| Expo 04 | 01-20-2004 05:59 PM |
They could always go the EVA route and replace the 25 and 26 with a movie.
Act 25 S-Dome
| StevieV019 | 01-21-2004 01:27 PM |
| quote: |
| Doesn't anyone think that its still just a lame way to end the show, making everything false. |
No, not really...I dont think anything at all is fake...so, I dont think its lame...it made sense to me what happened, but everyone has their own interpretations...
| Pythagoras | 01-21-2004 02:43 PM |
| quote: | ||
Originally posted by StevieV019
No, not really...I dont think anything at all is fake...so, I dont think its lame...it made sense to me what happened, but everyone has their own interpretations... |
Well what's your theory, Stevie?
| StevieV019 | 01-21-2004 03:41 PM |
Pretty much that a lot of what was seen in Paradigm, that is everything the viewer (or ourselves...people in real life) saw, was symbolism.
For example (these'll be quick):
Roger's "flashback" or vision in Roger the Wanderer...was symbolism to show his lack of confidence and the presence of doubt within himself for the first time.
The term "director" wasnt meant to be taken literally, nor were the terms "actors" and "stage". These were simple symbols or a metaphor for what the environment of Paradigm was to everyone. Meaning this:
The people of Paradigm (somehow or another) lost their memory, and based upon the ending, they KEEP losing their memories, over and over again. At that point, the people lost their identities, and thus kept fulfilling their "roles" within Paradigm, aimlessly going about their activities without a purpose, so to speak. Thus, they kept "acting" out their lives as opposed to feeling the meaning behind it all...they kept doing the same things over and over again, taking on the roles of actors in the daily life of Paradigm.
The director, was simply the person who oversaw everything, Alex Rosewater assumed that role from Gordon and then Angel became the new director at the end. The director was simply the person who tried to right the lost memoried way of Paradigm. Gordon, through his experiments, Alex, through his maniacal desire to take over the city, and finally, Angel, by bringing forth Big Venus.
Roger's negotiation with Big Venus at the end of the show was to allow the memories to stay intact, let the people of Paradigm keep their free will, their choice to stay as "actors" or to uncover their past memories.
Longer than expected, but the gist of my theory, I have about 6-8 other posts from months ago, when Act 26 first aired, conveying every intricate detail. Ill have to dig those up...but thats it in a nutshell....
For example (these'll be quick):
Roger's "flashback" or vision in Roger the Wanderer...was symbolism to show his lack of confidence and the presence of doubt within himself for the first time.
The term "director" wasnt meant to be taken literally, nor were the terms "actors" and "stage". These were simple symbols or a metaphor for what the environment of Paradigm was to everyone. Meaning this:
The people of Paradigm (somehow or another) lost their memory, and based upon the ending, they KEEP losing their memories, over and over again. At that point, the people lost their identities, and thus kept fulfilling their "roles" within Paradigm, aimlessly going about their activities without a purpose, so to speak. Thus, they kept "acting" out their lives as opposed to feeling the meaning behind it all...they kept doing the same things over and over again, taking on the roles of actors in the daily life of Paradigm.
The director, was simply the person who oversaw everything, Alex Rosewater assumed that role from Gordon and then Angel became the new director at the end. The director was simply the person who tried to right the lost memoried way of Paradigm. Gordon, through his experiments, Alex, through his maniacal desire to take over the city, and finally, Angel, by bringing forth Big Venus.
Roger's negotiation with Big Venus at the end of the show was to allow the memories to stay intact, let the people of Paradigm keep their free will, their choice to stay as "actors" or to uncover their past memories.
Longer than expected, but the gist of my theory, I have about 6-8 other posts from months ago, when Act 26 first aired, conveying every intricate detail. Ill have to dig those up...but thats it in a nutshell....
| Zopwx2 | 01-21-2004 04:31 PM |
Symbolism sucks, and so does the scarlet letter....
ok, I take that back, but big o is still a show about giant robots, and a city with domes, and androids, and etc.
