Big O Repeats: Week 4, Episodes 13-16 Discussion

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Originally posted by GAT-X105 I've STILL never seen Roger the Wanderer. Stupid work. I'm forcing myself to stay up late enough to watch it tonight.

Generic Season 2 advice: Stuff goes by so fast, it's best to tape it all! Everything's worth a second viewing, at least. Maybe more. Especially when it's on so late at night.

Roger the wonder is certainly one of my top 5 favorite episodes. Its so dark and plays with your mind. And the opening fight is one of the best fights in the big O series.

I remember when I missed it, too. I got back from work, took a shower, looked at my watch. It was 12, and I remembered I wanted to see something at 12...
"F***! Big O!"
I joined here 2 days later.

I'm really looking forward to the Season 2 repeats starting tonight. I've only seen each of the episodes once. Should've taped them, but I knew I wouldn't get the chance to tape them all, so I didn't tape any...and I won't be able to tape them now cause I don't have a VCR...

Here's what I think the Wanderer part means. I have a few different theories.

1) The nice, happy, sunny Paradigm (which is DEFINITELY New York, you can see the Empire State Building), is the ideal that all of the "resets", "loops", or whatever, are trying to reach again. Something happened, lots of people died, New York was smashed, it somehow became separated from the rest of the world, and it's slowly been trying to return to its original state. In this city, Waynewright has aged well, as opposed to becoming a scraggly old coot.
The memories of the Leviathan war and the Bigs going nuts were memories of past resets, which went badly.

2) This other one came from Beck's overacting. The whole "homeless Roger" part was the same as Angel's memories in the house. They were taped, fake, but not the ones chosen to use and for some reason, this time, returned to the surface.

Nope, that's not the storm clouds breaking, it's the stagelights going on super-bright for God-knows why.

And BTW, I think Angel was wearing an Air Force uniform.

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Originally posted by GAT-X105 Here's what I think the Wanderer part means. I have a few different theories. 1) The nice, happy, sunny Paradigm (which is DEFINITELY New York, you can see the Empire State Building), is the ideal that all of the "resets", "loops", or whatever, are trying to reach again. Something happened, lots of people died, New York was smashed, it somehow became separated from the rest of the world, and it's slowly been trying to return to its original state. In this city, Waynewright has aged well, as opposed to becoming a scraggly old coot. The memories of the Leviathan war and the Bigs going nuts were memories of past resets, which went badly. 2) This other one came from Beck's overacting. The whole "homeless Roger" part was the same as Angel's memories in the house. They were taped, fake, but not the ones chosen to use and for some reason, this time, returned to the surface. Nope, that's not the storm clouds breaking, it's the stagelights going on super-bright for God-knows why. And BTW, I think Angel was wearing an Air Force uniform.

and remember angel was like, "time to take you back to where you belong". it would be sick to suggest that a quasi-matrix truman show (i know u guys hate those comparisons) exists outside the known plot in the greater scheme of things in the show. it would be insanely clever if it turns out that yea a war did happen; or was about to happen; or people are trying to predict a future of robots running amok and possibly everything is an experiment dealing with humanities issues on free will and the whole philosophical origins in the theme of the series...

although we deal greatly with the comparisons of the bigs to religious figures, in all honesty, the bigs are the robotic representation and extenstion of their respective pilots.

Big O and his powerful demenor with roger piloting it with matching traits, and a straight alll buisness one side face. (big o's all blk face).

Big Duo with the ability to fly, dissapere and reapere, it was always said birds that fly, are free. Swartzwauld could be considered "free" or a "free-bird", dead or alive doesnt matter... also since swartzwauld isnt really "bad", although insane, he discovered, or will or had discovered the truth. His big is 2-faced... to rally around his 2-faced personality, Swartzwuald and Zaebach....

and then u have Big Fau/ Faustus/ Leviathan whatever, king like in apperence, arrogant facial expression on the bigs face plate, has uber-powerful weapons making it the big of bigs (well as a sub big heck yea those arm missles were more like torpedos....), and more so, its pilot is Rosewater, the leader of paradigm... appropriate that the bigs were designed after the characteristics of their pilots...

and angel... matching big venus with the same scar marks on their respective backs, venus although resembling big-o, has its distinct features that would signify its relation to the belief that it is the equivolent of the devil (Venus=Lucifer etc.). not an evil face directly but evil demenor just havinga big ass big walk towards u with beams going everywhere and things dissapering.... fitting her recreation of paradigm role....

but notice @ the end of roger the wanderer that angel is crying, almost as if she knows whats going to happen... as if she has done it before but doesnt remember or know what it is that is going to happen.

