy her an expensive coat for her birthday but not for Heaven's Day, since in Paradigm Heaven's Day is when lovers buy presents for one another, but birthdays don't have this connotation. He'll try to buy Pero because in this context he's thinking of Dorothy as a girl rather than a woman.

He cares deeply about Dorothy, and has from the very start. He just can't see himself as her boyfriend. In ELECTRIC CITY, he's uncomfortable having her around all the time. By UNDERGROUND TERROR, he's gotten over this. He's not THAT slow a learner.

He loosens up bit by bit. By the end of Act 26, there's no question that the two of them are a couple -- not in my mind, at least.

quote:

Originally posted by Dork I don't know what Roger's problem is. Maybe he's just a commitment phobe?

I think it's simply that he was strongly attracted to Dorothy from the first, but had to overcome the idea that

spoiler (highlight to read):

sex with androids is wrong

.

Pygmalion

Well, I'm glad I finally got you guys' attention.

Roger's, like countless anime heros before him, is histronic.


::coughcough::

::stares at wall::

That's it. I have no follow-up.

Roger doesn't bother me so much now that I've seen 'The Show Must Go on'. What I'm thinking about now is where does their relationship go from there.

The sex with androids thing is deffinatly a factor. Although I think really early in the series he might have been trying not to think about it. After 'TSMGo' it's deffinatly something that needs to be addressed, though I have no illusions that it would be discussed so openly on the show.

But just because Roger's accepted that he's interested and in love with Dorothy does not mean they can jump right to the sex issue. This isn't a soap opera or Star Trek (or even Babylon 5-John and Delenn- now wouldn't that just be a freaky thing to happen to Roger and Dorothy?!). Just because they both know they love each other does not mean they can jump straight into bed. We still need a first kiss, which shouldn't happen immediently.

Okay, now I gotta go eat. I'll finish this later.
-------------------------------------------


muchlove
-dork

Okay, I'm back. . . two days later. . . plenty enough time for me to forget the point I was getting to up there.


New Dorothy Wayneright theory!

. . . (well, new for me. . .)

One thing about 'Underground Terror'. I know we've been saying all along that what really stalled Roger and Dorothy's relationship at the start was Roger's insistance that Dorothy didn't have emotions. But in acts 3 and 4 Roger's not the only one claiming Dorothy doesn't have emtions.

Dorothy spent possibly a year living with Dr. Wayneright before 'Roger the Negotiator' which is plenty of time for the good doctor to do some serious emotional stunting on his android Daughter. Wayneright created her to be his dead daughter. He didn't particularly care about R. Dorothy's personality or her feelings so he didn't try to nurture the person she was.

R. Dorothy is still very much a child. And she spent the very important first year of her life just pretending to be someone she wasn't. When she showed emtion in front of Wayneright she didn't nessesarily feel it. He tells a joke, she's programmed to respond accordingly. So it's no surprise that Dorothy would claim she hadn't afraid of the archetype. She'd spent her life simply giving the correct response to a situation without any real emotion involved.

So when she came to the Smith house she doesn't think she has emotions either. She doesn't even attempt to refute Roger in underground terror when he says "I know you can't feel terror". Of course she never contradicts him anyway but at the end of the episode he teases her by asking if she feels cold. "Even I can decern temperature. Mere function.". Almost saying 'Just because I display the emotions doesn't mean I feel them'. It's no surprise that she does this. She'd spent her life simply giving the correct response to a situation without any real emotion involved.


Even as late as act 15 Dorothy Dr. Wayneright did not give her the feeling of nostagia. And we all know that isn't true.

So I guess the good news is that Roger's not entirely responsible for Dorothy's screwed up view of her emotions. The only thing he can be blamed for is re-enforcing those wrong views.


muchlove
-dork

I don't think Dorothy spent any time with her 'father' until EP2. It was mentioned that Mr. Wayneright had Saldano build big Dorothy One so to fund the building of little Dorothy Two, which probably means that little Dorothy was built last. When Becks goes to steal big Dorothy, he somehow also gets little Dorothy, maybe because they were in the same location / container. The fact that little Dorothy is still with Saldano and not with her father would mean that he hasn't picked her up yet after her creation. Also, after she was rescued, had she already known her father, she would have returned to him instead of going to see Roger.

