Big O Repeats: Week 4, Episodes 13-16 Discussion

My thoughts on Roger the Wanderer:

I agree that this is a vision. The factor triggering it is harder to pin down. Are these the memories implanted in Roger, surfacing at a moment of supreme tension? Or is this an internal search for identity, a confrontation deep within Roger's Id between himself and himself?

The trigger is pretty clearly that heartbeat(?) monitor flatlining, though it's not clear to me whether that indicates that Roger momentarily died (which would make sense of the whole Angel bringing him back through a tunnel... perhaps a domeless New York is metaphoric heaven?) or whether Big O momentarily died. The latter seems slightly more likely to me as the central identity question within the vision is whether Roger is anyone without Big O. Who is he? Do all his skills, memories, etc originate in Big O? Is the Big the puppet or the puppeteer?

I see at least a slim possibility that Roger and R. Dorothy bond at this moment--that their relationship matches the power and influence between a Big and its Dominus, but on a more equal (romantic) level.

R-D could then be a specific sub-experiment, potentially, a different way of figuring the synthesis between megadeus and human being, with R. Dorothy and Roger as two halves of the experiment. It does seem to be their working in conjunction which allows Big O to activate a new power. (I would guess that Dastun saw openings appearing 360 degrees on Big O and figured something damaging was going to come out when he ordered the evacuation...)

Note the level markers in the tunnel leading underground in the vision. 160, 170... he's getting closer to what's beneath it all but he's still a while away.

BTW, the newspaper in the vision has real text in it, but the larger print is the only episode related material (about the discovery of Archetype in the underground). The rest is not in standard English and refers to weather in Japan, so I'd guess it was unscripted.

Can anyone make out the text in the upper left of the comic panel which appears immediately after we see Roger curled up in terror? For that matter, it'd be nice to have the text of the other comic panels he reads earlier.

I don't see any way to fit this episode into a Matrix-Truman Show model for the series--there's simply no mechanism to account for Roger hopping out and back in to Big O so rapidly.

Another BTW... during the overacted theatrical scene, the reference to the "great big O" connects, I believe, to Shakespeare's description of the Globe theater as part of the "theater as container for the world" metaphor he often used.

Narsham

quote:

Originally posted by Zola okay, just a couple of points I want to raise here... Did this shot make anyone think of RD? That was at about 3:49 in the ep. Was Roger simply hallucinating? If you look at how Dorothy is standing, it looks like not only is she lending a hand with the controls, she is also leaning on the indirect pressure point on the underside of the arm. If you will remember, in RD, Roger was trying to calculate how long he had before he passed out from blood loss. Is that the real reason he "lost touch" with reality? An interesting section when he is talking to Dorothy just as he comes back. Dorothy: Roger Smith Roger: And you are Dorothy Wayneright. You called me Roger Smith just now, didn't you, Dorothy? And is it appropriate for me to play Roger Smith? Dorothy: You said play, but that's ridiculous. You're not an actor, Roger Smith. Roger: Yes, that's right, R. Dorothy Wayneright. As long as you keep on calling me that name, I'll be Roger Smith. ... Big O! Showtime! As long as you keep on calling me that name, I'll be Roger Smith. Not "you recognize me". Not "You're saying that is proof that I am who I think I am" but "As long as you keep calling me that name..." Hmmm....... Last but not least. Big O's multi chain and anchor attack. I don't believe that we ever saw it before, and I don't think we ever see it again. How did Dastun know to tell everyone to fall back to get out of harm's way? Many, many questions. No side.

Well I believe it was far more than any halousanation, more of a dream like state as mentioned above.
I don't know about R-D, but definately the impression that R. Dorothy has left the building if ya know what I mean.
As for the anchor chain. Dastun has seen them in operation before, in the battle with Big Duo if nowhere else. So he would know one when he saw one, or one being ready to launch. He noticed the many chains about to fire through his binoculars and knew to get the heck out of the way. Dastun also worked with Roger in the military police so Dastun has a at least fair idea of how Roger would fight. In this case shooting somewhat blindly in all directions to take out multiple enemies.

