Discuss the Current Episode

Locke3 12-26-2003 09:02 PM
Am I right to assume that the grave Roger was standing right in front of was the grave of the human Dorothy? I thought it was for her.

As for her wearing black, I just assumed that Norman gave her the dress.
Penny Century 12-26-2003 09:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Locke3
Am I right to assume that the grave Roger was standing right in front of was the grave of the human Dorothy? I thought it was for her.


Well, now that you mention it, it's hard to assume. We only see the "-thy Wayne-" part of the name, so it's conceivable that it's Timothy's grave. However, the rest of the name is obscured by snow, and it's unlikely that the senior Wayneright's grave would be quite so settled within the time frame the episode seems to present.

It looks like a pretty old graveyard, too. I think we can infer that the grave belongs to the human Dorothy. Although one might wonder why Roger has returned the windup key to her rather than to her father.
YZEtc 12-26-2003 09:24 PM
One of the things that I've been wondering for a while is why the Englishman's voice-over as Big O's head is shown rising from the smelting pot was only used for a couple of episodes.
I liked seeing it, again; it recalls the magic I felt when I saw these early episodes for the first time.

It's obvious that Major Dastun's resentment of the Paradigm Military Police needing any of Big O's help runs as deep as the depth that the anchor chain which saved his ass penetrated into the pavement.

Ever wish that you could unwind after an afternoon's work in the very same spot where mortgages, interest rates, and other monetary concerns were once feverishly hashed over? - complete with the original decor?
Well, then.
All you have to do is live in a Bank.
Who does Roger think he's kidding?
Once the recollection of Dorothy's expression telling him he was going to protect her leaps into his mind, he's up from that comfy-looking Loan Officer's office chair, flips a manditory hourglass, and goes off to prop-up Big Ear's bar tab in exchange for information that will hopefully lead him to her.

Want to get Dorothy's attention double-quick?
Just have old man Tim Wayneright call for her while under distress.
If I were Roger, once I got the chance, I'd be askin' her, "Why the freakin' hell did you dis me like that?"
She just can't help it, I guess.
Anything to keep the old beatnik happy.

I wonder what the styling of Dorothy 1 is supposed to resemble.
Is it modeled after something?
Is the design meant to stand on it's own?
For some reason (color? antennae? claws?), she makes me say, lobster.
A lobster Megadeus with a big hole in it.
Isn't Beck breaking some kind of cardinal crook's rule about not pulling the same heist in the same spot with the same equipment on the same day?

Dorothy was well dressed, indeed, for her first time in Big O's cockpit.

Should it have come to Roger as any surprise that Dorothy would end up right back at the Smith Bank?
Saldano' dead.
Old man Wayneright's in the ground.
She's got no money.
And, they were both giving each other the eye just the day before at that factory/warehouse.
Norman's certainly delighted to have her under the roof, as pressing all of those raven-black suits by yourself has got to be a drag.
I have little doubt that Roger is, as well - though you won't see him admitting it any time soon.
And Dorothy?
She very well may have known that she was in like flint all along - debt or not.
R Trusedale 12-26-2003 09:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zopwx2
I'm tempted to think there wasn't a whole lot going on it episode one except a batman like character fighting in a kickass robot. Then after a couple episodes they decided to sit down and seriously decide what direction the show was going to go.


There's a cute little trick in this episode that may have been overlooked. Dorothy 1 at some point does a download into R. Dorothy. Her personaility changes. The tip off is Soldano. He's not just a senile old man. First he berates Roger for confusing the android with "his" daughter. Later, as he lay dying, he calls R. Dorothy his daughter, which she denies, since she is hiding.