The scene with Dorothy near the end was wonderful, with their true selves reflected in the plate-glass window and their personas in Roger's vision in the foreground. Roger's bond with Dorothy runs very deep.

On a different level, Roger trusts Angel, too. In spite of lying to him or being maddeningly cryptic most of the time, he trusts her to reveal the truth in the end.

Re "Roger the Wanderer": Wow.

This may be just me, but did anyone else get the feeling that everything happened in Roger's head within the space of minutes, perhaps seconds? Think An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge. Memories, nightmares, or whathaveyou, it seemed as if a switch got flipped somewhere, and now they won't stop coming back. This may be the evidence needed to confirm that the R-D on Red Destiny's hit list was in fact Roger; remember that the four dead people all were "tomatoes" who were just beginning to manifest those implanted memories.

And in any reality it seems it will always be Dorothy who snaps Roger out of it. "You're not an actor, Roger Smith." Words to live by, eh? (And hey, the "real" Roger and Dorothy appearing as reflections in the windows during the AU Roger/Dorothy confrontation? Very nice touch.)

im curious... think it possible that an entire super-dome was created underground.... and angel was driving roger back to the "stage"? conviently fortifying my conspiricy theory

I think that Roger Smith, a man who is used to winning, to being in control, was suddenly forced to undergo a major change in perspective. The whole memory/flashback/alternative universe thing occured right after Big O had his arm bit off. Unless I'm horribly mistaken, that's the biggest injury Big O had ever recived (until act 26...). When the arm was bitten off, Roger thought, for one horrible ghastly second, that he might lose! This caused him to question his purpose in life, for if he isn't the greatest pilot, than what is he? I believe that the majority of this epeisode is him questioning his fears. Fears of loss, and the dark. When he decides to confront these fears, he 'snaps' out of it...

If any of this has already been said, just ignore it...

The thing about Roger the Wanderer is that the Roger we know couldn't have possibly lived back then. This leads me to believe that Roger was actually seeing visions of his father (and Beck's). I would assume Gordon implanted the memories of the fathers/mothers into the sons/daughters.

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Originally posted by Penny Century This may be just me, but did anyone else get the feeling that everything happened in Roger's head within the space of minutes, perhaps seconds?

It isn't just you. I thought the same thing.

I adore Overactor's Playhouse in Act 14!

"Master Rrrroger Smith, then!"
"Hah! Your Cuh-Razy!"

Stuff I missed the first time around: 1) I totally didn't connect the pink light from the TV studio in "Underground Terror" to the place Angel took him ("To where you used to come from", as she says), 2) Big Fau's face hidden behind one of the 3 megadeuses, 3) Dastun mentioning foreigners in the beginning, and then it switches to Angel, 4) Angel crying at the end (why?), 5) Roger having the vision from "Underground Terror" followed by the comic panel of Michael Seebach finding the Archetype

I know she was dressed in military attire, but Angel seemed very much like she was in the role of the Director when picked up Roger off the street.

In light of Act 26, Act 14 makes a whole lot more sense. I always really, really liked this episode.

as re: Angel's uniform, I'm not sure it's Air Fforce. At least not modern US Air Force. the modern USAF dress uniform is a very business suit looking afair in a dark blue, I think. It makes one think of comercial airline pilots. at least that's what i recall from several years ago.

Her uniform (asuming it's American) could be either a variation on current US Army dress uniforms or US Marine Service dress uniforms. Honestly, It looks a lot Like the USMC female Service "Alpha" uniform. dress shoes, just-past kneee length skirt and single btreasted jaket, olive drab in color, and "garrison" style cap.

The hairstyle is out of regulation for any US service branch, but well this is Angel... *grin*

then again, thinking about Roger's uniform from the flashbacks later in the series, its more of a world war two feel anyhoo, so army or army air corps would work.

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Originally posted by Freelancer im curious... think it possible that an entire super-dome was created underground.... and angel was driving roger back to the "stage"? conviently fortifying my conspiricy theory

Hallucinations don't make very good evidence. They don't make evidence at all.

It was all a vision. It clearly took place in a fraction of a second, since Roger and Big O were in the middle of a fistfight at the time.

Well, this was a head trip and a half.

The recap during the first couple minutes played like a who's-who of Paradigm.

Roger's sure attracting a lot of attention by walking around unshaven, with untucked shirt and mussed-up hair.

Hmmm.
Old man Tim Wayneright looks about 40-or-so years younger, and Dorothy is as pretty as ever.
Heartbreaking that she didn't recognize him.
I really wish that we would have heard more of that catchy music coming from inside The Nightingale.

