Discuss the Current Episode

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Originally posted by Penny Century quote: Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato It's important not to confuse a discussion of "what we were thinking about when we started working on the show" with "what we decided in the end." Especially for a series that at first only existed as a way to sell a toy robot. That line about how it doesn't matter how you came into being but how you lived your life must've had an interesting resonance for the show's creators.

I wonder if, at Sunrise, they figure they overshot the mark and appealed to an audience that was too old to buy their toys. Once you overshoot the age bracket and appeal to people who no longer buy toys, you have to get much stronger viewership numbers to make up for the lost toy revenues. I must have bought a couple of hundred bucks worth of Power Rangers toys for my oldest son when he was little. It's hard to get that kind of money out of older viewers.

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Originally posted by Penny Century quote: Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato It's important not to confuse a discussion of "what we were thinking about when we started working on the show" with "what we decided in the end." Especially for a series that at first only existed as a way to sell a toy robot. That line about how it doesn't matter how you came into being but how you lived your life must've had an interesting resonance for the show's creators.

And I was very disappointed at the merchandising that was done for the show. The only toys I know of released were the Big O (with Roger and Dorothy) and Big Duo (with Roger and Angel). For a series with different robots and monsters out the wazoo, and plenty of interesting characters, what kind of a marketing plan was that? Where's my Schwarzwald figure, that you squeeze and says interesting things like "You're a corrupt dog on the city's leash!" or "One of the Bigs has got to go!" Where are the Archtype and Beck Victory Deluxe toys?? If Sunrise had done a great job on toy marketing it could have helped the series succeed. It really seems they put little if any effort into the marketing aspect of Big O. Sheeeesh - Reboot had a better selection of toys, and I had thought they were skimpy...

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato I wonder if, at Sunrise, they figure they overshot the mark and appealed to an audience that was too old to buy their toys. Once you overshoot the age bracket and appeal to people who no longer buy toys, you have to get much stronger viewership numbers to make up for the lost toy revenues. I must have bought a couple of hundred bucks worth of Power Rangers toys for my oldest son when he was little. It's hard to get that kind of money out of older viewers.

You have a very good point. I suddenly realize the strangeness of having a young son, with his Schwarzwald figure, going around calling everyone a 'corrupt dog' and a young daughter with a Dorothy figure going around calling everyone a "louse"... Better than them listening to the average Friends episode, but still a bit odd.

I want a Normal with pistols figure that says "Sons of bitches"...

And Bentar don't forget a Big O action Figure that can fire the final stage attack too!
*people stare at her*
what?! WHAT?! I CAN DREAM CAN I?!

or faces of the chracter bean bag chairs! i simply luv bean bag chairs!
*imagination takes over*
*Scene is in her bedroom. a nice warm summers day, crisp and cool, windy. windows are open to let fresh air in. gets prepare to smash alen face on bean bag*
DIE ALEN! *smashes into alen bean bag chair* ahhh that feels nice. *grabs a big plate of vinilla wafers and a huge cup of ice cold lemonade. reads Big O manga and jurassic park novels *

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Originally posted by Narsham quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras I'm not in the mood to go finding Bible cites to disprove you, Narsham, but it's said repeatedly in the Bible that Lucifer was a fallen angel. Of course, since angels are believed to have wings, how could they fall w/o having their wings cut? Do you really want to discuss the physics of angel flight? Clearly, angels fly because God allows them to fly. So if God says an angel can't fly, the angel can't fly. In any event, the fall from heaven was a figural fall. The Fall of mankind (Garden of Eden story) doesn't involve Adam and Eve sliding down a cliff. The cosmology of the early church places Hell at the center of the Earth, as far away from Heaven as it is possible to get, so in that respect the fall of the angels was made literal. But if you try applying that model to the Big O world, you end up with Alex Rosewater = God being exactly as accurate as Big Venus/Lucifer = Satan. Plus, how do you justify and explain the wings we see in Episode 26? Narsham

Well, I don't believe in the whole mess, anyway. But, the idea of angels having wings actually isn't in any scriptures that I've ever seen. The idea was thought up by people who couldn't grasp the idea that if God is omnipotent, he could allow anything to fly without wings. In the popular mythology (on which the authors are basing their ideas), people clearly believe that angels have wings. Therefore, an angel who has fallen must have had to lose its wings.

