Discuss the Current Episode

Alright, I've been thinking.

::hides behind barrier:: In a very technical sense the 'We have come to terms' card was correctly used for this episode. If you think about it these cards have never applied to the plot of the episode (except with the 'to be continued' ones), they always refer instead to the character conflicts, usually just between our main characters; Roger, Dorothy, Dastun, and Angel.

'The Show Must Go on' was the ultimate 'We hve come to terms'; Roger's finally looking like he knows how he feels about Dorothy and Angel, Roger makes the choice not to merge with Big O, Angel in her grief turns into Big Venus and destroys the world that had let her down, Dastun, after seeing so much corruption and facistism(?) in the M.P. turns in his badge and helps Big O and Roger for the first time. BUT that doesn't mean the story is over.

My bigest justificationg for this unfortunatly does not put to use any facts. Here's the thing. When you get to the *end* of a really great story, for example "Babylon 5", when you see Londo's final fall into darkness and you sit through that final dinner, after you've seen Delenn reaching out to the raising sun; what do you want to do right after that? Go back to the beginning!

I've watched 'The Show Must Go on' about 2 and a half times already and I have to say that at no point did I think 'Boy! I feel like watching 'Roger the Negotiator' again!'. No, right now, I just want to see what happens next.

There are far too many theories floating around here about what major aspects of the show mean for this show to be over. Theories are good, theories are great, no one wants every single little thing explained but at the end of this show, this story we should (for example) be able to say with certainty that we know what happened 40 years ago and why everyone lost their memories.

'The Show Must Go on' is just another cliff-hanger.



EDIT:

Yeah, I noticed too that they used the right credits at normal speed. That was a very nice gesture for the (as of now) last episode. If I can get my lazy self to right a letter I'll thank them for that. It was really nice.

EDIT:

Oh! New favorite line:

"Dorothy! You could have come up with a gentler way to bring me around. Like, uh, mouth to mouth or something."

Am I the only one who thought that was sweet? Or am I just a skankier romantic than originally assumed?


muchlove
-dork

p.s. I'm going to go back later and edit this, lunch awaits!

You're right, Dork, that is a very sweet line on Roger's part. Dorothy's response was also perfect, calling him a louse again so he stopped being as mushy as he gets and get back to fighting Alex Rosewater.

I do agree, The Show Must Go On, while it can serve as an ending to the series, is far better if it turns out simply being the season, rather than series finale. I hope that in the next year, CN announces that Big will be back again. )

Notice too how Roger's tone changes from being annoyed to being, for lack of a better word, almost sheepish. Almost as if that line was made for Beck instead of Roger.

quote:

Originally posted by Wingnut Notice too how Roger's tone changes from being annoyed to being, for lack of a better word, almost sheepish. Almost as if that line was made for Beck instead of Roger.

You know, Roger has just got to get over being annoyed with Dorothy first and greatful second. A human women would've done something worse than calling him a louse. Like throwing the air tank at him. Her response was perfect Dorothy.

At least he got over the idea that mouth to mouth with her might not be sucha bad idea

quote:

Originally posted by BigPrime quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras I also noticed that Roger's hair didn't get messed up despite the fact that he had just been underwater Roger uses Tomato Dominus-brand hair gel. Guarenteed never to mess up in battle no matter the circumstances!

Jack Lord used the same product during his Hawaii Five-0 days, I think.

Talking about Act 26, I'd like to mention something about Norman's line about the human form.

spoiler (highlight to read):

He's reminding Beck that "memories" are found in the human form. What Beck is talking about is computer parts and data such as Roger's Big O skills, calling them memories. Gordon does the same; he wants the people to realize, now that he is growing old and the danger has passed, that there never were any "memories", because there was nothing prior to 40 years ago to remember.

I shall go and amend my Theory now.
Toodles!
*plunks a jar of asprin on the table*
On the house, Dork. You'll need it if you want to figure out Act 26 all by yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Dork Alright, I've been thinking. ::hides behind barrier:: In a very technical sense the 'We have come to terms' card was correctly used for this episode. If you think about it these cards have never applied to the plot of the episode (except with the 'to be continued' ones), they always refer instead to the character conflicts, usually just between our main characters; Roger, Dorothy, Dastun, and Angel.

That's right. Act 26 wraps up the second season. It doesn't wrap up the show. Act 26 resolves the two main Season 2 plot threads: which woman was going to end up with Roger and whether Alex was going to succeed in remaking the world in his own image. It in no way resolved the other plot threads, such as what happened 40 years ago, or why the Underground is scary, or why this anomalous Megadeus technology exists in a much lower-tech society, or even the nature of android intelligence (are they artificial intelligence or actual human individuals replicated in a different medium?)