Tonight is NEGOTIATION WITH THE DEAD. I missed all but the last few minutes last time, so I'm excited! TiVo, don't fail me now!

Even though I say act 26 didn't make sense, for some reason I love act 14.

We all seem to agree this was some sort of split second fantasy inside of roger's head, but what it means is anyones guess. Maybe it was him dealing with the overload of new things he learned at the end of 13 along with blood loss.

Also, In my opinion acts 15-16 are really not that great.

quote:

Originally posted by Zola okay, just a couple of points I want to raise here... Did this shot make anyone think of RD? That was at about 3:49 in the ep. Was Roger simply hallucinating? If you look at how Dorothy is standing, it looks like not only is she lending a hand with the controls, she is also leaning on the indirect pressure point on the underside of the arm. If you will remember, in RD, Roger was trying to calculate how long he had before he passed out from blood loss. Is that the real reason he "lost touch" with reality? An interesting section when he is talking to Dorothy just as he comes back. Dorothy: Roger Smith Roger: And you are Dorothy Wayneright. You called me Roger Smith just now, didn't you, Dorothy? And is it appropriate for me to play Roger Smith? Dorothy: You said play, but that's ridiculous. You're not an actor, Roger Smith. Roger: Yes, that's right, R. Dorothy Wayneright. As long as you keep on calling me that name, I'll be Roger Smith. ... Big O! Showtime! As long as you keep on calling me that name, I'll be Roger Smith. Not "you recognize me". Not "You're saying that is proof that I am who I think I am" but "As long as you keep calling me that name..." Hmmm....... Last but not least. Big O's multi chain and anchor attack. I don't believe that we ever saw it before, and I don't think we ever see it again. How did Dastun know to tell everyone to fall back to get out of harm's way? Many, many questions. No side.

Glad you posted that.

Well, I wouldn't doubt it for one second if Roger was hallucinating during his mid-battle trip.
Doing so out of blood loss makes sense.

The shot does make Dorothy look a bit like R-D, but what it really makes me think is:
WOOOOOOOAAAAH!
She looks seeeeeeex-eeeeee!
*fans self to cool down*

I'm with Wingnut on the achor chains:
I bet that Dastun has seen those things in action up close enough tiimes - like when he starts hopping up and down as Roger and Big O wreck yet another pristine building - to know immediately what happens when those rocket-propelled anchors/grappling irons assume the firing position.
One of them even saved his life in episodes #1 and #2 when Roger fired one into the ground to keep the arm-pistoned Dorothy 1 from falling on his ex-superior and R. Dorothy.

quote:

Originally posted by YZEtc The shot does make Dorothy look a bit like R-D, but what it really makes me think is: WOOOOOOOAAAAH! She looks sexy.

Amen! She looks wonderful in that pose, helping Roger with his weakened left arm and generally lending moral support.

(Which she did without saying a word, and even without looking at him. When he smiled at her at the end of Act 13, she didn't notice; her gaze was straight ahead.)

Yes, that louse is an awfully lucky guy.

Bring on #15.
I'm feelin' it.

*loads tape into VCR with stars in eyes, clenched teeth, and drool coming out of mouth*

quote:

Originally posted by YZEtc Yes, that louse is an awfully lucky guy. Bring on #15. I'm feelin' it. *loads tape into VCR with stars in eyes, clenched teeth, and drool coming out of mouth*

Don't feel it too hard, becuase I really don't think 15 or 16 where that good. 17 is quasi-good

spoiler (highlight to read):

schwarzwald was the only reason that episode was good

..... lets just say it doesn't pick up until stripes!

I feel it. One of the more big O like episode in terms of negotiating, megadeus fights, etc. The animation was pretty good. Roger looked great in the griffon. I like this episode.

Dorothy and Angel together for the first time! And they only ripped strips off each other a little bit!

I had missed most of this episode the last time around. NOW I know why Angel got fired! Encouraging Dastun to shoot at Alex's other assistant in the course of his duties is not something Alex encourages.

Angel is moving over into Roger's camp just as fast as she can. It's going to get her into trouble, I'm afraid.