It's rather sad that Dorothy was only able to spend such a brief time with her father, a time when she looked the most happiest and human in the whole show.

quote:

Originally posted by badbob001 I don't think Dorothy spent any time with her 'father' until EP2. It was mentioned that Mr. Wayneright had Saldano build big Dorothy One so to fund the building of little Dorothy Two, which probably means that little Dorothy was built last. When Becks goes to steal big Dorothy, he somehow also gets little Dorothy, maybe because they were in the same location / container. The fact that little Dorothy is still with Saldano and not with her father would mean that he hasn't picked her up yet after her creation. Also, after she was rescued, had she already known her father, she would have returned to him instead of going to see Roger. It's rather sad that Dorothy was only able to spend such a brief time with her father, a time when she looked the most happiest and human in the whole show.

No, it's official that R. Dorothy was fully a year old when she was kidnapped. Remember, we don't know the circumstances of how Beck kidnapped the Dorothies at all. I'd say it's highly unlikely that they were actually kidnapped at the same time or in the same place, and if they were, it was likely the convienence of getting an android and a Megadeus when they came to steal a Megadeus.

Also, it was not the construction of Dorothy 1 that funded R. Dorothy's construction, it was merely the plans and likely the core memory system as well. That Dorothy 1 was actually built was probably secondary to Wayneright, who merely wanted his daughter, so the android was likely built first. There have been indications that an android is necessary to awaken a Megadeus, so constructing R. Dorothy before Dorothy 1 would be practical as well as fitting with Wayneright's wishes.

Further, she clearly knew who Wayneright was. While going to West Dome 5 after the incident at Soldano's factory, she briefly saw Dr. Wayneright in a crowd and said "Father" as they drove by. Also, she had memories of Dr. Wayneright's lab/mansion, and indicated that she'd spent some time there with him in Act 15. So it wasn't like she'd never met the man or had only seen him at Soldano's factory.

Just to go back to ep 26 for a minute (yeah, yeah, I know, it was a week ago)

Did anyone notice that when Angel looks at the banks of screens, the "on the air" light it lit? (the other says "stand by", the lettering is faint but readable)

Looks like Angel managed to get a prime time slot too.

I dunno if this has been done, but is there any way to blow it up so that you can pick out what scenes are being depicted on the Smaller Monitors (Other than the top center three)?

My copy isn't clear enough to blow up well. However...

Let's see if people can fill in, though. I will label the three rows a, b, and c, and go from left to right.

1a) not sure

2a) Roger giving his speech

3a) Roger giving his speech

4a) Roger giving his speech

5a) Roger with Angel in the Griffon, I forget which Act


1b)

2b)

3b)

4b) Isn't that when Angel gives her name as Patricia Lovejoy?

5b) Angel and Roger at the diner

6b) Roger comforting Angel after he puts his coat over her shoulders after Vera has whipped her

7b)

1c)

2c) When they are trapped in the underwater building

3c) This is Missing Cat, I think, just before Angel complains "I'm not prepared for this" and takes off her coat

4c)

5c)

6c) Roger and Angel on the beach

7c)

Well, they all seem to be various scenes from Big O. I don't believe any of them show what's currently going on, since the ones which contain Roger have him wearing his suit, when he was not at the time. I can't make out much of them, but here's what I can do:

Right Side:

Top Row, Left - Roger sitting, looks like Big O, possibly someone next to him (to his left).

Second Row, Left - Roger and Angel sitting across from each other at a table.

Second Row, Right - Roger without his suit sitting, it doesn't look quite like the cockpit of Big O. He appears to be sitting with someone who has blonde hair... again, maybe Angel.

Third Row, Left - Roger and Angel at the beach.

Third Row, Right - Looks like that building where Angel told Roger about Seebach being dead. Sort of.

Center: (Going Clockwise)

1 - This appears to be a close up of Angel.

2 - Roger talking to Beck, I believe. It's definitely Roger, but Angel's head obscures most of who she's talking to.

3 - It looks to me like a gun turret on a tank, but this could be something else... it distinctly looks like a weapon, though, so the tank is a good bet.

4 - Well... it looks to me like Roger is wearing pink and Angel is wearing black and she's carrying him. I have no clue what this one is displaying.

5 - Entirely blocked by Angel.

6 - So blurry, you can't tell.

Left Side:

Top Left - I think this is Big O standing between two buildings, but I'm not sure.

Second Row, Left - I think this is Roger talking to Angel. It's definitely Roger, and the woman sort of looks like Angel.

Second Row, Right - Angel with someone/something behind her.

Third Row, Left - Angel pointing toward something or pointing something out to a Roger-like character.

