Why I would pick Dorothy over Angel?

The show approaches the question of "What does it mean to be 'human'"? from a variety of angles. It's clear that the show's creators consider Dorothy, Instro, Angel, etc. to be real people who deserve to be treated as real people.

We know from BECK COMES BACK that Dorothy doesn't consider the idea of her and Roger being lovers to be "preposterous." Angel is bitter about the concept in STRIPES, but in HYDRA she apologizes to Dorothy and vanishes, leaving the field clear for her.

So it seems that the concept is not TOO far-fetched for Dorothy, Beck, or Angel, and even Roger's attitude seems to swing due Dorothy after a while.

Since we live in a world without androids that can pass for human, cyclic Events, and other things that would shape our attitudes, we should consider the opinions of those Paradigm folks whose opinions we trust, in addition to our own culturally blinkered reactions.

As for Tony's alleged analysis of Angel's character: build a case from the evidence, dude, not your inclinations! For part of the show, Angel PRETENDS to be the person you believe her to be, but her act becomes less and less convincing as the show proceeds.

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Originally posted by Tony quote: Originally posted by Tifaria Angel never tried to take Roger from Dorothy, because Roger hadn't made up his mind yet. Once she realized he wanted Dorothy and not her, she gave up. You can't take someone away when they don't belong to anyone yet. In her mind, it was preposterous that Roger could be in love with an android; she never saw Dorothy as competition. When she realized that it was true, she didn't try to fight back and change Roger's mind. She just went on alone in the rain. Roger was Dorothy's from very early on (I suspect from "Beck is Back"). Then again, I believe Angel was in denial until "Strips". Why else would she accuse Roger of being in love with an "unsufferable android"? She had an idea who he belong to.

If he was hers from so early on, why did he make a (very clumsy) move on Angel in "Stripes"? Because he wasn't sure until that very moment. Even Roger found the idea of him and Dorothy having a relationship to be preposterous! It wasn't until he found himself confronted with the possibility of choosing Angel instead that he realized he had wanted Dorothy all along.

Angel accused him of being in love with an "insufferable android" because he suddenly chickened out when he started to kiss her. The only logical explanation for it was that he was in love with someone else-- and who else besides Angel could it have been? The answer would have to be Dorothy, and yes, Angel was in denial about it until "Stripes", but so was Roger!

I’m sorry, but I get really irritated when people insist on portraying Angel as this catty, manipulative tramp. Maybe she gave that impression in season one, but to me, it becomes painfully obvious by the end of the series that she is NOT that person. It was part of her mission-- you know, the one she abandoned for a certain Negotiator. And even when he rejected her, she didn’t go crawling back to the Union in fury-- she just went on her way. It breaks my heart that she ends up alone, but she doesn’t try to do anything about it. She accepts it. I have nothing against Roger and Dorothy-- I know they belong together, and I like them together. But I'm also very fond of Angel, and I get more than a little irritated when people only take into consideration who she was at the beginning of the series and ignore how much she changed by the end.

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Originally posted by Tony quote: Originally posted by Almasy quote: Originally posted by Tony I don't mind the statements from non-believers. As far as I'm concerned, Dorothy is a real woman. She has feelings, emotions, thoughts [...]. She has shown Happiness [...], Sadness [...], Fear [...]. Those who say Dorothy isn't a real human, they're right. But, she is a living being. Animals, such as all of our beloved pets, also show signs of happiness, sadness, fear, anger, etc. But even though we love them, we don't have relationships with our pets, do we? Why not? Because they are simply not the same species. A dog is not a human, just as Dorothy is not a human. By all means, though, I'm quite sure that there is no doubt in anyones mind that Dorothy is a living being...but then again, there is no doubt that cats and dogs are also living beings. I think you can see where I'm going with this... Let's view the other side of the coin. What makes Dorothy less human than a sterile person? What would be the difference?