Does this mean that the allusion is supposed to be completely 1:1? Of course not. I think, though, that Angel herself is good but that perhaps she has been used by Big Venus which is evil (and called Lucifer, the previous name of Satan).

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Originally posted by Bentar I want a Norman with pistols figure that says "Sons of bitches"...

Said figure would also come with adjustable arms to hold the accessory heavy machine with ammo belt as well to reenact the rooftop scene in Missing Cat. (Eugine Grant V/TOL jet/hovercraft and other figures sold seperately. *batteries not included)

Another random obeservation is in the episode with the robot detective, they make it clear that asimov's rules apply, i.e. robots can't harm humans, yet Dorothy beats on Beck's minions twice. Once when they're threatening her father, and again in Greatest villian, with her bike. I think this may be another indication of Dorothy gaining her "humanity." She loved her father, and so fought to protect him, and likewise with Roger.
A thing that may throw a wrench in this theory is Instro. He also attacks a human, though it could be argued that it was the influence of the giant weapon, or that Instro has gained his "humanity" too.
R*D and her sister also attacked Roger, but with an assassin bot it can be assumed that that was skipped in the programming.

Instro only threw Roger back, he obviously didn't hurt him.

Plus, like Roger said: "He never thought of you like that (As a weapon)! If he had, he wouldn't have made you so human!"

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Originally posted by Tab Another random obeservation is in the episode with the robot detective, they make it clear that asimov's rules apply, i.e. robots can't harm humans, yet Dorothy beats on Beck's minions twice.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but it's one thing to say that robots are supposed to be incapable of hurting humans, and it's quite another to say that Asimov's Laws of Robotics apply.

The Laws of Robotics are totally bogus and completely unworkable, and as such have provided lots of scope for follow-on stories, where Asimov or others would find yet another way in which they were unworkable, and explore the horrific consequences of this new failure mode. It became something of a cottage industry.

Anyway, as far as I know, no one has ever written any robot literature in which the robots who "were incapable of killing humans" did not, in fact, kill humans all the time!

Nothing observed in this episode, save that Roger should have backed off his narration after the profound scene at the end. The music worked perfectly with the shedding of Dastun's tears, and it would have been nice to drag the feeling out awhile longer than have Roger butt in by watching the entire thing.

I love the surly look on Angel's face when Alex insults the 'forigners'. One thing I had forgotten (or simply failed to ever notice?) - Sybil saying "You pathetic Paradigm lapdog...". Schwarzwald and Sybil must have taken the same "Best Lines to Antagonize Heros With" class. I wonder if she got it from Schwarzwald, or whether she and Schwarzwald picked it up from the same place? Or was it just a 'writing' coinsidence?

Young Dan and Sybil in the movie theater - really nice ending.

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Originally posted by X Prime Instro only threw Roger back, he obviously didn't hurt him. Plus, like Roger said: "He never thought of you like that (As a weapon)! If he had, he wouldn't have made you so human!"

so taking a giant robot/thing to destroy a city doesn't count as harming humans?

I'm sorry, but I just can't get into this episode.
It just seems so much that the writers/producers/janitors for the production studio wanted to relay some kinda' WW2-era, romantic, tragic, lovey-dovey mystery that ends on a touching note.
It didn't work for me.
For me, the highlight was hearing the sexy voice of Ms. Rowan as she breathes her last breath while being held in Dastun's arms.
Other than that...eh.
In my head, it simply seems like they copied some old black-and-white movie starring Humphrey Bogart and...err...whoever he would have starred with back then.
I'd even say that it fits a bit awkwardly into the episode list, sorta' just popping-up out of nowhere, playing itself out, and then lying back down and disappearing 25-or-so minutes later.
And where the hell is Dorothy?
Unexcusable.
On top of all that, I don't necessarily want Dastun in the lead role; that's Roger's job.
I get enough of that big, throbbing vein as it is.
Err...wait.
That didn't sound too good...