Third Row, Right - I can't tell what's happening here. Someone leaning against a pole (Angel?) with someone looking on.

----------------


I think what you can draw from this is that Angel has something for Roger... most of the images are of either Roger, Angel or a combination of the two. Also, there doesn't seem to be Dorothy in any of them.

Spent a few minutes on this (it's as best as I could get it (being 2am and all )


-Snake

This is fun. Comparing my TiVo and snake's images, here's what I've come up with.

Row a:
1: Roger in front of cockpit? #14 or 26
2, main, 4: Roger's speech to Angel/Venus #26
5: Roger & Angel in Griffon #15 or 20

Row b:
1: Roger in Wayneright's lab? #15
2: Roger & Angel in sub, #7
3: Angel's profile with what looks like a reflection in water #20?
4: Angel picks up "Major Smith" #14
5: Megadeus fights satellite #16
6: Roger & Angel in diner #20
7: Roger saves Angel in underground set #25

Row c:
1: Roger & Angel underground in Eugene's lab? #8
2: Roger & Angel trapped underwater #7
3: Roger & Angel running from Pero-chimera in dome #8
4: Griffon exterior
5: ?
6: Beach scene #20
7: Roger in office, Smith Mansion? #3

Pygmalion

quote:

Originally posted by Pygmalion This is fun. Comparing my TiVo and snake's images, here's what I've come up with. Row a: 1: Roger in front of cockpit? #14 or 26 2, main, 4: Roger's speech to Angel/Venus #26 5: Roger & Angel in Griffon #15 or 20 Row b: 1: Roger in Wayneright's lab? #15 2: Roger & Angel in sub, #7 3: Angel's profile with what looks like a reflection in water #20? 4: Angel picks up "Major Smith" #14 5: Megadeus fights satellite #16 6: Roger & Angel in diner #20 7: Roger saves Angel in underground set #25 Row c: 1: Roger & Angel underground in Eugene's lab? #8 2: Roger & Angel trapped underwater #7 3: Roger & Angel running from Pero-chimera in dome #8 4: Griffon exterior 5: ? 6: Beach scene #20 7: Roger in office, Smith Mansion? #3 Pygmalion

b1 is Act 3 where she gives him back his shades in the connecting tunnel to the powerplant from Sven's house.
c1 is also from Act 3 where Angel points out the one headed Hydra to Roger.
c7 is at the end of Act 17 where R and D meet Angel in Schwarzwald's burned out place and she tells them about Crispy's supposed fate.
If any of others are misidentified by your account, I can't tell if they are, the image quality of the original is simply too poor to get a positive id on the scene.

quote:

Originally posted by BigPrime No, it's official that R. Dorothy was fully a year old when she was kidnapped. Remember, we don't know the circumstances of how Beck kidnapped the Dorothies at all. I'd say it's highly unlikely that they were actually kidnapped at the same time or in the same place, and if they were, it was likely the convienence of getting an android and a Megadeus when they came to steal a Megadeus.

Interesting. When was it mentioned that Dorothy was a year old as of the kidknapping? I wonder if Beck went to steal Dorothy 1 and then had to kidknap Dorothy 2 from her Wayneright home as well because she was needed to activate her big sister. This would explain why Beck had both Dorothy's. Perhaps Saldano only knew about the kidnapping of Dorothy 1 and was surprised to get Dorothy 2 in the exchange. But it is puzzling that Saldano would report the lost of Dorothy 1 but Mr. Wayneright did not report Dorothy 2's kidnapping. One explaination would be if both Dorothy's were stolen directly from Saldano and Mr. Wayneright was not involved yet. But then that raises the question of why Dorothy 2 was with Saldano. A tune-up? Then again, perhaps both kidnapping were reported but the police got confused and merged both into one case. So when Beck wanted to exchange Dorothy 2, Saldano thought it was for Dorothy 1. My brain hurts...

quote:

Originally posted by BigPrime Further, she clearly knew who Wayneright was. While going to West Dome 5 after the incident at Soldano's factory, she briefly saw Dr. Wayneright in a crowd and said "Father" as they drove by.

I've alway assumed she 'knew' her father due to the memories of the real Dorothy.

Perhaps I need to rewatch season 2 (just watched the season 1 collection).

I have a rathe roff topic question, but I think it would be alright if i asked it here... anyway, does anyone know if they are going to make a complete 4 disc set of Season 2 like they did to season 1,because i will just buy the individually now if they arent makin a DVD collectors edition.

quote:

Originally posted by DOA SOBF I have a rathe roff topic question, but I think it would be alright if i asked it here... anyway, does anyone know if they are going to make a complete 4 disc set of Season 2 like they did to season 1,because i will just buy the individually now if they arent makin a DVD collectors edition.