Dorothy was great. Roger did pretty well, too. He didn't sweat at all at the idea of having both women alternately sniping at each other and at him, which, I think, showed a calmer and more collected attitude than he would have during Season 1.

Wayneright was certainly a busy boy. I suspect that Dorothy was beginning to get an idea of just HOW busy, which is why she called him "Dr. Wayneright" (or was it "Professor"?) instead of her usual "Father."

Angel should have shot Alan herself. I wonder why she didn't?

Was the copper shielding in Wayneright's house a way of recovering memories? Or of preventing them from leaking away once regained?

i just finished watching act 14......

im just...... wow.

i missed acts 14-20 due to cable issues (damn cablevision... meh...!), but im just catching up to what it is i missed and by god all mighty anythoughts i had about the plot between episodes 1-13, than 20-22, 25-26... i thought i had a round idea on wtf is goingon...

and now it just went out the window with my sanity......


dude...! i got the deepest notion that wayneright... has something to do with the "war" the event etc...

quote:

Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato Was the copper shielding in Wayneright's house a way of recovering memories? Or of preventing them from leaking away once regained?

I figured that between the ceiling magnet and the copper shielding, Wayneright may have created a sort of panic room wherein he could protect himself from his own creations. He was afraid of something, all right -- it seems that all but one project to which he turned his hand ended up homicidal, or perhaps was intended to be.

Angel must have learned shooting at the Annie Oakley school. Not only does she hit her target each time, she does so with Roger as a backdrop! From the appearance of the android after she's done with it, I wonder if she was using hollow-point bullets.

Pygmalion

Alright.
That's more like it.
I like not seeing a tomato every minute.

The opening sequence was cool as ice.
Psychedelic, neon swirls with silhouettes or action clips; as long as that killer theme music is there, I can't feel bad.

Roger Smith: Negotiator. Grouch.

I thought the Golden Rule of Roger's Bank was that only lovely, young women could be invited inside without checking with Roger, first.

The Fitzgeralds are also writing checks with a numerical dollar amout of $**30.85 .

It's cute seeing Dorothy get a bit jealous.
For someone who claims not to feel human emotion, her voice sure has the right tone.
Fact of Life:
Being stuck to a big electromagnet while you watch your employer/boyfriend flirt with the well-endowed opposition is a force not to be underestimated.

Damn.
Glinda looks wicked-cool, and moves with such a lady-like grace.
The way she strikes a pose with that sword does something for me.

Dastun was genuinely delighted to see Big O make another big, expensive hole in the street.
For a few seconds, at least.

Now, that's a new weapon on Big O.
Handle with care.

Alan came-up with a good nickname for Angel:
Sneaky Kitty.
They know each other from somewhere.

This was OK in my book.
I didn't learn anything groundbreaking, but there weren't any gross disappointments, either.
The interaction between Roger, Dorothy, and Angel was good stuff.
Interesting what can happen when you get three head-strong personalities crammed into the same car.

Well, maybe I did have something reinforced:
Along the lines of when Schwarzwald in Underground Terror said that back in the day a Megadeus was nothing special, it was not uncommon for humans and androids to live side-by-side.
Pre-Event Paradigm must have been quite the technologically swinging place to spend your honeymoon.

My "As I See Them" ranking:
1) Roger the Negotiator
2) Daemonseed
3) Underground Terror
4) R-D
5) Beck Comes Back
6) Enemy Is Another Big!
7) Negotiation with the Dead
8.) Missing Cat
9) Dorothy, Dorothy
10) Electric City
11) Roger the Wanderer
12) A Call From the Past
13) A Legacy of Amadeus
14) Winter Night Phantom
15) Bring Back my Ghost

Bring-on #16.

I don't think that the android in Wayneright's house was the same model as Dorothy. We saw Dorothy with bare arms in Act 1, and she doesn't have visible elbow joints, but the android in Wayneright's lab did. Dorothy has such skinny arms ("slim!" Don't hit me fanboys, I meant "slim!" Not "skinny!") that I don't think you can make a case for her having visible elbow joints that have been covered up with an additional layer.