Just becuase they crammed in a whole bunch of references to the book of revleations at the end doesn't make it good.
I understand literally what happend: A big shiny dues named venus erased everything.
But as for the symbolism of the whole thing I really don't care. It may make me sound stupid. But you can't base a whole show on symbolism, there still has to be a backbone story, (which hasn't been resolved).
I could write a story about a talking bunny rabbit in a clean grass field that plays with flowers.
Little children will love it! But wait at the end I'll have someone throw it into the heart of downtown L.A.
Then Say It was a retelling of genisis or somthing like that.
(sorry about my terrible analogy.)
ok, I take that back, but big o is still a show about giant robots, and a city with domes, and androids, and etc.
Just becuase they crammed in a whole bunch of references to the book of revleations at the end doesn't make it good.
I understand literally what happend: A big shiny dues named venus erased everything.
But as for the symbolism of the whole thing I really don't care. It may make me sound stupid. But you can't base a whole show on symbolism, there still has to be a backbone story, (which hasn't been resolved).
I could write a story about a talking bunny rabbit in a clean grass field that plays with flowers.
Little children will love it! But wait at the end I'll have someone throw it into the heart of downtown L.A.
Then Say It was a retelling of genisis or somthing like that.
(sorry about my terrible analogy.)
| Big Money | 01-21-2004 04:38 PM |
Wow Zopwx2, triple post! You win the prize. But seriously, I agree, symbolism and The Scarlet Letter do suck.
Whats all this about revelation in Big O... I never understood any relationship between the two... But then again, I've been looking for that qoute from the movie Tombstone for years...
Whats all this about revelation in Big O... I never understood any relationship between the two... But then again, I've been looking for that qoute from the movie Tombstone for years...
| Zopwx2 | 01-21-2004 04:45 PM |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Big Money Wow Zopwx2, triple post! You win the prize. But seriously, I agree, symbolism and The Scarlet Letter do suck. Whats all this about revelation in Big O... I never understood any relationship between the two... But then again, I've been looking for that qoute from the movie Tombstone for years... |
Sorry about the triple post, it was unintentional, my internet is slow today and it resulted in me pressing the "post reply" button a few times to many.
We had to over analyize all the symbolism in scarlet letter and I realized how pointless it was to hide things under symbols. Especially when the scarlet letter is not a mystery novel.
But it can be ok if you are trying to hint at somthig that might be explained later. But actually making symbols the main focus of the show and just alluding to some greater and more messed up piece of symbolism (book of revelations) won't help.
| Pythagoras | 01-21-2004 06:36 PM |
| quote: | ||
Originally posted by Zopwx2
Sorry about the triple post, it was unintentional, my internet is slow today and it resulted in me pressing the "post reply" button a few times to many. We had to over analyize all the symbolism in scarlet letter and I realized how pointless it was to hide things under symbols. Especially when the scarlet letter is not a mystery novel. But it can be ok if you are trying to hint at somthig that might be explained later. But actually making symbols the main focus of the show and just alluding to some greater and more messed up piece of symbolism (book of revelations) won't help. |
It sounds as though you've been burned out to symbolism by a bad high school English teacher. Wait a few years and you'll see symbolism can be wonderful.
| Narsham | 01-22-2004 12:01 AM |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Zopwx2 We had to over analyize all the symbolism in scarlet letter and I realized how pointless it was to hide things under symbols. Especially when the scarlet letter is not a mystery novel. But it can be ok if you are trying to hint at somthig that might be explained later. But actually making symbols the main focus of the show and just alluding to some greater and more messed up piece of symbolism (book of revelations) won't help. |
Scarlet Letter is fairly heavy-handed as far as the symbolism goes.
Symbols are one of the most powerful conceptual tools available to humanity. Don't be so fast to dismiss them.
Quick example--what visual image immediately comes to your mind when you hear (or read) the word "Love?"
That's a symbol. My bet is that it relates to certain real-world items. They don't have a one-to-one correspondance to the concept "love" but they can symbolize it.