He is responding to the Dorothy 1 personality. How he can detect it inside R. Dorothy, when nobody else can, is a mystery.

spoiler (highlight to read):
In one of the last episodes, Dorothy says that she is Dorothy 1!
BigPrime 12-26-2003 10:32 PM
Interesting theory, R Truesdale. The only problem I can think of with it is that, when Soldano died Dorothy 1 hadn't yet been seen. She made her appearence immediately after the shootout at the factory where Soldano died. Roger got Norman's call about a giant robot in West Dome #5 just as he and Dorothy sat down in the Griffon after pasting some of Beck's goons.

However, this doesn't change the fact that R. Dorothy and Dorothy 1 had some sort of exchange during the fight, one that could have included Dorothy 1 downloading her memories (or at least some of them) into R. Dorothy before Roger smashed her core memory to bits.

It's also interesting to note that R. Dorothy doesn't seem to reject this exchange the way she would later do with Archetype and Leviathan. THis could be due to the fact that she was essentially talking with her sister at the time, and not being mentally assaulted by insane megadeus' from Paradigms past.

Also, its kinda sad to think that inside of one day, R. Dorothy Wayneright (who was all of one year old at the time) lost her entire family. Her father, her father's partner in her construction (Soldano), and her (really) big sister, Dorothy 1. Frown
Wingnut 12-26-2003 10:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by BigPrime
Also, its kinda sad to think that inside of one day, R. Dorothy Wayneright (who was all of one year old at the time) lost her entire family. Her father, her father's partner in her construction (Soldano), and her (really) big sister, Dorothy 1. Frown
And all she got was a louse. (Though some say, as do I, that she gained the future love of her life.) But that still is a hefty trade.
Little Fau 12-29-2003 12:58 AM
Adult Swim did it again.

"It" being cutting off the end of episode 26.

My eyes, they burn.
StewieGriffin 12-29-2003 01:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Little Fau
Adult Swim did it again.

"It" being cutting off the end of episode 26.

My eyes, they burn.


Wait, wouldn't that mean that Adult Swim WANTS a third season of Big O? Just a thought... Confused
Little Fau 12-29-2003 01:12 AM
I think that this hypothetical third season will have to be really friggin' good to justify cutting up previously published material for it. Why don't they just ax ep 26 altogether and write one that fits whatever they're planning? It already has massive implications for the nature of the setting, cutting that last 30 seconds (which can potentially erase most of the 'problems' that the rest of the ep created) is almost trivial in comparison.
taaudoloran 12-29-2003 01:21 AM
Besides the usual rants about the b*stards who chop off the endings. I had a few thoughts go through my head as I watched Act 26 tonight.

1) At the beginning of the episode, that torn newspaper always gets me. It had a picture of Big O and Big Fau fighting before they were fighting. The article proclaimed, "The Big....Wins!" I think using English we can confidently fill in the blank as "The Big O Wins!" "The Big Fau Wins!" to me just doesn't fit grammatically. Plus, what Big Ear tells Roger...."Are you going to be the knight in shining armor? Rescue the maiden?" is cryptic. Is he referring to Angel or Dorothy? Is that a secret to the resets?

2) When Alex goes off the deep end with his arrogance, Big Fau plugs him up. Then Alex makes the statement that he was different than Schwarzwald and Alan who he felt were fake Domini. He then states that he is a true Dominus. That implies that Bigs only plug in when their Dominus loses control.
I feel that the relationship between Dominus and Big is the Big fighting for control. In a true Dominus, the control is even and so the plugs are not needed. In a Dominus who loses control, the Big takes over his whole being, thereby eliminating the check on the Big's power.
Notice it was when Alex stated that he gave his full self to Big Fau that the hourglass tilted and turned red. The balance was lost and Fau was in control.

3) When Roger was at the bottom of the ocean, he started his memory flashbacks. In one of those, it shows something that looks like Roger in Big O's cockpit but to me he looks quite dead and almost like a puppet whose strings have been cut. Very disjointed.
Is that where the previous Roger's met their end? At the bottom of the ocean and so this Roger was seeing the corpses of previous Roger's?