Also, the android in Wayneright's lab seemed almost a hollow plastic shell, so it doesn't seem plausible that she weighed as much as Dorothy (nor did she get stuck to the electromagnet).

Might have been the android equivalent of Glinda, which was much more lightweight and acrobatic than Dorothy 1.

I think the android in Wayneright's lab was an unfinished prototype of the Dorothy android. It's got a similar face and build, but is definitely unfinished. If Dorothy has some sort of "skin" covering her, that one doesn't. Also, the back of the skull didnt' look covered yet.

Some things I noticed:

There's a metal bird in a cage that Dorothy looks at when they enter the house. A nightingale?

Glinda seemed to click her heels before she jumped once. Another subtle Wizard of Oz reference?

Angel's jacket seems almost like Roger's in this one.

Dastun's promotion to Colonel is only mentioned in passing. Wonder when it actually happened. Sometime between the the last two episodes, I'd guess, cause he was still a Major in R-D and Roger the Wanderer.

What kind of bullets does Alan Gabriel use in that golden luger of his, anyways? Fitzgerald's head exploded like a watermelon being attacked by R. Lee Ermey.

Dorothy said that the original Dorothy was born in that house, making it well over 40 years old. Seems like it survived the Event completely intact. Interesting.

Wayneright has some nifty goodies in his place. Copper-lined walls and the obligitory giant electro-magnet in the ceiling (maybe Beck does have memories of Wayneright...he likes those things too). Those heavy doors are interesting too. There's no way he could've opened them by himself even 40 years ago (if Roger at 25 and in good shape couldn't budge them, I can't see Wayneright at 40-ish and already walking with a cane doing it).

Glinda moves damn fast for a Megadeus. The only other one I know of that moved like that was Archetype. She had a pretty cool sword, too. Shame Big O smashed it. But seeing O-Thunder's first use was damn cool.

Norman's reaction to Big O activating is priceless. He's pretty spry for an old timer, too. Also, I like that Roger seemed surprised that Angel knew he was Big O's dominus, but then got all cocky when he called it. Always trying to impress the girls. The louse.

...and yet again i miss the dang episode. :-( grrrr...

Hee. Dorothy in that maid get-up was just too cute, especially when she got that irritated look on her face while Roger was babbling on.

It does seem like Wayneright was probably afraid of his creations. Like Dorothy said, even he didn't understand what made her work-- if he didn't understand what made Dorothy work, maybe he didn't understand what made Glinda and his other creations work, either. That would give him cause enough to be afraid of them. People fear things they don't understand.

I really like seeing Angel and Dorothy together, even if there's a six-inch thick wall of tension between them. I like them both, so it seems a shame that they'll never get along perfectly because of that silly louse.

quote:

Originally posted by Tifaria I really like seeing Angel and Dorothy together, even if there's a six-inch thick wall of tension between them. I like them both, so it seems a shame that they'll never get along perfectly because of that silly louse.

To give you the fanboy perspective, Dorothy and Angel together in the same scene is worth staying up late for! Woo-hoo! Hubba-Hubba!

Angel's opening line was classic. "Isn't it about time you reconsidered your no-guns policy?" That was some fancy shootin', Tex!

Dorothy pointed out that there was one PAIR that hadn't been assassinated. Obviously Fitzgerald is not one of a pair, so she was talking about someone else. Perhaps:

spoiler (highlight to read):

Gordon and Alex Rosewater.

I didn't catch it at first, but Dastun didn't miss Alan; his bullets bounced off.

Apparently Roger was reluctant to summon Big O with Angel in the car, but she reminded him that she already knew, and that he already knew she knew. She's known for a long time, at least since CALL FROM THE PAST, and maybe since ELECTRIC CITY. She referred to Big O explicitly in the library scen in R-D.

Would Big O have allowed Norman to fall screaming to his death? I doubt it. But he should give a little warning next time!

Another thing that just popped into my mind: it was said that all of the original Paradigm board members were dead, along with their doubles (save one pair and Fitzgerald). Yet, in Winter Night Phantom Roger stopped the last assassination attempt. So I guess that means they still managed to get the guy they were gunning for at the end. Wonder how they did it?