I would wager that within this community, people have different conceptualizations of love, but I'd also bet that many of those people think of the same image when they hear the word. And that's only a tiny part of the power of a symbol.
Try saying to your algebra teacher that instead of using letters to stand for variables (like x and y) you should just use the number or numbers which are supposed to be there... or, when you're driving over a bridge, think about the consequences if the engineer had been afraid of overanalyzing the design...
Narsham
Once and Future English Instructor
| taaudoloran | 01-22-2004 04:52 AM |
The whole "s-dome" idea is too far fetched and not reasonable nor reliable.
| StevieV019 | 01-22-2004 07:21 AM |
| quote: |
| It sounds as though you've been burned out to symbolism by a bad high school English teacher. Wait a few years and you'll see symbolism can be wonderful |
Agreed....the whole show is not a symbol of a symbol or a nod towards symbolism. The whole show has been told with flashbacks that are referenced through metaphors and symbolism. And because of it, you get a more refined and mature approach towards telling the story. Yes, you can get disappointed by it...thats fine. But Big O, in itself, is a pretty refined anime, in my opinion. Yes, it has big robots and so forth, but its NOT about big robots. Look at the style in the way the story was told. It wasnt done all kiddie style with graphically huge explosions or huge pieces of comedy to make you laugh. The humor, the action, the one liners, the explanations...they were all done slowly, methodically, and in a subtle way. It meant to do this, with long stretches of silence even, to bring about the mood and mystery. Big O is not about robot battles, its about painting an environment that involves some eclectic and intriguing factors. Its mystery, plain and simple.
If you dont like it, Im sorry, thats your opinion. But saying that its "crap" is almost like not trying to embrace what Big O actually is. Big O was not meant to be explained with cookie cutter examples and an easy to understand story. From the get go, you dont get any explanation of what the environment is...only that people have lost their memories. That in itself is a way to paint the environment and mood of the story.
Just because someone on screen says something, doesnt mean its meant to be taken literally.
| quote: |
| But it can be ok if you are trying to hint at somthig that might be explained later. But actually making symbols the main focus of the show and just alluding to some greater and more messed up piece of symbolism (book of revelations) won't help. |
Well, I disagree...I seem to have a pretty coherent understanding of what happened with Big O. It may not be necessarily right, but I happen to think its pretty easy to understand, and pretty much makes sense. It also lets me put it to bed, I dont spend hours figuring out what happened, I already pretty much know. Yes, its an opinion, but one that makes sense to me. The symbolism, because I was able to understand the symbols and the explanations behind them, were perfect when fitting them into Big O's story. The fact that the creators didnt explain everything nice and tidy was a perfect way to go along with the rest of the style within Big O. Symbols arent the main focus of the story, symbols were used to throw the story a little confusion, a way for the story to include more intrigue and mystery for the viewer. The story is there...a negotiator, a big robot, criminals, a city, people without memories,tracking them down...thats the story. The symbols are what explain the past history and trying to piece it all together. The story makes sense...Alex was trying to take over the city, Roger stopped him...thats the main focus of the story, that and tracking down the memories. The symbols and clues within the story are what make it confusing, not because it stops the main plot, but because at that point, we the viewer, are trying to piece together the past history of Paradigm. Its like after watching the Star Wars trilogy and before knowing about the prequel movies coming out. You had questions about Darth Vader, the Emperor, the Empire, etc. etc....you didnt know, but you had your theories based upon the first trilogy. It wasnt all cookie cutter when trying to figure out what happened...and so because of it, you had intrigue and mystery. The same is happening within Big O...