Ooohh.
Those eyes of Angel just after Alex insulted "those pathetic foreigners" looks like she wanted to scratch his eyes out.

I wonder exactly where that giant, walikng bomb robot came from.
Alex?
Another group?
Did I miss it because I was making my coffee?, and don't care to press the REWIND button?

Don't feel bad about what you did, Dastun.
It had to be done; she was aiming a radio control device at you.

Hey.
Somebody tell Roger to put a coat on, for cryin' out loud.
I mean: It is snowing out, after all.

Yes.
I really have to say that I'm glad this episode has passed like the wind after one has eaten a whole can of beans.
Bring on #11, #12, and #13, puuuh-leeeeese!
Now, that's a potent combination.

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Originally posted by Bentar I love the surly look on Angel's face when Alex insults the 'forigners'. One thing I had forgotten (or simply failed to ever notice?) - Sybil saying "You pathetic Paradigm lapdog...". Schwarzwald and Sybil must have taken the same "Best Lines to Antagonize Heros With" class. I wonder if she got it from Schwarzwald, or whether she and Schwarzwald picked it up from the same place? Or was it just a 'writing' coinsidence? Young Dan and Sybil in the movie theater - really nice ending.

That just make all the more tie-ins with who is really with the Union aka forigeners. Mabye the Paradigm lapdog thing was some sort of propaganda campaign slogan or something. That look of Angel's. Ooh, to quote Vash the Stampede in episode 2 of Trigun " *snort* Scarey!!!" If looks could kill Alex would've dropped dead on the spot.

Cynical much, YZEtc? Even the secondary characters need primary focus in an episode now and then.


Edit: Did anyone else notice the son of the police officer that was killed at the funeral, the one that drove Dastun to the hearing? JFK jr. moment there.

Ahh, "Winter Night Phantom," my favorite "Big O" episode. Here's where the show starts getting interesting. Basically all of the motifs from the second season are introduced here on top of a fantastic film noir detective flick. It's amazing what the writers were able to pack into just 22 minutes.

YZEtc, you dismiss the genre but I'd urge you to think again. There are many worthwhile themes here: destiny, the nature of memories in Paradigm, love at first sight, the predictive power of dreams, star-crossed love, friendship, the power of language, on and on. "Winter Night Phantom" is both thought-provoking and at the same time, touching. Pure tragic gold. Far and away the best-written episode of "Big O."

I thought the idea of having the bombs delivered in a harmless-looking toy robot was a great touch on the director's part. Then, having a giant version of the same bot was nice, too.

For those who haven't seen the later episodes, keep an eye out for the red balloons and their significance.

My only quibble was that Sybil Rowan (whom Roger, clueless as usual, seems to believe is actually her daughter) speaks rather garbled French until the very end when she said it correctly. As a fluent speaker of the language, I couldn't understand her words until the very end, the pronunciation was so terrible.

WINTER NIGHT PHANTOM

The epidsode that got me hooked into Big O, it was good then, still good today, one of my favorite Anime epidsode along with "Hard Luck Woman"

it kinda sucks that season 2 didnt have the same noir feel as season 1, but it was too fast paced most of the time

maybe season 3...

so i guess the union were those people Gordon Rosewater told to get the hell out...

*shrugs*

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Originally posted by Pythagoras I thought the idea of having the bombs delivered in a harmless-looking toy robot was a great touch on the director's part. Then, having a giant version of the same bot was nice, too.

Also a marvellous way to demonstrate literally what we see in a less direct way throughout the show--the destructiveness inherent in the megadeus.

In at least some respects, every single megadeus we see in the series is a walking disaster waiting to happen.

One of the abiding questions of the series is whether all of them will inevitably "go off," or whether it's possible to protect without also destroying.

If you see the megadeus as (in some respects) congruent to the human unconscious, then that same question applies to us humans.

Are we all beasts or killing machines? Does human aspiration and ambition necessarily lead to destruction? And conversely, can the negatives inherent in destruction be redeemed by circumstance?