4) What choice did Roger make? The show seems to place a great deal of emphasis on the fact that he refused the plugs from Big O. Both Dorothy and Beck say somthing to the effect "Roger has made his decision." and treat it like it was the wrong one. Perhaps he is supposed to accept the plugs? Later in the Episode, he tells Angel that he CHOSE to lose his memories so that he can exsist in the present and the future. Is the plugs scene where he makes that choice? If he plugs into Big O, I would think that he would have access to all of Big O's memories and perhaps to the true memories of previous 40+ years. He rejects the plugs and therefore the memories.....

more to come I am sure.....

taaudoloran
evanASF27 12-29-2003 01:29 AM
Just because tonight is a great night to RANT....I want to say this



ADULT SWIM SHOULD BURNN!!!!!! GO SCHWARZWALD ON THEM AND BE PROUD!!!

VIVA LE UNION!!!
dr_malaki 12-29-2003 02:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by BigPrime
Interesting theory, R Truesdale. The only problem I can think of with it is that, when Soldano died Dorothy 1 hadn't yet been seen. She made her appearence immediately after the shootout at the factory where Soldano died. Roger got Norman's call about a giant robot in West Dome #5 just as he and Dorothy sat down in the Griffon after pasting some of Beck's goons.

However, this doesn't change the fact that R. Dorothy and Dorothy 1 had some sort of exchange during the fight, one that could have included Dorothy 1 downloading her memories (or at least some of them) into R. Dorothy before Roger smashed her core memory to bits.

It's also interesting to note that R. Dorothy doesn't seem to reject this exchange the way she would later do with Archetype and Leviathan. THis could be due to the fact that she was essentially talking with her sister at the time, and not being mentally assaulted by insane megadeus' from Paradigms past.

Also, its kinda sad to think that inside of one day, R. Dorothy Wayneright (who was all of one year old at the time) lost her entire family. Her father, her father's partner in her construction (Soldano), and her (really) big sister, Dorothy 1. Frown


Yeah, that *is* mighty sad. It bothered me too. Frown

Doc
PaintItBlack 12-29-2003 03:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by taaudoloran
1) At the beginning of the episode, that torn newspaper always gets me. It had a picture of Big O and Big Fau fighting before they were fighting. The article proclaimed, "The Big....Wins!" I think using English we can confidently fill in the blank as "The Big O Wins!" "The Big Fau Wins!" to me just doesn't fit grammatically. Plus, what Big Ear tells Roger...."Are you going to be the knight in shining armor? Rescue the maiden?" is cryptic. Is he referring to Angel or Dorothy? Is that a secret to the resets?

The newspaper being ripped where it is makes sense plotwise, so viewers wouldn't assume that either one Big or the other wins from the beginning of the episode; also the fact that what's missing is either O or Fau brings up the point that neither of them actually win, if anything the "winner" is Big Venus because she erases/resets everything.
When Big Ear says the line about Roger being the knight in shining armor, I assumed he was referring to Dorothy since he'd originally been on his way to rescue her memory circuits, but in terms of the ending the line could apply to either of them. As for it being related to the resets, if Roger wasn't there to negotiate with Angel/Big Venus, then the world would probably have started over in the same way as always, instead of with the adjustments Angel had made, so I suppose you could say that was his way of rescuing Angel or Paradigm...or something ^^;;

quote:
3) When Roger was at the bottom of the ocean, he started his memory flashbacks. In one of those, it shows something that looks like Roger in Big O's cockpit but to me he looks quite dead and almost like a puppet whose strings have been cut. Very disjointed.
Is that where the previous Roger's met their end? At the bottom of the ocean and so this Roger was seeing the corpses of previous Roger's?