Sorry, this is definitely a long post...plain and simple, the symbolism, when figuring out what it means, makes it all a better package. And it makes sense...if you dont like the allusions to other symbols, or arent up for interpretation, and just want easy to understand storylines...dont watch Big O...go watch Dragonball Z instead. Its easy to understand and makes sense. But if you are up for putting pieces together, then let Big O be...because thats what it is....its not going to be wrapped up and easy to understand...and it was meant to be that way.
| Zopwx2 | 01-22-2004 04:52 PM |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by StevieV019 If you dont like it, Im sorry, thats your opinion. But saying that its "crap" is almost like not trying to embrace what Big O actually is. |
Did I ever call symbolism crap? If I did, I was probably exaggerating.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by StevieV019 Big O was not meant to be explained with cookie cutter examples and an easy to understand story. |
| quote: |
| Sorry, this is definitely a long post...plain and simple, the symbolism, when figuring out what it means, makes it all a better package. And it makes sense...if you dont like the allusions to other symbols, or arent up for interpretation, and just want easy to understand storylines...dont watch Big O...go watch Dragonball Z instead. Its easy to understand and makes sense. But if you are up for putting pieces together, then let Big O be...because thats what it is....its not going to be wrapped up and easy to understand...and it was meant to be that way. |
..... Let me clarify I know what happend in big o. I'm not blind.
I want to know WHY! Why would someone create a false world, Why is angel in charge, Why did angel choose to recreate it the way she did, Why are megadeii so important to the world, and all the thousands of other questions I have.
The reason I picked on symbolism was, that it seemed to me that referencing the book of revelations wasn't going to make up for a lack of explanation.
P.S.
Stop with all this "cookie-cutter" , "well I don't want my answers on a silver platter stuff".
Obviously its not that we are too stupid to analayze all the clues they gave us, but that they give us insufficient information to solve the mystery.
NO ONE, has been able to explain the show without relying on. "it was a big stage/simulation/VR world/dream" which is kind of a loophole in story telling.
| R and D | 01-22-2004 06:20 PM |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by MetalGoldKnight Well that would explain why stuff like the satallite was able to fall through. Unfortunatly, it doesn't explain why the superdome is there in the first place. |
maybe it was put over paradigm so the *actors and actresess* wouldn't escape through the sky.
| <\:/> | 01-22-2004 06:23 PM |
Personally, I like A Clockwork Tomatoe's "reality weapond" story in his fanfic. I'm not a big Sci-Fi reader so it may not be original but it is to me and I like it. Whatever the writer(s)' intention was I hope they make a third season and explain exactly what it was. An ending like that and no explanation? I guess I'll survive if there's no third season but I sure as hell want one.
| R.Jesse | 01-22-2004 08:20 PM |
ALERT!
the world is not a stage infact there may soon be a paradigm
new york as L.A and reno and vegas may have domes this
"stage" is just a missle shild and the lghts? an artifitial sun created to keep people under the shild alive the exploshons were nuke reactors in the lights
the world is not a stage infact there may soon be a paradigm
new york as L.A and reno and vegas may have domes this
"stage" is just a missle shild and the lghts? an artifitial sun created to keep people under the shild alive the exploshons were nuke reactors in the lights
| StevieV019 | 01-23-2004 07:05 AM |
| quote: |
| NO ONE, has been able to explain the show without relying on. "it was a big stage/simulation/VR world/dream" which is kind of a loophole in story telling |
I pretty much did...the Paradigm world is real...all the different references and "symbols" arent meant to be taken literally, its all there to be interpretted...
I dont think the world is a simulation, dream, stage, VR world or anything. Its a true world that is being explained and described from a different perspective. The creators used a unique way to describe and create the world of Paradigm...hence, they poured on the symbolism to explain things.
| quote: |
| Did I ever call symbolism crap? If I did, I was probably exaggerating |
No, you didnt call symbolism "crap", but everything you've been posting lately has had a negative connotation to it, you think just because everything isnt explained, that its a "cheap" resolution. My interpretation of most of your recent posts have been that you're irritated and that Big O is horrible. Thats fine, you're entitled to your opinion. We all know you dont like how they've resolved the story and ending involved.
