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What is the significance of Dorothy being able to lie? Or I this something that will be answered tonight and it's best i dont know yet?

Well, I kinda thought her being able to lie is her trying to be more human. Not only is the lie she gives Norman in 'Hydra' unnessary. But she confesses to it immediently. Dorothy's like an emotional 4 year old. She doesn't completely understand why anyone would need to lie but she knows that it's part of being human so she just does it.

Quite an interesting little bit of character development for Dorothy.


anywho,
muchlove
-dork

I didn't get to finish my question.
( in the backround yells,"Go to Bed you little runts!)

Anyway...
She was obviously lying to Norman about Angel being there (how did she get in?) but I wonder if she were lying to Angel as well. Did what Angel do (or not do)really not matter to her? I bet it did.

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Originally posted by madrona I didn't get to finish my question. ( in the backround yells,"Go to Bed you little runts!) Anyway... She was obviously lying to Norman about Angel being there (how did she get in?) but I wonder if she were lying to Angel as well. Did what Angel do (or not do)really not matter to her? I bet it did.

Well, I don't entirely get what you're getting at. But if you mean Dorothy's comment "It's not important that I understand" I kinda got the impression that she didn't care (it didn't matter to her) why Angel did what she did, the fact is Angel didn't help her when she needed it. If anyone needed to understand it was Angel herself and maybe Roger. Dorothy doesn't seem too into excuses.



-dork

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Originally posted by madrona She was obviously lying to Norman about Angel being there (how did she get in?) but I wonder if she were lying to Angel as well. Did what Angel do (or not do)really not matter to her? I bet it did.

Angel has worked espionage for both Alex Rosewater and the Union, so she simply picked the lock on the mansion's doors.

Dorothy had no reason to lie when Angel just admitted that she could never steal Roger away.

Okay, I was just exploring some possibilities. I have to agree, Dorothy doesn't care for excuses.

Though, I liked the way Angel said " That's the kind of girl you are" instead of "Yeah, that's the way you're built"

Yeah, but I still like Angel. The femme fatale never wins any way. The temptation's there to trust her because, let's face it she's hot but she's trouble incarnate. She can't be made good and she'll only drag down with her any man who gets close to her. And even when she sees in the end that her side was wrong it'll be too late.

It's a great archetype.

I keep getting really tissed at Angel when she does these things but then I get over it. It's hard to stay tissed at such a wonderful character. Even if she is being mean to poor Dorothy.


-dork

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Originally posted by Dork Yeah, but I still like Angel. The femme fatale never wins any way. The temptation's there to trust her because, let's face it she's hot but she's trouble incarnate. She can't be made good and she'll only drag down with her any man who gets close to her. And even when she sees in the end that her side was wrong it'll be too late. It's a great archetype. I keep getting really tissed at Angel when she does these things but then I get over it. It's hard to stay tissed at such a wonderful character. Even if she is being mean to poor Dorothy. -dork

I agree, Dork. Angel is my fav character. She adds a lot of mystery to the series and at the same time provides a nice foil for Dorothy and a means for Roger to discover himself.

Dorothy has been suspicious/jealous of Angel since she showed up in Act 3, "Electric City." The evidence she's seen (the cigarette in Act 12, "Enemy Is Another Big" for example) suggests that Angel is seeing Roger on the sly. Then, when she is in danger, Angel stops Alan, but he easily distracts her by saying that Roger cares for Dorothy more than anything, confirming what Angel had said to Roger in jest. Then Angel funks it.

When Angel comes around to Smith Mansion and says that she likes Dorothy, Dorothy has no reason to think she's telling the truth. So she tells a lie to Norman to show that she can do so, too. At the end of the episode, she realizes that Angel is no threat to her, so she cuts short the intimate moment with Roger and is still brooding over her faux pas (not the lie, but her disbelieving Angel) in the next episode.

And notice that Roger now talks to Dorothy when he is planning. There is a sea change in their relationship over the last five episodes.

Pygmalion

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Originally posted by Mr. Peabody quote: Originally posted by madrona She was obviously lying to Norman about Angel being there (how did she get in?) but I wonder if she were lying to Angel as well. Did what Angel do (or not do)really not matter to her? I bet it did. Angel has worked espionage for both Alex Rosewater and the Union, so she simply picked the lock on the mansion's doors. Dorothy had no reason to lie when Angel just admitted that she could never steal Roger away.