Yeah, it looks to be a vision of some previous Roger's death, seeing as how he looks dead, is wearing different clothing, and also is strapped into Big O's dominus chair with some kind of harness. If Paradigm City is just a place that's regenerated every 40 years with the same events, then it would seem logical that the previous Rogers had met their end in this fashion - the current Roger, however, is saved by R. Dorothy and thus able to negotiate with Angel in the end. The strange thing about this vision to me is how the dead Roger and Big O's cockpit appear to be set up differently - Paradigm City being reset should just make everything happen in the same way as it had before, so shouldn't the dead Roger and shut down Big O look the same as the current version?

quote:
4) What choice did Roger make? The show seems to place a great deal of emphasis on the fact that he refused the plugs from Big O. Both Dorothy and Beck say somthing to the effect "Roger has made his decision." and treat it like it was the wrong one. Perhaps he is supposed to accept the plugs? Later in the Episode, he tells Angel that he CHOSE to lose his memories so that he can exsist in the present and the future. Is the plugs scene where he makes that choice? If he plugs into Big O, I would think that he would have access to all of Big O's memories and perhaps to the true memories of previous 40+ years. He rejects the plugs and therefore the memories.....

It seems that if Roger had accepted Big O's plugs, they would have become one being, and there would have been no risk of Roger dying - I think that's why Dorothy and Beck treat it like it was the wrong decision, because if Dorothy had not chosen to intervene, Roger would have died in the ocean like the previous Rogers seemed to do - which implies that Roger has always chosen not to combine with Big O/accept his data/submit to the Megadeus/whatever it really means to not get plugged in.
As for his rejection of the plugs being his lost memories, I don't know if that's the case, seeing as the plugs are still utilized when Dorothy plugs them into her memory drive - once that's done, Big O transforms into its final stage, and that seems to be the whole reason behind the plugs anyway.
robotnik 12-29-2003 11:49 AM
quote:
Plus, what Big Ear tells Roger...."Are you going to be the knight in shining armor? Rescue the maiden?" is cryptic. Is he referring to Angel or Dorothy? Is that a secret to the resets?


Don't know if he's referring to Dorothy or Angel in episode 26, but IIRC in episode 2, Big Ear says something similar to Roger RE: finding/rescuing Dorothy.

quote:
The strange thing about this vision to me is how the dead Roger and Big O's cockpit appear to be set up differently - Paradigm City being reset should just make everything happen in the same way as it had before, so shouldn't the dead Roger and shut down Big O look the same as the current version?


It seems that each time Paradigm is reset, things are slightly different: some stuff carries over from the previous run ("false" memories, buried megadeuses, etc.), and some events play out differently (no megadeus war this time around, Roger survives, etc.) It's like a sloppily-run experiment: no one cleans up properly from the previous run-through, and so each test yields very different results.

quote:
It seems that if Roger had accepted Big O's plugs, they would have become one being, and there would have been no risk of Roger dying - I think that's why Dorothy and Beck treat it like it was the wrong decision, because if Dorothy had not chosen to intervene, Roger would have died in the ocean like the previous Rogers seemed to do - which implies that Roger has always chosen not to combine with Big O/accept his data/submit to the Megadeus/whatever it really means to not get plugged in.


If Roger had plugged in, he could not have "negotiated" with Angel/Big Venus at the end. Whether Dorothy and Beck treat that as a wrong decision is debatable - there's no emotion in Dorothy's line "Roger Smith has made his decision."

My assumption was that Beck "remembered" how to activate Big O's "final stage" and told Dorothy. Roger would not have been able to do so on his own anyway.
Zopwx2 12-29-2003 08:28 PM
They cut out the last scene of act 26 again on best of AS
Big Money 12-29-2003 09:46 PM
Does anyone else wonder about the Gordon/Roger picture?

Exibit A: That is, in fact, Gordon and Roger, only Gordon is younger, a little older than Alex.

Exibit B: The domes are being constructed in the background, reinforcing the fact that this is not a recent picture.

Exibit C: The picture Roger is the same as present day Roger.

Exibit D: The two men are shaking hands, signifying (sp...) a deal.

Exibit E: The picture has been torn in half, I don't want to assume what this means.