| quote: |
| I want to know WHY! Why would someone create a false world, Why is angel in charge, Why did angel choose to recreate it the way she did, Why are megadeii so important to the world, and all the thousands of other questions I have. |
On another note:
Well, those are valid questions, them not being explained doesnt make Big O or the ending to Big O horrible. Its like Star Wars, when I posted above. After seeing it all, I had similar questions as you..."Why was Darth Vader, Darth Vader?" "How did the Empire become the Empire?" "What was the meaning of Vader's comment to Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars?" "Who the heck are the Jedi and where did they come from?" But just because I had those questions, it didnt nor does it mean that I didnt like the movies, or that I felt the ending was horribly bad without explaining anything. The ending in Return of the Jedi was fine, the resolution was the Rebellion "won the war" so to speak. The main storyline was the war between the Empire and the Rebellion...not the why or how questions referenced above.
Your question above: "Why would someone create a false world"
It appears that you've already got your mind set on Paradigm being a false world or simulation. Perhaps changing your perspective and viewing it as a true "real" world will help? Having your mind set on it being a false world could be the reason why you cant find out the answers to everything. A different perspective could offer more insight to the other questions you have, but then also fall within the realm of symbolism that the creators incorporated into the show.
Point is, we all know you hated the ending, rather than focusing on it in most of your posts, why not try interpretting what other people think and say and try incorporating them into your explanations to see if they make sense?
| Zopwx2 | 01-23-2004 01:09 PM |
1) I love big o, its one of my favorite shows, all 25 episodes were great, along with most of act 26, but the supposed final resoultion was not that great.
2) How can everything NOT be fake. In what real world can things mysteriously vanish and be replaced with a gridlike void? And more so be rebuilt? And with all those scenes of angel with the actors and TV screens they are implying that she is the one in control.
3) The starwars theory doesn't work that well. It would be more like if Luke is battling the emperor and/or vader then all of a sudden a giant omnipotent space alien comes from no where and erases everything. And Leia was controling it.
4) I take back what a said about symbolism. Its good. you can't just abandon the whole story and hope that symbolism will hold everything together.
4.5) The book of revelations is not coherant at all. Its symbols can be interpreted anyway you want. Just referencing back to that book won't solve much. But there probably more important symbols that don't involve religous texts too.
5) CAn you at least agree that a stage/simulation/VR world/dream is a loophole to fix all stories. (you could argue that the stage metaphor has significance in the overall message of the show)
6) No one is forcing you to read my posts.
2) How can everything NOT be fake. In what real world can things mysteriously vanish and be replaced with a gridlike void? And more so be rebuilt? And with all those scenes of angel with the actors and TV screens they are implying that she is the one in control.
3) The starwars theory doesn't work that well. It would be more like if Luke is battling the emperor and/or vader then all of a sudden a giant omnipotent space alien comes from no where and erases everything. And Leia was controling it.
4) I take back what a said about symbolism. Its good. you can't just abandon the whole story and hope that symbolism will hold everything together.
4.5) The book of revelations is not coherant at all. Its symbols can be interpreted anyway you want. Just referencing back to that book won't solve much. But there probably more important symbols that don't involve religous texts too.
5) CAn you at least agree that a stage/simulation/VR world/dream is a loophole to fix all stories. (you could argue that the stage metaphor has significance in the overall message of the show)
6) No one is forcing you to read my posts.
| Jeff Wright | 01-23-2004 01:59 PM |
I think the superdome is part of a projection system--with the giant Soviet satellite crash another projection upon the grid as well--another sim. I can't help but still think of the grid as being a parallel to a copy of Paradigm on the ground--with the action taking place in space itself--aka Dark City.
