Confused about Season 2?Or anything else?...me too! Doesn't anyone have any answers???

dreamangel1130 11-26-2003 02:42 PM
Did anyone get anything out of the second season...especially episode 26? Sheesh!
Like, what is Angel? A megadeuce? An angel? A memory? Is Paradigm City really an illusion? What was with that thing at the end when everything was like...reset? What happened to Alex...and Gordon? How did The Metropolis write itself? Do you think Alan Gabriel is actually dead? Who made that place underground? Why was it so modern? What were those things falling from the sky? That were all light-ful...and exploded on contact on the ground? If you have any answers, please reply!
Confused
A Clockwork Tomato 11-26-2003 03:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dreamangel1130
Did anyone get anything out of the second season...especially episode 26? Sheesh!
Like, what is Angel? A megadeuce? An angel? A memory? Is Paradigm City really an illusion? What was with that thing at the end when everything was like...reset? What happened to Alex...and Gordon? How did The Metropolis write itself? Do you think Alan Gabriel is actually dead? Who made that place underground? Why was it so modern? What were those things falling from the sky? That were all light-ful...and exploded on contact on the ground? If you have any answers, please reply!
Confused


Well, I have my theories. None can be proven. I also believe that the show's creators aren't 100% clear in their own minds how everything works, but will continue to explore things in season 3. Very few writers actually plan everything in advance; they stick in stuff that feels right but don't work out most of the implications until later.

ANGEL. Angel is a woman. Depending on your definition and how you interpret things, she may not be human, or not all the time, but she's always a woman. My working hypothesis is that Angel has two manifestations, and the one we know is entirely human. Both of them love Roger Smith -- though it's possible that Angel-as-Director loves all her characters.

PARADIGM CITY. I think it's as real as a punch in the nose most of the time, but at certain times it can be altered without regard to cause and effect.

THE ENDING. I believe Angel paid attention to Roger Smith and what he said about wanting to live, and how she should live her life as a human, and put Paradigm back the way it was before Big Fau appeared. NOT back to Act 1 -- that doesn't make any sense.

ALEX, GORDON: Hard to imagine Angel setting up a new world with Alex running around loose in it. Or Vera. Gordon's task was done. I don't think we'll be seeing him again.

METROPOLIS: If Gordon can be believed, he saw his version in a dream and wrote it down, or started writing it down and quit (Gordon is rebellious). The new version was presumably filled up with Angel's version of the past, or present, or future -- hard to say. It's not clear that a copy exists in the real world, or whether it's subject to revision.

ALAN GABRIEL: Deader than a doornail.

THE UNDERGROUND: Paradigm has this ... problem with causality. It's not clear that cause and effect mean anything when referring to events of more than 40 years ago. I have chosen to believe that cause and effect work normally most of the time, but there are times when it breaks down, possibly due to some kind of technological disaster that threw reality out of whack. I like the idea that there's lots of junk from earlier productions carelessly strewn around in odd places, such as underground, underwater, and in the wastelands. If you've ever been backstage, you'll know what I mean.

LIGHTS, ETC: In my mind, there's a question as to whether the lights and other overhead junk exist all the time or not. We seemed to go from Paradigm City as part of a real world to a very brief period where Big O and Big Venus were all that existed. Whether "all the world's a stage" phase is an intermediate step between the world being fully real and being completely malleable is open to debate. In my fan fiction, I've chosen to believe that the lights and superstructure do not exist after Angel does her stuff.
Mr. Peabody 11-26-2003 04:35 PM
I agree with Clockwork Tomato that the ending of season 2 was purposely left unanswered. It's left for the viewers to decide what was real and what was not.

My theories:

ANGEL: Gordon Rosewater's daughter, and killed by him. God makes Angel the director prior to The Event, and gives her the power to leave the control room and decide Paradigm City's fate.

PARADIGM CITY: It's a real city. Formerly known as New York City. Destroyed in the Megadeus War. God commanded Gordon Rosewater to rebuild the city, Gordon turned his back on God. To punish Gordon, God caused The Event and made everyone but Gordon sleep 40 years.

THE ENDING: Roger negotiates Paradigm's survival. Angel sets the city back the way it was before. Angel is no longer the director. She's decided to live again.

THE ROSEWATER'S: Dead.

ALAN GABRIEL: Dead.

UNDERGROUND: I believe it was intended to be a bomb shelter, treasure storage, and Memory vault.

THE LIGHTS: The dome lights were intended to replace the sun which was blocked out by clouds and dust from the Negadeus War. I think the later lights were actually sensors (graph) to show Angel what in Paradigm City was damaged and where buildings were supposed to stand.
A Clockwork Tomato 11-26-2003 07:11 PM
For what it's worth, I don't believe that "the Megadeus War" really happened -- that is, not as described in Gordon's version of METROPOLIS. He claimed it was all a lie.