What makes her less human than a sterile person? Well, let's see: she's full of wires and made of metal, most noticeably. She has a light that shines from her forehead—"That's practical and useful," you might say—"Entirely inhuman," I say. The fact is there is nothing human about Dorothy aside from her image and the emotions she has been programmed to feel. She's just an advanced computer that's built to look like a woman. In fact, as Roger points out, most of the "human" things we see Dorothy doing (pretending to drink coffee, etc.) are just mere reflections and imitations of real humans.

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Originally posted by Almasy quote: Originally posted by Tony quote: Originally posted by Almasy quote: Originally posted by Tony I don't mind the statements from non-believers. As far as I'm concerned, Dorothy is a real woman. She has feelings, emotions, thoughts [...]. She has shown Happiness [...], Sadness [...], Fear [...]. Those who say Dorothy isn't a real human, they're right. But, she is a living being. Animals, such as all of our beloved pets, also show signs of happiness, sadness, fear, anger, etc. But even though we love them, we don't have relationships with our pets, do we? Why not? Because they are simply not the same species. A dog is not a human, just as Dorothy is not a human. By all means, though, I'm quite sure that there is no doubt in anyones mind that Dorothy is a living being...but then again, there is no doubt that cats and dogs are also living beings. I think you can see where I'm going with this... Let's view the other side of the coin. What makes Dorothy less human than a sterile person? What would be the difference? What makes her less human than a sterile person? Well, let's see: she's full of wires and made of metal, most noticeably. She has a light that shines from her forehead—"That's practical and useful," you might say—"Entirely inhuman," I say. The fact is there is nothing human about Dorothy aside from her image and the emotions she has been programmed to feel. She's just an advanced computer that's built to look like a woman. In fact, as Roger points out, most of the "human" things we see Dorothy doing (pretending to drink coffee, etc.) are just mere reflections and imitations of real humans.

Close, but no cigar. You see, the wires in her body act exactly the same way our nervous system. If a person had a prosthetic arm (made of plastic and metal), does that make the person less human? If you have a synthetic heart, would that make you a heartless non-human? No, it just means you have something synthetic organ as a replacement to its organic equivalent. Her programming isn't anything more complex than ours (instinct, etiquette, manners...). As you can tell in medical field, humans are becoming more synthetic everyday.

As for Roger's comments about her not being human, I think that has been resolved when Roger apologized for his ill-proper conduct during "Missing Cat". Synthetic Humans may not be organic, but they are human nonetheless.

P.S. As for her cerebral drive, it is nothing more than an elaborate portable DVD player that some Americans carry around while traveling. Nothing more.

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Originally posted by Tony quote: Originally posted by Almasy quote: Originally posted by Tony quote: Originally posted by Almasy quote: Originally posted by Tony I don't mind the statements from non-believers. As far as I'm concerned, Dorothy is a real woman. She has feelings, emotions, thoughts [...]. She has shown Happiness [...], Sadness [...], Fear [...]. Those who say Dorothy isn't a real human, they're right. But, she is a living being. Animals, such as all of our beloved pets, also show signs of happiness, sadness, fear, anger, etc. But even though we love them, we don't have relationships with our pets, do we? Why not? Because they are simply not the same species. A dog is not a human, just as Dorothy is not a human. By all means, though, I'm quite sure that there is no doubt in anyones mind that Dorothy is a living being...but then again, there is no doubt that cats and dogs are also living beings. I think you can see where I'm going with this... Let's view the other side of the coin. What makes Dorothy less human than a sterile person? What would be the difference? What makes her less human than a sterile person? Well, let's see: she's full of wires and made of metal, most noticeably. She has a light that shines from her forehead—"That's practical and useful," you might say—"Entirely inhuman," I say. The fact is there is nothing human about Dorothy aside from her image and the emotions she has been programmed to feel. She's just an advanced computer that's built to look like a woman. In fact, as Roger points out, most of the "human" things we see Dorothy doing (pretending to drink coffee, etc.) are just mere reflections and imitations of real humans. ...the wires in her body act exactly the same way our nervous system. If a person had a prosthetic arm [...], does that make the person less human? If you have a synthetic heart, would that make you a heartless non-human? No, it just means you have something synthetic organ as a replacement to its organic equivalent.