And of course it doesn't resolve AT ALL the weird stuff that happened in the last few episodes. All that is left for Season 3.

Just for fun, I wrote a Season 3 of my own, mostly because too many people said that it couldn't be done (see the links in my signature). I think it's obvious from the events of the last few episodes that the show's creators have every intention of doing a Season 3. If they didn't, the last episode would have tied everything up with a big ribbon. But the opposite happened. They answered just enough questions to leave us screaming for more.

quote:

Originally posted by BabyGhia And yes, please take some aspirin for your "tomato" headaches! They might not go away for awhile. Sorry! BabyGhia

You got that right, BabyGhia! There was a two+ year gap between Season 1 (2001) and Season 2 (2003) in America - and Big O Season 1 was first shown in Japan back in 1999! The people at Adult Swim / Cartoon Network have a mean sense of humor - but bottom-line, they aren't THAT mean!

I'm hoping AS/CN will say something (other than another taunt) about Season 3 by bumper on the upcomming final rerun of the last S2 episode - well, the last rerun for awhile.

[EDIT] Corrected the color in BabyGhia's quote back to orange

Well, I don't plan on worrying about S3 for very much longer.

With the type of girly A.D.H.D. I have I tend to hyper focus. I've figured out that this isn't something unique to just the things I think about on a daily basis but also spills over on to my favorite shows. Which means that I only really like one show at any time, there's three I switch between; Farscape, Babylon 5 and hopefully now 'The Big O'. I'll stay interested in any given one until something happens in another one, usually a DVD release. Babylon 5 season 5 comes out in less than a month. Once that comes out you guys probably are not going to see me for awhile.

It really really sucks a lot. Kinda funny. Kinda sad. Mostly sad because I wish I could be interested in 'The Big O' and 'B5 and 'Farscape' at the same time. But biology hates me.

::sigh::

Anywho, about tonight's ep.


I wanted to watch this ep to try to help Big O's ratings. Ug. I shall be tuning in Sunday for results.

*Why would they air the S1 intro? Hmm, I guess the credits they give after the show starts aren't in english so that might be why.

*About half-way through this episode I was overcome with the urge to go take screencaps of it from the DVD with the japanese language on.

*The scene where Roger uses Dorothy as a decoy never fails to amuse me. He spends the next 26 episodes trying to get her *out* of trouble.

*Judging from the looks Dorothy was giving Roger at the beginning I'm thinking it might have been love at first sight for her. I don't like the idea of 'love at first sight' but that does seem to be what happened.

*It's a little harder figuring out when Roger fell in love with Dorothy since he's in constant denial over the whole thing. Consciously he doesn't believe she's really sentient, doesn't believe her emotions are real and that she operates of her own free will. Over the course of the last six episodes he either realizes that she is, for lack of a better word, sentient or he just acknowledges the fact.

Interesting stuff.

Oh, and about the next episode. I was thinking about why Dorothy would hide from Roger like that.

Okay, so assuming Dorothy *is* Dorothy 1 than a good reason she would be hiding from him would not be because she was putting on an act for Wayneright but because, there's no way I'd be able to say this out loud without laughing, Roger had, just hours before, kicked her ass.

::coughcough::



Well he did.



-dork

I'm still waiting to here your (and other new fans') take on the meaning of it all (tm), Dork.

It's interesting to see what everyone comes up with.

quote:

Originally posted by Bentar quote: Originally posted by BabyGhia And yes, please take some aspirin for your "tomato" headaches! They might not go away for awhile. Sorry! BabyGhia You got that right, BabyGhia! There was a two+ year gap between Season 1 (2001) and Season 2 (2003) in America - and Big O Season 1 was first shown in Japan back in 1999! The people at Adult Swim / Cartoon Network have a mean sense of humor - but bottom-line, they aren't THAT mean! I'm hoping AS/CN will say something (other than another taunt) about Season 3 by bumper on the upcomming final rerun of the last S2 episode - well, the last rerun for awhile. [EDIT] Corrected the color in BabyGhia's quote back to orange

Yes, they do keep taunting us! BAD AS/CN!

I must say my favorite thing about ep 1 is all in Roger's first words. That grabbed me. Oh wait... it was Steve Blum's voice that got to me. But, seriously, it's a very good episode. One of my faves. I always find Roger's first interactions with Dorothy very humorous. Our Roger grows up so much in the next 25 eps.