I would like to buy a collection of season 2 as well. But I don't think we'll know anything until after the remaining two disks are released. Hope we don't have to wait a year or so like the last time.

quote:

Originally posted by badbob001 quote: Originally posted by BigPrime No, it's official that R. Dorothy was fully a year old when she was kidnapped. Remember, we don't know the circumstances of how Beck kidnapped the Dorothies at all. I'd say it's highly unlikely that they were actually kidnapped at the same time or in the same place, and if they were, it was likely the convienence of getting an android and a Megadeus when they came to steal a Megadeus. Interesting. When was it mentioned that Dorothy was a year old as of the kidknapping? I wonder if Beck went to steal Dorothy 1 and then had to kidknap Dorothy 2 from her Wayneright home as well because she was needed to activate her big sister. This would explain why Beck had both Dorothy's. Perhaps Saldano only knew about the kidnapping of Dorothy 1 and was surprised to get Dorothy 2 in the exchange. But it is puzzling that Saldano would report the lost of Dorothy 1 but Mr. Wayneright did not report Dorothy 2's kidnapping. One explaination would be if both Dorothy's were stolen directly from Saldano and Mr. Wayneright was not involved yet. But then that raises the question of why Dorothy 2 was with Saldano. A tune-up? Then again, perhaps both kidnapping were reported but the police got confused and merged both into one case. So when Beck wanted to exchange Dorothy 2, Saldano thought it was for Dorothy 1. My brain hurts... quote: Originally posted by BigPrime Further, she clearly knew who Wayneright was. While going to West Dome 5 after the incident at Soldano's factory, she briefly saw Dr. Wayneright in a crowd and said "Father" as they drove by. I've alway assumed she 'knew' her father due to the memories of the real Dorothy. Perhaps I need to rewatch season 2 (just watched the season 1 collection).

I read that Dorothy was a year old here on the board. I don't think it was ever stated on the show (no characters besides Angels were, actually). I think it comes from the Japanese official Big O site, which had a list of all the characters ages as of the start of the series.

As to why Wayneright didn't report Dorothy missing: remember, neither Wayneright nor Soldano actually had a living daughter. Wayneright's was 40 years dead, Soldano had no children. So neither of them could just go to the police and report a nonexistant girl having been kidnapped, just as neither could report a stolen (illegally built) Megadeus either. So they (well Soldano) went to a private Negotiator to sort things out without calling the police. Once the negotiation went bust, Roger turned the case over to the authorities (and that's when all of Soldano's deceptions started turning up, as they had the records to show he didn't have a daughter).

I think that Dr. Wayneright was probably going to wait it out and hope for the best and if not, he had at least one duplicate of R. Dorothy stashed away as insurance, we know her as Red Destiny. So he had a lot less to lose than Soldano, and thus was likely a bit more patient about things.

quote:

Originally posted by Wingnut b1 is Act 3 where she gives him back his shades in the connecting tunnel to the powerplant from Sven's house. c1 is also from Act 3 where Angel points out the one headed Hydra to Roger. c7 is at the end of Act 17 where R and D meet Angel in Schwarzwald's burned out place and she tells them about Crispy's supposed fate. If any of others are misidentified by your account, I can't tell if they are, the image quality of the original is simply too poor to get a positive id on the scene.

Good catch! I was wondering why I didn't recognize any images from "Electric City." Maybe that screen at c5 is from that as well.

Pygmalion

Better than "Cats." I want to see it again and again.

Seriously though, it *is* one of my four or five favorite episodes (or "Acts"). Gets me *right here* every time. Catch it again, or for the first time (in which case I envy you) at 1:00 A.M. Eastern, 12:00 Central Time.

Also, immediately following that will be "Session #26: The Real Folk Blues, Part 2," the very last, final episode (or "session") of Cowboy Bebop (if anyone else here is into that too). That one's about tied with Session #5, "Ballad of Lost Angels" for my favorite Bebop episode, though there are many other very good ones. This one and #24, "Hard Luck Woman" always kind of get me *right here* too.

Doc

OMG it's the last episode of Cowboy Bebop? I never got to see it, so I'm glad you posted that.

Also, as an item of side note, Janet Jackson is on David Letterman tonight . . .

More on topic, I liked "Missing Cat". It's a good episode.