Ooh. You make some good points, and now I can see where you're coming from! ^_^

Don't get me wrong, though, I don't have anything against Dorothy. It's just that if I was hypothetically going to have a relationship with either Dorothy or Angel, I would probably pick Angel. It kind of creeps me out a bit thinking that Dorothy was made, and Angel is more my type, anyway.

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Originally posted by Tifaria quote: Originally posted by Tony It all boils down to what you want. I want a girl with a great heart, dedication, selfless and kind. Angel isn't any of these things. She lacks heart, since she did try to take Roger from Dorothy. She lacks dedication, since she betrayed just about everyone. She is anything by selfless and kind, I believe the first two examples illustrate that. 'Scuse me while I play rabid Angel fan/Devil's Advocate here. Angel never tried to take Roger from Dorothy, because Roger hadn't made up his mind yet. Once she realized he wanted Dorothy and not her, she gave up. You can't take someone away when they don't belong to anyone yet. In her mind, it was preposterous that Roger could be in love with an android; she never saw Dorothy as competition. When she realized that it was true, she didn't try to fight back and change Roger's mind. She just went on alone in the rain. The lack of dedication I can see, since she did betray the Union.. but is that really such a bad thing? She essentially gave them up in order to help Roger. Would you rather she had stuck with them and helped destroy the city?

Alrighty, time for me to get back into the fray due to some people's skewed views on this whole topic. Tifaria...mad props to you for your views. Im playing devil's advocate as well, and supporting Angel, just because I prefer her over Dorothy as well. Anyway...here goes:

Dorothy never had Roger, as Tifaria stated. Dorothy may have made an assumption that Roger was her caregiver, and he did take up that role. Over time, a relationship couldve, and can prosper, but it was never there from the onset.

Angel never tried to "take Roger from Dorothy." If I do recall, there was never a "he's mine" back and forth going on. Angel saw something she liked, and went after it...rightful to do so considering Dorothy and Roger were not involved.

"It all boils down to what you want. I want a girl with a great heart, dedication, selfless and kind. Angel isn't any of these things. She lacks heart, since she did try to take Roger from Dorothy. She lacks dedication, since she betrayed just about everyone. She is anything by selfless and kind, I believe the first two examples illustrate that."

I can agree with the first and second sentence in that statement. Everything else, I totally disagree with. Women have different personalities, all of them do. Two women can have great hearts, dedication, selflessness and kindness. Both women can express or show those things in different ways. Angel showed all of those things when she decided to help Roger. She showed compassion for his work and for his feelings despite her coming to the understanding of where Dorothy fits in his life. To be honest, someone who comes to a realization and can decide to change for the better deserves respect and credit for seeing the errors in their ways. Angel definitely commandeers that at a minimum.

On a side note, Angel did "betray" her original cause, the Union. But who says that is a bad thing. She stood up for people's rights and free will by aiding Roger in his quest for a successful negotiation. If you ask me...that sounds like all heart to me; putting others in front of yourself.

I'd argue that Angel didn't betray her cause, either. Vera did. Angel was not happy with the Union's use of murder, and never once hinted that "burning zis city to ze ground" was a good idea.

There's some evidence that the other Union operatives were also in the dark about Vera's destructive plans. After all, one of the agents we saw rounded up by the police had a pregnant wife living with him in Paradigm.

A lot of the preference between the two women comes down to whether you like the quiet ones or the loud ones. Or, if it matters that much to you, whether you prefer buckets of bolts or meatbags.

I think we are totally ignoring the fact Roger isn’t very expressive when it comes to discussing emotions. During “Underground Terror”, he ridiculed himself for feeling terror “absurd emotion”. In a manner of speaking, he desires to be as detached from emotion with the same enthusiasm as Dorothy wanting to express them.