BabyGhia

(Thanks, Bentar, for correcting the orange! )

quote:

Originally posted by Dork *Judging from the looks Dorothy was giving Roger at the beginning I'm thinking it might have been love at first sight for her. I don't like the idea of 'love at first sight' but that does seem to be what happened.

It looks like she liked him as soon as he took off her blindfold, you see the look on her face? hint of a smile there

And Roger probably was first "enamored" with Dorothy when he was checking her out saying "Well, you are skillfully built" or something like that

Roger Smith: Im a playa for life

quote:

Originally posted by C.R Foxhound quote: Originally posted by Dork *Judging from the looks Dorothy was giving Roger at the beginning I'm thinking it might have been love at first sight for her. I don't like the idea of 'love at first sight' but that does seem to be what happened. It looks like she liked him as soon as he took off her blindfold, you see the look on her face? hint of a smile there And Roger probably was first "enamored" with Dorothy when he was checking her out saying "Well, you are skillfully built" or something like that Roger Smith: Im a playa for life

Oh, he was attracted from the start. Look at the way he said "Ahhh" when the blindfold came off. Look at the way they couldn't tear their eyes from each other. Look at his strong reaction to finding out she was an android. One doesn't react with such negativity if one wasn't already thinking of getting to know the other better. Much better.

The whole rest of the show has been Roger coming to terms with the idea that Dorothy is a person, a woman, and a potential lover.

Pygmalion

I wish I could get ahold of the version of sure promise that played during the first big o vs. big duo fight. Basically an extended version. With the regular version it feels like the song cuts out just as it gets good.

quote:

Originally posted by Pygmalion quote: Originally posted by C.R Foxhound quote: Originally posted by Dork *Judging from the looks Dorothy was giving Roger at the beginning I'm thinking it might have been love at first sight for her. I don't like the idea of 'love at first sight' but that does seem to be what happened. It looks like she liked him as soon as he took off her blindfold, you see the look on her face? hint of a smile there And Roger probably was first "enamored" with Dorothy when he was checking her out saying "Well, you are skillfully built" or something like that Roger Smith: Im a playa for life Oh, he was attracted from the start. Look at the way he said "Ahhh" when the blindfold came off. Look at the way they couldn't tear their eyes from each other. Look at his strong reaction to finding out she was an android. One doesn't react with such negativity if one wasn't already thinking of getting to know the other better. Much better. The whole rest of the show has been Roger coming to terms with the idea that Dorothy is a person, a woman, and a potential lover. Pygmalion

Really, I could practically hear it in Roger's head when he and Dorothy finally turned to Soldano after all his ranting "Do you mind? We're falling in love at first sight here."

quote:

[i] A more likely suggestion is that our "Tomato Roger" is a clone, an almost perfect one no less. Maybe that's what Gordon meant by him not being "one of [his] cherished/beloved tomatoes"...

Didn't Rosewater also say that the tomatoes had all the delicious memories of the original, and that as they reproduce over and over, eventually they will be just like the originals?

Gorden said something like 'This fruit is reproduced synthetically with all the sweet memories of the original. If we continue the process eventually they will become the real thing.'

Anywho, about last night's episode.

Poor Roger, when Dorothy asked him to protect her he didn't know it would be the for the rest of his life.
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These first two episodes that introduce the series have to be my absolute favorite.

And 'Dorothy Dorothy' has my favorite big O screenshot in it; Dorothy hiding behind Wayneright. She really is a beautiful girl but what I love about it is her sad eyes. Slightly downcast, obviously not looking at Roger, Dorothy is the caged nightingale. So much can be taken from this image. She wants to go with Roger but after the fight with Dorothy 1 she knows she can't trust him. He'll destory her too. And even as a caged bird at least she still alive.

I'm not sure if Roger's in love with her this early in the series, but certainly does act like it at the Nightingale. You have to love his "Dorothy! Dorothy, where have you been? I was worried about you."

He looked so hurt when she hid from him. It wasn't just simple surprise either. It was the look of a man who discovered the girl he wanted to protect, the person he loved, just wanted to be protected from him. We see this again later in the night after Dorothy gets off stage and refuses to talk to him, but this time he's not only hurt but a little angry with her.

It's hard to believe that the next episode is 'Electric City'. Esspecially after his rant to her when she was still hooked up to the machine it's weird to see him insist that her emotions aren't real.

I'm of the oppinion that Dorothy does need a little of the food she eats. That had to hurt a little, you're just trying to store up a little energy and the louse down the table points a fork at you and says that you're just mimicing.

But this Roger in action vs. Roger in thinking here.