She probably did it because she didn't want to have to explain her very awkward interaction with Angel to Norman. Later, in the next episode, imho, Dorothy feels guilty for lying since apparently robots are not supposed to lie, even if they can. That's the reason she doesn't resist. She feels guilty at "being different from Roger and from the machines" for having transgressed one of her fundamental rules of operation for no good reason.

Either that, or her memories are impelling her to let Beck's bots capture her.

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Originally posted by Pythagoras She probably did it because she didn't want to have to explain her very awkward interaction with Angel to Norman. Later, in the next episode, imho, Dorothy feels guilty for lying since apparently robots are not supposed to lie, even if they can. That's the reason she doesn't resist. She feels guilty at "being different from Roger and from the machines" for having transgressed one of her fundamental rules of operation for no good reason. Either that, or her memories are impelling her to let Beck's bots capture her.

You're theory that Dorothy allowed herself to be captured because she felt guilty over lying makes sense. I've thought Dorothy was trying to protect Roger and Norman, who were outnumbered and outgunned.

Twisted Memories is great, if not only for Norman's "sons of bitches!"

Yea, I too thought Dorothy went with the machines because she felt guilty for lying. Although I don't think robots can lie normally. If they could break that part of their programming than they could also break other parts of their programming, i.e. the rules of robotics. So if robots could kill, but they just usually choose not to then sometime in the last 40 years a robot would have killed, thus shooting to hell the general belief in Paradigm that they can't.

So Dorothy's either really unique or the rules that apply to robots (like Instro) do not apply also to androids like Dorothy, Roscoe Fitzgerald and

spoiler (highlight to read):

Big Ear

What did Dorothy mean when she said 'I am not like you Roger I will always have this same body and this same heart'?. I have a theory but I wanted to ask you guys because what I'm thinking is a bit crazy.


-dork

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Originally posted by Dork Yea, I too thought Dorothy went with the machines because she felt guilty for lying. Although I don't think robots can lie normally. If they could break that part of their programming than they could also break other parts of their programming, i.e. the rules of robotics. So if robots could kill, but they just usually choose not to then sometime in the last 40 years a robot would have killed, thus shooting to hell the general belief in Paradigm that they can't.

I think that it's more like in Star Trek where the androids have ethical programs that govern their actions. However, they also can override them on occasion.

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Originally posted by Pythagoras quote: Originally posted by Dork Yea, I too thought Dorothy went with the machines because she felt guilty for lying. Although I don't think robots can lie normally. If they could break that part of their programming than they could also break other parts of their programming, i.e. the rules of robotics. So if robots could kill, but they just usually choose not to then sometime in the last 40 years a robot would have killed, thus shooting to hell the general belief in Paradigm that they can't. I think that it's more like in Star Trek where the androids have ethical programs that govern their actions. However, they also can override them on occasion.

Alright, so if androids simply have ethical guildlines (which is what they'd be if they can over-ride them) then they (androids) are set up much like humans. We too have buit-in guildlines telling us that killing is wrong, wheather we get this guildline through our genetics or through our up-bring is pretty much a matter of oppinion.

Dorothy's programming seems a lot like a human's up-bring. The natural thing to do in any situation is to follow the habits of our up-bring (our views on racism, morality, good vs. evil, etc.). We CAN go againist this 'programming' with conscious effort, though it is a hard thing to do and we need to be motivated to the extreme to do it. Dorothy doesn't really lie until 'Hydra', she is not suffiently motivated to do so. But her jealousy for Angel and her desire to be more human/make Roger love her gives her the push she needs to do something only humans would.

She later thinks that while her heart was in the right place the ends did not justify the means and thus (going out on a limb here) she beings to doubt even her intentions (to get Roger to love her/become more human) which is part of the reason she lets the machines take her.

Anywho, you all knew that last part of course, I just like going through it step by step myself. Kinda helps me get more in tune with the characters.

I also noticed two odd wordings in the last part of 'Twisted Memories'. Roger tells Dorothy "As strong as you are you could break free!" not "you can break free". It's nice that they put it to a matter of choice.