So, will he tell Angel or Dorothy that he is theirs or that he loves them. Not a chance. It’s not his way. He express his love through action. “Missing Cat” was a prime example of this. Would anyone pay the entire “Military Police annual budget” (quote from Dastun) to purchase a cat for some one you happen to like? Not unless you have strong feelings for.

As for Angel knowing, if she didn’t, then she isn’t the master agent we thought she was. In “Missing Cat”, it seems Angel was keeping close tabs on Roger. In many of these episodes, Angel always seems to be at the right place, at the right time. If she was observing his actions closely, she would pick up on these subtle clues. Personally, I think she did, but she didn’t give Dorothy the proper credit as being a real contender for Roger’s heart. Nevertheless, she did pick up on it, if she were paying attention (heck, Beck picked up on it, and he isn’t as intelligent or observant to Roger’s everymove).

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Originally posted by Tony As for Angel knowing, if she didn’t, then she isn’t the master agent we thought she was. In “Missing Cat”, it seems Angel was keeping close tabs on Roger. In many of these episodes, Angel always seems to be at the right place, at the right time. If she was observing his actions closely, she would pick up on these subtle clues. Personally, I think she did, but she didn’t give Dorothy the proper credit as being a real contender for Roger’s heart. Nevertheless, she did pick up on it, if she were paying attention (heck, Beck picked up on it, and he isn’t as intelligent or observant to Roger’s everymove).

The thing is, Roger rescued Dorothy from the same kinds of situations he rescued Angel from, and he wasn't putting the move on Angel! So a willingness to rescue isn't the same as love, from Angel's point of view.

Beside, Beck heard Dorothy say, "Roger, I love you" in BECK COMES BACK, and then somehow lose consciousness, at a time when she was supposed to be totally under Beck's control. He had plenty of time to think about that, back in his prison cell.

The fact is, Beck saw Dorothy and Roger at their most intimate, while Angel did not. It was an easier call for Beck than Angel. Angel saw Dorothy as a sort of girl Friday, a role Dorothy was extremely good at. It seemed to explain everything.

Dorothy seems such a nice person. i think i would pick her over angel, but i would have to know angel a bit more.

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Or, if it matters that much to you, whether you prefer buckets of bolts or meatbags.

Spoken oh so eloquently, ACT.

Bottom line, the thread is based solely upon opinion...

"Why I would PICK Dorothy over Angel"

So, no matter what evidence is shown to show each character's personality, morals, or values, it still comes down to personal preference and opinion.

Alas...its all about Angel!

Wow... Just wanted to say kudos to Tifaria in her defense of Angel. She brought up a lot of points I had not considered and I think she's right. Angel did change throughout the course of the show and I'm hoping that reviewing all the eps in order ( :: secretly hugs Big O Complete Collections I and II :: ) will enlighten my view of her a bit more.

Dorothy still rules, though. What can I say? I'm a sucker for the sarcastic women and Dorothy's cool comments at just the right moment are too good.

If I were Roger, I'd pick Dorothy.
And not to say that Angel isn't gorgeous or anything, she is.
But Dorothy was more meant for Roger. Because Roger tries to detach himslef from emotions and Dorothy isn't as dramatic as Angel, for one.
She is so witty, intelligent, fearless, and... that thing she did when she drove the car with her foot while standing on the hood facing the car, well that was just genius. Angel would not have been able to do that. What precision, what quick thinking! And her sarcasm kills me every time. Not only she is a sarcastic android, she is a FASHIONABLE android too! It's a knockout. And her green eyes with that eyeliner?? What can I say, if I were a man, she'd be mine by now. LOL
If Roger were to pick Angel, eventually that would lead to a conflict, because Roger would have a problem with Angel being in charge of things, such as the "controld room" for one. He is too macho to handle that. Dorothy, on the other hand, is submissive enough, yet still stubborn and moody enough to keep him from getting bored. I've read someone write that Dorothy deals with her emotions on her own and it's hard to figure out what the problem is. Well, Roger puts too much effort into figuring it out for someone who "doesn't like her". Dorothy's "brain" is that of an 18-year-old in the beginning of the show, and so she has normal teenage issues. Such as moodiness, sarcasm, running away to her room to pout, etc... I can almost hear her say: "Norman, could you please pick up some Midol later today?"
She will overcome that and mature into someone more open towards Roger. and even though Roger has issues with her being an android, he just can't help himself. He had the chance to make out with Angel, and he didn't want to take it. So I guess he's made his decision. He does put his arm around Dorothy and the way he looked in her face as he held her harddriveless unconscious corpse... And that "mouth-to-mouth" line? Hello!