| Pythagoras | 01-23-2004 02:06 PM |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Zopwx2 1) I love big o, its one of my favorite shows, all 25 episodes were great, along with most of act 26, but the supposed final resoultion was not that great. 2) How can everything NOT be fake. In what real world can things mysteriously vanish and be replaced with a gridlike void? And more so be rebuilt? And with all those scenes of angel with the actors and TV screens they are implying that she is the one in control. 3) The starwars theory doesn't work that well. It would be more like if Luke is battling the emperor and/or vader then all of a sudden a giant omnipotent space alien comes from no where and erases everything. And Leia was controling it. 4) I take back what a said about symbolism. Its good. you can't just abandon the whole story and hope that symbolism will hold everything together. 4.5) The book of revelations is not coherant at all. Its symbols can be interpreted anyway you want. Just referencing back to that book won't solve much. But there probably more important symbols that don't involve religous texts too. 5) CAn you at least agree that a stage/simulation/VR world/dream is a loophole to fix all stories. (you could argue that the stage metaphor has significance in the overall message of the show) 6) No one is forcing you to read my posts. |
I don't see how you, and others, can be dissappointed with the ending. I agree that all signs do point to things being fake. But this shouldn't be a cause for anger. Instead, it raises some very good questions that humanity will have to answer (or at least address) at some point in time: Can machines/programs ever be created that can truly feel? Is our universe just a hologram? Do "people" who exist virtually have the same rights as those who have a physical existence? Can we even call them people?
I believe that Roger Smith's world is a virtual reality created by him (see my "Paradigm, Roger Smith's private hell" thread) and as such, I think "Big O" also raises some very good points about fiction: That one shouldn't become so attached to the fictional world that real life loses its meaning.
It's possible for authors/screenwriters/etc. to exploit characters. What would happen if one of them suddenly was able to realize that this was happening? Would a fictional character prefer that you know who he is more than his adventures which are not real to begin with? Do imaginary people have any rights?
What if our lives are really just a story within another story? What would happen if a fictional character living in a fictional world was suddenly transported into the fictional universe that actually created his own?
Then there's the nature of writing fiction. Who is really doing the writing? Many authors believe that their books simply write themselves. Is this true to any degree?
---
I could go on and on because there's so much to think about in "Big O." It's so much more than just a simple bot-explosion-android show.
| StevieV019 | 01-23-2004 04:14 PM |
| quote: |
| How can everything NOT be fake. In what real world can things mysteriously vanish and be replaced with a gridlike void? And more so be rebuilt? And with all those scenes of angel with the actors and TV screens they are implying that she is the one in control. |
Well, this (the gridlike void, etc.) all happened, while Angel was within a control room...with Roger and Dorothy showing up and putting a hand on her shoulder. Rather than taking it for its literalness, step outside the box and perhaps interpret it from a different perspective. Im not saying it is for certain the world is or is not fake...but it is a different perspective...
| quote: |
| The starwars theory doesn't work that well. It would be more like if Luke is battling the emperor and/or vader then all of a sudden a giant omnipotent space alien comes from no where and erases everything. And Leia was controling it. |
This isnt a theory, its a comparison, comparing how you want answers for the "why" questions within Big O. I was comparing your desire to having your Big O questions answered to my desire in having my Star Wars questions answered. Thats it...it has nothing to do with Big O, nor the explanation behind the plot. I did it as a way to show similarity...
| quote: |
| The book of revelations is not coherant at all. Its symbols can be interpreted anyway you want. Just referencing back to that book won't solve much. But there probably more important symbols that don't involve religous texts too. |
My theory didnt mention anything about the Book of Revelations, if you were referring to posts from others...thats fine, but my theory didnt mention anything about it...so to this, Im kinda confused...
| quote: |
| CAn you at least agree that a stage/simulation/VR world/dream is a loophole to fix all stories. (you could argue that the stage metaphor has significance in the overall message of the show) |
I can agree that it CAN be somewhat of a loophole...but not for all stories and not all the time. I think its too much of a generalization to categorize it ALWAYS as a loophole. I, however, dont think Big O was done this way, as evidenced by my theory. (My theory may not be correct, but it doesnt really relate to a loophole...)
| quote: |
| No one is forcing you to read my posts |
No, noone is...but when you have to weed through so much negativity...it discourages the discussion sometimes. Anger doesnt always have to be conveyed over and over again. Just trying to help the "community" here prosper and grow...