I'll finish this later. I'm not done. I'm almost late for phychology!
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Thanks Wingnut!



I think. . .
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EDIT: Okay! I'm back.

Roger in action vs. Roger in thinking. I've been over this before but I'm just going to say it again. In his heart Roger knows that Dorothy is more than just an android, she's not very different from him.

I'm only taking a introduction to Physchology type class but even from that little bit I find myself watching people and thinking about them as just a collection of hormones and conditioned responses. When there is a crisis involving Dorothy Roger doesn't think about her programming. When she's hurt or under Beck's control all he knows is that he has to get her out, because she's important to him, because she's not that different from him. And then, when things have calmed down Roger stops thinking about Dorothy as a whole and starts thinking about her coponant parts. If you look at anything too closely it will begin to lose it's meaning. And when Roger thinks about her being an android he convinces himself that she is nothing more than her programming. Of course, humans have programming too, we just don't think about ourselves that way.

Normally I wouldn't suggest this for anyone but it might be good for Roger if he just didn't think for a week. He stresses himself out when he thinks. 'Oh no! I'm a tomato!', and the always brilliant 'Does caring about an android make me less human?!'. That idiot in his head just needs to shut for awhile. When he doesn't other analyze these things he comes up with wonderful lines about how even though he was brought into the world with a purpose doesn't mean he can't live his life an a free human being.

But it's okay! He gets over it eventually. Call it a phase.

Dorothy does make her own decisions too. I liked that the last 6 episodes really seem to have quiet a few parrelells to the first two episodes.

'Twisted Memories' and 'Dorothy Dorothy' are the only times that Roger is not able to save Dorothy (at least in his first attempt). Both times Dorothy, of her own will, leaves Roger. Even though the machines do take her in 'TM' she could have gotten away, she let them take her. Both times she leaves because she believes it is what she is suppose to do. She was made to be Wayneright's daughter, she feels it is her destiny to go with the machines. Both times it really ticks Roger off (and both times Dorothy is unresponsive to him when he comes to get her). In 'The big Fight' I get the feeling that he's really starting to hate destiny. Destiny's screwing him every way he looks at it, but that's a dfferent matter entirely.

From 'Dorothy Dorothy' to 'The show must go on!' Dorothy and Roger switch roles in the resuce. In 'DD' Roger is in a tight spot, not sure of how he's going to defeat Dorothy 1 (it was looking pretty good for Roger until he found out Dorothy was in there though). When he pulls her out of Dorothy 1 not only does he save her, but getting her out of there she helps him (passively) to defeat Dorothy 1. While in 'TSMGo!' Dorothy is in a rather tight spot herself, what with her brain missing and all. She's stuck, unable to really function until she senses/sees that Roger needs her help, at that point she's able to fully snap out of it. By helping him, he helps her. I'm deffinatly digging a bit, I just think it's an interesting dynamic between the two of them.

Dorothy and Angel's, even though she's not introduced until the third episode, relationships with Roger completely switch between the beginning and the end of the series. It's even shown in Big Ear's line 'Is the knight in shining armor going to rescue the damsel in destress?'. When we first hear it the line, in 'Roger the Negotiator' it refers to Dorothy, when we hear it again in 'The Show Must go on!' it refers to Angel.

One more thing. I couldn't figure how to fit this in there. About the lovely Ms. R. Dorothy Wayneright. I saw 'Dorothy Dorothy' for the first time when I was already well into S2 but after seeing it it's easy to see why Angel was over-compenstating so much in the Wayneright mansion (saying 'I'm just a human being' right under Dorothy's headlights and later teasing her in the car). This was back when Angel was still feeling secure about her standing with Roger but if I was Angel and the man I loved was living with with this beautiful little girl, android or not, I think I might feel the need to try to smack her down a few points in front the the aforementioned guy. Angel may have a complete set of great assests but Dorothy's android Lolita. Never underestimate Lolita.

'Kay I'm done now!


muchlove
sorry for ramblin' on!
-dork

• Attachment: dorothy hides.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by Dork I'll finish this later. I'm not done. I'm almost late for phychology!

Now that's ironic, late for phychology class due to typeing phychology of your own.
That's what makes Roger such a louse. He can get the attention of any woman he wants, but once he has their intrest he goes and screws it up by doing something like what he did with Dorothy. From said viewpoint, mabye it is a good thing that Angel never hooked up with Roger after all. She would've just been the lateist in a (long) line of women who have been exposed to the louse that is Roger Smith. Like in Act 7 only over a longer period of time and not haveing their lives endangered.

I don't know what Roger's problem is. Maybe he's just a commitment phobe?