The text on the newspaper page with the picture of Archetype is a bunch of gobly-gook, like a bad translation.

Oh, dear.
Now Alex is tossing tomatoes around.
Doesn't he have more clearly-defined things to do? - like ruthlessly take-over the world?

Enter, anorexic psycho in face paint.

My, my, my.
The unleashing of some heavy stuff.
Too heavy? Too deep?
Just how long was the gap in time between production work done to #13 and #14?
I, too, got the impression that Roger's bad day took only a few seconds to take place in his mind.
Kinda' like one's life flashing before their eyes.
He was - after all - in the middle of a fight.
And speaking of fight:
What the hell happened to that ass-kicking tension that I felt at the end of #13?
I get the feeling that it was tampered with.

This is another episode that is highly regarded, but for some reason was deflected off my brain and failed to sink in.
Important, nonetheless.

My "As I See Them" ranking:
1) Roger the Negotiator
2) Daemonseed
3) Underground Terror
4) R-D
5) Beck Comes Back
6) Enemy Is Another Big!
7) Missing Cat
8.) Dorothy, Dorothy
9) Electric City
10) Roger the Wanderer
11) A Call From the Past
12) A Legacy of Amadeus
13) Winter Night Phantom
14) Bring Back my Ghost

I want #15 - now.

One of the best episodes in the series.

The opening credits is a masterpiece. Sill I use this to get people into the show with a clip of the opening. This episode is so dark and you can feel rogers pain "memories why cant they just GO AWAY".

heh

Roger gives a vague description of how he left the force, and his history, i wonder if his foster parents are still alive

and if this was modern day new york, i doubt that Dorothy would be wearing a dress like that, it ha to have a long ass slit, lets see some leg honey

okay, just a couple of points I want to raise here...

Did this shot make anyone think of RD?



That was at about 3:49 in the ep.

Was Roger simply hallucinating? If you look at how Dorothy is standing, it looks like not only is she lending a hand with the controls, she is also leaning on the indirect pressure point on the underside of the arm.

If you will remember, in RD, Roger was trying to calculate how long he had before he passed out from blood loss. Is that the real reason he "lost touch" with reality?

An interesting section when he is talking to Dorothy just as he comes back.

Dorothy: Roger Smith
Roger: And you are Dorothy Wayneright. You called me Roger Smith just now, didn't you, Dorothy? And is it appropriate for me to play Roger Smith?
Dorothy: You said play, but that's ridiculous. You're not an actor, Roger Smith.
Roger: Yes, that's right, R. Dorothy Wayneright. As long as you keep on calling me that name, I'll be Roger Smith. ... Big O! Showtime!

As long as you keep on calling me that name, I'll be Roger Smith.

Not "you recognize me". Not "You're saying that is proof that I am who I think I am" but "As long as you keep calling me that name..."

Hmmm.......

Last but not least. Big O's multi chain and anchor attack. I don't believe that we ever saw it before, and I don't think we ever see it again.

How did Dastun know to tell everyone to fall back to get out of harm's way?

Many, many questions.

No side.

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Originally posted by Zola Was Roger simply hallucinating?

He's certainly hallucinating. I don't care to venture a guess about the "simply."

But I think that even if we just look at it as a dream, it tells us something. Roger trusts Angel to show him the truth eventually, but he also expects her to play a part and tell him lies. But he trusts her, just the same. I found that very interesting.

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An interesting section when he is talking to Dorothy just as he comes back. Dorothy: Roger Smith Roger: And you are Dorothy Wayneright. You called me Roger Smith just now, didn't you, Dorothy? And is it appropriate for me to play Roger Smith? Dorothy: You said play, but that's ridiculous. You're not an actor, Roger Smith. Roger: Yes, that's right, R. Dorothy Wayneright. As long as you keep on calling me that name, I'll be Roger Smith. ... Big O! Showtime!

I think Roger trusts Dorothy more than he trusts himself. If Dorothy tells him something, it's true. If she recognizes him as Roger Smith, that's who he is -- the Roger Smith that Dorothy knows.

It's significant that she rejected the whole "actor" business as ridiculous. Even if you assume that it's all just Roger's dream, he sees Dorothy as someone who is simply not subject to the kinds of uncertainty that plague the humans in Paradigm City.

Both Angel and Dorothy knew him in his dream. Nobody else did. Both of them helped him in characteristic ways -- Angel by dragging him off to where he needed to be, but where he didn't want to go, and Dorothy by bringing him safely home again.