Dastun's choice in Winter Night Phantom sums it all up more neatly than I can here. Was killing in order to protect others justified? Is redemption possible?

Narsham

I agree Narsham. Some other things I like about 'Winter Night Phantom" is the fact that it exposes the fact that not only is the love of Roger and Angel and Roger and Dorothy doomed because of their various loyalties, the friendship of Roger and Dastun will likely never fully be realized since both have different loyalties. Also, we see again (in addition to earlier with the finished wine, Dastun's earlier suspicion of Roger in the kidnapping case), that despite their friendship, there are many things that both do not know about each other.

One more thing: as cheesy as the music of "And Forever..." is, its lyrics are quite appropriate for "Winter Night Phantom."

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Originally posted by YZEtc I'm sorry, but I just can't get into this episode. It just seems so much that the writers/producers/janitors for the production studio wanted to relay some kinda' WW2-era, romantic, tragic, lovey-dovey mystery that ends on a touching note. It didn't work for me. For me, the highlight was hearing the sexy voice of Ms. Rowan as she breathes her last breath while being held in Dastun's arms. Other than that...eh. In my head, it simply seems like they copied some old black-and-white movie starring Humphrey Bogart and...err...whoever he would have starred with back then. I'd even say that it fits a bit awkwardly into the episode list, sorta' just popping-up out of nowhere, playing itself out, and then lying back down and disappearing 25-or-so minutes later. And where the hell is Dorothy? Unexcusable. On top of all that, I don't necessarily want Dastun in the lead role; that's Roger's job. I get enough of that big, throbbing vein as it is. Err...wait. That didn't sound too good... Ooohh. Those eyes of Angel just after Alex insulted "those pathetic foreigners" looks like she wanted to scratch his eyes out. I wonder exactly where that giant, walikng bomb robot came from. Alex? Another group? Did I miss it because I was making my coffee?, and don't care to press the REWIND button? Don't feel bad about what you did, Dastun. It had to be done; she was aiming a radio control device at you. Hey. Somebody tell Roger to put a coat on, for cryin' out loud. I mean: It is snowing out, after all. Yes. I really have to say that I'm glad this episode has passed like the wind after one has eaten a whole can of beans. Bring on #11, #12, and #13, puuuh-leeeeese! Now, that's a potent combination.

This is where I disagree, Winter Night Phantom is one of those episodes that define the show. Its great entertainment.

right off the bat, dastun kicks ass, he is my second favorite character next to Schwarzwald. The whole thing about the church, and the rookie cop

spoiler (highlight to read):

dying

, great stuff. The whole detective thing, loved it. And we got a well needed break from roger.

Fun to just watch, but it also starts to poke at the giant bloated corpse of the mystery of 40 years ago.

Thinking about it, it occurs to me the whole Sybil Rowan thing and the events of Winter Night Phantom could partly be why Dautsun is so reluctant to apprehend Angel later on.

Think of the similarities. They're both beautiful blonde women who are wanted by Paradigm due to their loyalties and affiliations with another group. The only difference is that Angel hasn't blown anyone up as far as he knows. It's possible that subconsciously at least Dautsun could see Angel as a second chance, a redeemable Sybil Rowan.

Or maybe I've just had too much sugar and caffine.

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Originally posted by Big Ben Thinking about it, it occurs to me the whole Sybil Rowan thing and the events of Winter Night Phantom could partly be why Dautsun is so reluctant to apprehend Angel later on. Think of the similarities. They're both beautiful blonde women who are wanted by Paradigm due to their loyalties and affiliations with another group. The only difference is that Angel hasn't blown anyone up as far as he knows. It's possible that subconsciously at least Dautsun could see Angel as a second chance, a redeemable Sybil Rowan. Or maybe I've just had too much sugar and caffine.

That plus he notices right away that she has strong ties to both Roger and Dorothy. Therefore if Roger and Dorothy trust her (to a point of course) than why shouldn't he give her a chance. Not to mention Dastun's overall sence of justice.