Having seen the world change as a result of Big Venus and Angel, there's no particular reason to believe that there IS much continuity between the time, if any, before 40 years ago and the Paradigm we saw. Gordon said as much in Act 26. The stage was set and the people were set in motion. Presumably, whatever stage had been there before 40 years ago had been struck, and there's a discontinuity between the two.

My compromise viewpoint is to guess that the world has been restarted a number of times -- not the same way over and over, but in different ways -- but that while cause and effect are violated, a lot of the props, scenery, personalities, and memories are carried over from one production to the next. So you get leftover Megadeuses, visions of events that never really happened (not in this version of the world), and the same cast of characters in new roles.

What Angel did in Act 26 was to decree that there WOULD be continuity from one production to the next. In other words, she decided that the next act would be Act 27, not Act 1 of a new production. That's how I figure it.
SharpDressedMan 11-26-2003 07:57 PM
In the end I believe that both Angel and Gordon were nothing more than memories. Big Venus is the reincarnation of one of the previous Big O's from another loop and that Angel has more to do with the Big O than we actually learn in the second season. I think it's my biggest hope that there is a reason that the creators left so many questions unanswered. That way we can almost certainly have a shot at a third season, that is if the second season went off as well as I think it did. Honestly, in a show where I thought I almost knew everything I needed to be a genius... well I felt blind and stupified. But anyone else think that was what was intended? Heck remember episode 13 the first time you saw it? I don't know about everyone else but I couldn't help but find myself on the edge of my couch asking what just happened. I guess someday there will be final answers but the only thing I pray is that they won't leave us with more questions on top of the solutions... MY HEAD! It burns! Anyone else think this show makes you think so much your brain gets more wrinkles? Gawd.
dreamangel1130 11-27-2003 01:20 PM
Well, first of all, i guess i should thank you Big Grin But I think it would be a lot more fun if there was some supernatural explanation. I mean, is the entire show actually a show? Ok, that was kinda confusing. Duh, it's a show.

But what I mean is: Is Paradigm City actually an actual show? (That wasn't much better) Remember when they showed Angel and Roger and Dorothy in that backstage room, watching that scene where Roger says all that dramatic crap? That most likely means that the entire show was a set-up. None of the episodes were real, apparently. But that would make a stupid ending wouldn't it? So maybe that's not it. Confused

Hmm....the producers/writers/director must know something, because what are they gonna do? They better make a third season, or else I'm gonna cry....seriously, I will.

Alan Gabriel: Remember how like Schwarzwald was "dead" but then somehow either came back as a ghost or maybe he never died? What if the same thing happens to Alan Gabriel. And Vera apparently commited suicide, but you never actually see her dead, so maybe she never died.

Anyway, those were just some things I was wondering about...
Mr. Peabody 11-27-2003 01:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dreamangel1130

But what I mean is: Is Paradigm City actually an actual show? (That wasn't much better) Remember when they showed Angel and Roger and Dorothy in that backstage room, watching that scene where Roger says all that dramatic crap? That most likely means that the entire show was a set-up. None of the episodes were real, apparently. But that would make a stupid ending wouldn't it? So maybe that's not it. Confused



It's a show, but it really isn't a show! Shocked

What I mean is, Angel is the director, but she also has the power to leave the control room and mingle as she chooses. Angel becomes attracted to Roger, and forgets about the control room. Without a director, everything goes haywire, that's why there's a crisis every episode of season 2.

I think Roger and Dorothy discovered the control room and found Angel watching Roger's speech on a loop, unsure if she should destroy Paradigm City or listen to Roger. Roger places a reasurring hand on Angel's shoulder and she decides to spare Paradigm City and reset it to the begining. Angel also decides to live again and accompanies Roger and Dorothy back to the surface. Since Paradigm City has been reset, there's no longer a need for a director.
Executor 11-27-2003 03:03 PM
Act 26 wasn't insightful or thought-provoking. It was nonsensical. They may as well have had Roger transform into a turnip, for all the sense it made. Then we'd see people on these boards saying:

"Duh, the turnip clearly represents Jesus, and Dorothy being revealed as a man represents society's views on gender roles. Clearly the writers always meant it this way, and if you don't get it, you're an idiot."

Really, how stupid and incoherent would #26 have had to be before you decided it just wasn't worth it?
Zopwx2 11-27-2003 03:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Executor
Act 26 wasn't insightful or thought-provoking. It was nonsensical. They may as well have had Roger transform into a turnip, for all the sense it made. Then we'd see people on these boards saying:

"Duh, the turnip clearly represents Jesus, and Dorothy being revealed as a man represents society's views on gender roles. Clearly the writers always meant it this way, and if you don't get it, you're an idiot."

Really, how stupid and incoherent would #26 have had to be before you decided it just wasn't worth it?


I'm starting to agree with you, enough time has passed that even the smartest among us have only come up with vague theories as to what happend.

Did they really have this ending in mind when the started the show, or did they just have no idea how to end it..