I like Dorothy but I have more love for Angel so Tony don't dress up as RD again and shoot me I am still recovering from the last shot. Angel rules *Stares at the jump suit she wear in act 16*

Because Dorothy is SEXY

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Originally posted by Dark-0 I like Dorothy but I have more love for Angel so Tony don't dress up as RD again and shoot me I am still recovering from the last shot. Angel rules *Stares at the jump suit she wear in act 16*

** drops the gun on his desk, while dressed up as R-D **

Darn it! You are no fun.

[/Off_Topic]

Well, to each their own. Dorothy and any Wayneright gal rules!

Ehr... ehm... Dorothy is an ANDROID, how can she can be loved?
It's skin and metal, she does not have natural behavior but only combinations of 0 and 1. En plus she's very young (or at least she seems very young), very very slim and also i guess she's.. cold.
If i were Roger i indeed took Angel: Blonde and hot. Ok, she's not a woman who makes you to trust her, but i think there's no woman you can trust completely (*smiling embarassed, exposing his "Kiss Me" t-shirt*).

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Originally posted by Kappei Jin Ehr... ehm... Dorothy is an ANDROID, how can she can be loved? It's skin and metal, she does not have natural behavior but only combinations of 0 and 1. En plus she's very young (or at least she seems very young), very very slim and also i guess she's.. cold. If i were Roger i indeed took Angel: Blonde and hot. Ok, she's not a woman who makes you to trust her, but i think there's no woman you can trust completely (*smiling embarassed, exposing his "Kiss Me" t-shirt*).

I want to know what makes being "skin and metal" inferior to being composed of skin and calcium (bone)? Her binary CPU signals are no less "natural" than human electro-chemical ones. So, the fact that she is not a biomechanical doesn't make her less of a person. She thinks, she eats (yes, oil does count to) and she feels. How does this make her any less than a person?

However, if you want to dismiss her as a human, we will have to do the same for Angel. That's right! According to Gordon Rosewater, Angel is a memory, not even a genetic clone (tomato). So, Roger is stuck with the choice between a memory and an android. Angel certainly has her good attributes, but I will take Dorothy any day.

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Originally posted by Tony So, Roger is stuck with the choice between a memory and an android.

Hmm, guess this makes Angel intangible.

::hugs:: Tony, I'm so glad you're a Dorothy fan. You defend her with such elegance and precision. I've been hanging out at awful Adult Swim forums rallying newbies. I think the 'fans' of the show bother me more than the haters. Some of them are so dense they can't see Dorothy for the loving, drama queen, sex-fiend she truely is at heart. ::hugs again::

When I took phychology I was amazed at how automated our emotions and reactions are. All we really are, our responces and desires, are just neutral sparks and chemical floods in the brain. It's quite humbling. Even our sense of taste is basic, everything we taste is just nerve trigger's of sweet, bitter, and sour (after seeing that I'm surprised Dorothy doesn't have a more delveloped sense of taste).


muchlove
-dork

I myself personally would choose Dorothy over Angel because in my opnion in many ways Dorothy is more true to her self and does not live in denail and such. Second Dorothy does not attempt to bend others to her will or force them to like or try to force them to like her more. I also really like how Dorothy is straight forward and always tells you what is on her mind and she does not play dumb or blind and shes not overly flurtty.
I'd add more but I am afrid that my words will not make sense....
Again this is all just my opinon and yes Angel is also a good character too.