Any thoughts on this? Assuming that the reset starts off at "40 years ago," this is either from the current reset, or the reset before, and Roger is obviously not as old as Gordan.And don't nobody say "Things are different in each reset." That's cheating.

Assuming there is a reset... Dun Dun Duuuuun! *lightning flashes*
X Prime 12-29-2003 09:47 PM
Supposedly Roger doesn't age.
R Trusedale 12-29-2003 10:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by BigPrime
Interesting theory, R Truesdale. The only problem I can think of with it is that, when Soldano died Dorothy 1 hadn't yet been seen. She made her appearence immediately after the shootout at the factory where Soldano died. Roger got Norman's call about a giant robot in West Dome #5 just as he and Dorothy sat down in the Griffon after pasting some of Beck's goons.

However, this doesn't change the fact that R. Dorothy and Dorothy 1 had some sort of exchange during the fight, one that could have included Dorothy 1 downloading her memories (or at least some of them) into R. Dorothy before Roger smashed her core memory to bits.

It's also interesting to note that R. Dorothy doesn't seem to reject this exchange the way she would later do with Archetype and Leviathan. THis could be due to the fact that she was essentially talking with her sister at the time, and not being mentally assaulted by insane megadeus' from Paradigms past.

Also, its kinda sad to think that inside of one day, R. Dorothy Wayneright (who was all of one year old at the time) lost her entire family. Her father, her father's partner in her construction (Soldano), and her (really) big sister, Dorothy 1. Frown


You're assuming the transfer first took place during the fight. One thing about these cute tricks in Big O is the things that take place off screen, like Beck telling Dorothy how to use the final attack in episode 26. And Dorothy does say she is Dorothy 1 somewhere in the last episodes, haven't hunted it down yet though.
R Trusedale 12-29-2003 10:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Big Money
Does anyone else wonder about the Gordon/Roger picture?

Exibit A: That is, in fact, Gordon and Roger, only Gordon is younger, a little older than Alex.

Exibit B: The domes are being constructed in the background, reinforcing the fact that this is not a recent picture.

Exibit C: The picture Roger is the same as present day Roger.

Exibit D: The two men are shaking hands, signifying (sp...) a deal.

Exibit E: The picture has been torn in half, I don't want to assume what this means.

Any thoughts on this? Assuming that the reset starts off at "40 years ago," this is either from the current reset, or the reset before, and Roger is obviously not as old as Gordan.And don't nobody say "Things are different in each reset." That's cheating.

Assuming there is a reset... Dun Dun Duuuuun! *lightning flashes*


Its definitely our Roger in the picture. The deal was that Roger agreed to Negotiate with the Director of the Show. But then he forgot about it. However in his fall into the depths he appears to recover signficant chunks of past lives. Presumably one of the things he recovered was the memory of the deal, since he goes on to Negotiate, possibly successfully.
Pythagoras 12-29-2003 10:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Big Money
Does anyone else wonder about the Gordon/Roger picture?

Exibit A: That is, in fact, Gordon and Roger, only Gordon is younger, a little older than Alex.

Exibit B: The domes are being constructed in the background, reinforcing the fact that this is not a recent picture.

Exibit C: The picture Roger is the same as present day Roger.

Exibit D: The two men are shaking hands, signifying (sp...) a deal.

Exibit E: The picture has been torn in half, I don't want to assume what this means.

Any thoughts on this? Assuming that the reset starts off at "40 years ago," this is either from the current reset, or the reset before, and Roger is obviously not as old as Gordan.And don't nobody say "Things are different in each reset." That's cheating.

Assuming there is a reset... Dun Dun Duuuuun! *lightning flashes*



This supports my theory that Gordon was in charge of the last reset and not Angel. That Roger in the picture is the Roger from a previous cycle who was hired by Gordon to negotiate with the next person who would be given the director's power...Angel. But because of the resetting, neither Gordon, nor Roger, nor Angel remembered any of these things until the very end