And then there's another line from Roger "I won't let you get away!" and not "I won't let you take her". He's putting the responsibilty for Dorothy's capture on her and not the machines. It also gives a sense that Dorothy's almost the enemy in this, it's Dorothy Roger's fighting, not the machines. It's like she's just walking away from him.

Geez, I'm so glad the writers decided to slap some sense in to Roger over his and Dorothy's relationship before starting this thing with Dorothy's ethical dilema. Makes things so much nicer.


-dork

I'm going to explore my hypothesis too. It's not much different than Dork's. But I've been thinking about this all day.

Do you think that Dorothy has given in to destiny? I don't know if she is feeling guilty-I've got a problem with the whole guilt thing.
She understands that she has something that others need/want. She has been given these things from the very beginning-she doesn't know what it is exactly or what it's for but that it makes her different. A logical mind might conclude that if these "memories" were given to her, there was a reason. Therefore it is part of her reason for being, her destiny.
Roger yells at her to fight. That she could break free with her strength. He's not just talking about the scorpion. He means her life, her destiny. Her choice to be free. To stand out in the rain without an umbrella. He understands that Dorothy is more than just her programming.If she can lie, imagine what else she could do. But she's having a problem with it. Maybe it is guilt.

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Originally posted by Pythagoras She probably did it because she didn't want to have to explain her very awkward interaction with Angel to Norman. Later, in the next episode, imho, Dorothy feels guilty for lying since apparently robots are not supposed to lie, even if they can.

I disagree. I think Dorothy has high personal standards, which have little to do with being an android. Most of her behavior throughout the series consists of her establishing herself as a real person who is essentially a human woman.

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That's the reason she doesn't resist. She feels guilty at "being different from Roger and from the machines" for having transgressed one of her fundamental rules of operation for no good reason.

Why doesn't she try to escape from Eugene in MISSING CAT? Why doesn't she flee the Leviathan? Why doesn't she leave Ground Zero in DAY OF THE ADVENT? Why does she let her curiosity lead her into danger in STRIPES? She has a pattern of underreacting to danger that makes it dangerous to read a special motive into any single occurrance of it.

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Either that, or her memories are impelling her to let Beck's bots capture her.

They're not Beck's bots. Beck operates his own machinery. Beck ostentatiously has nothing to do with the bot attack. He goes out of his way to make sure that Roger sees him NOT operating the bots. It's his left-handed way of apologizing to Roger and letting him know that he should blame Alex, not Beck.

Eek...that was quite a somber mood they created for the Roger/Dorothy scene at the end of The Big Fight.

My only question is...what exactly did Roger mean when he said "Wait for me."

Either way, it was pretty romantic...in a creepy, no hope left kinda way.

Oh, that beautiful scene at the end of The Big Fight.
"wait for me..."
I found it so sweet, hopeless romantic that I am.

I think when Roger said those words it could have been his way of saying "don't worry. I'll come back. Wait here and I'll return."

Alan Gabriel in Big Duo?! So wrong! Get out of Schwarzy's chair you pervert!! Go hook yourself up to a toaster or something!!

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Why doesn't she try to escape from Eugene in MISSING CAT? Why doesn't she flee the Leviathan? Why doesn't she leave Ground Zero in DAY OF THE ADVENT? Why does she let her curiosity lead her into danger in STRIPES? She has a pattern of underreacting to danger that makes it dangerous to read a special motive into any single occurrance of it.

I think you're right to bring up those other moments where she didn't escape as well, ACT. For those, it would seem that curiousity played a role, plus a sense of destiny that she felt with the Leviathan. Remember, though, that she ran away from the archetype so she doesn't just stand around and watch all the time.

She explicitly tells Roger that it was wrong for her to lie to Norman which implies that she chose to do so against her ethical program. So she's definitely feeling guilty, esp. about lying about such a small thing like Angel visiting.

So if we combine all of these emotions together I think we can safely say that it was any one (or all) of the following which caused Dorothy to not resist: curiosity, shame, feeling of destiny. I think that perhaps she may also have been feeling depressed because everyone seeks after her as a special machine when that is the very opposite of what she wants to be perceived as.

You're right that Beck didn't make the bots, I was just calling them that because he must've had something to do with getting them going. They seem to belong to Paradigm Corp.