I mean they throw in a bunch of new things and then just end it: Superdome, lizard archetype battle flashback, gears on the bottom of the ocean, roger shaking gordons hand in the past, etc.

So many loose ends, and nothing is explained.
YZEtc 11-27-2003 03:21 PM
Sign me up, too, guys.
It took me a just couple of seconds to start asking myself:
"That's it?!
What were those beatniks smoking?"
R and D 11-27-2003 03:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dreamangel1130
Did anyone get anything out of the second season...especially episode 26? Sheesh!
Like, what is Angel? A megadeuce? An angel? A memory? Is Paradigm City really an illusion? What was with that thing at the end when everything was like...reset? What happened to Alex...and Gordon? How did The Metropolis write itself? Do you think Alan Gabriel is actually dead? Who made that place underground? Why was it so modern? What were those things falling from the sky? That were all light-ful...and exploded on contact on the ground? If you have any answers, please reply!
Confused


well al of us have our own theories on what angel is, is alen dead, etc.
the second series answered most of my questions from the 1st series. when act 26 showed and when it ended, i was like OMGWTF?! Shocked that act added more questions left unanswered. so after giving u this long, useless explanation, i shall provide u a simple solution.

write cartoon network for a 3rd series or movie of some sort. Pleased

here is the address:
Cartoon Network Programming
1050 Techwood Drive
Atlanta, GA 30318

i think i have send three letters already. noooo.....make that four. i sent one out yesterday. Pleased Big Grin
dreamangel1130 11-27-2003 05:55 PM
You know what? I think that I'm more confused than ever even before I started this thread. I mean, everybody's theories all seem as perfectly logical as the next. And the worst part is, I don't know whose seems the best. Sooooo......

Maybe I'll just stay confused until they either make a movie or a third season. Who knows? I also wasn't expecting to get any replys to this. I don't have any imagination (or time) to start a thread, but this one isn't half bad.
A Clockwork Tomato 11-27-2003 06:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dreamangel1130
You know what? I think that I'm more confused than ever even before I started this thread. I mean, everybody's theories all seem as perfectly logical as the next. And the worst part is, I don't know whose seems the best.


Here's a thought experiment for you: R-D is the last episode in Season 1, and it leaves tons of things up in the air, just like Act 26 did. Watch R-D on Monday and ask yourself how you'd feel if it were the last episode of Big O, and you didn't know whether there would ever be a Season 2 or not.

After all, that's the boat everyone was in when the show first aired.

I think that with Act 26 it's just the same. Instead of closing the casket on the show and giving the eulogy, it left enough loose plot threads and unanswered questions to keep the show going for another 26 episodes at least. I think this is a good thing.

When Sunrise does Season 3 (and I'll bet there will be one), they'll resolve lots of stuff, but of course they'll replace the solved mysteries with unsolved ones to keep the show from going flat. So, no matter how many seasons Big O runs, we will never learn the ultimate meaning of life, the universe, and everything.
BigPrime 11-27-2003 08:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dreamangel1130
You know what? I think that I'm more confused than ever even before I started this thread. I mean, everybody's theories all seem as perfectly logical as the next. And the worst part is, I don't know whose seems the best. Sooooo......

Maybe I'll just stay confused until they either make a movie or a third season. Who knows? I also wasn't expecting to get any replys to this. I don't have any imagination (or time) to start a thread, but this one isn't half bad.


I think confusion may be one of the things the creators were going for. There are many theories and they're all plausible, because there can be. THough Schwartzwald would deny it, there can be many possible truths, and the profusion of theories reflects that. Everyone interperets things differently and, for the time being, they're all right. All that matters is that it feels right to you. When and if a third season is made, things will become clearer in regards to some questions, but as always, new questions will be asked. In the end, I think they don't want to force-feed us answers. They want us to use the grey-matter in our heads and figure stuff out for ourselves. Smile
Executor 11-28-2003 02:21 AM
Big difference between Acts 13 and 26. At the end of 13, we wanted to know what would happen next. At the end of 26, we wanted to know what the hell we just saw. There's a difference between a cliffhanger and simple sloppy storytelling.

And make no mistake, that's what we're dealing with in Act 26.

When the show's conclusion has to be left to fan speculation... When those fans take weeks and still can't decide on one accepted theory... That's a failure on the part of the author to communicate his story. And pulling a deus ex machina (Big Venus) completely out of thin air in the last ten minutes of the series is just plain bad writing.
Sharpshooter005 11-28-2003 02:51 AM
quote:
When the show's conclusion has to be left to fan speculation... When those fans take weeks and still can't decide on one accepted theory... That's a failure on the part of the author to communicate his story.


While this is a valid point, and I wont disagree fully. I will say perhaps that was the intention of the author. Its either sloppy storytelling or an overly open-ended ending, take your pick.

I will say, you can find people dissecting and disagreeing over even the most obvious of endings (case in point, Noir. People endlessly speculate what the two gunshots at the end were supposed to mean, despite how its fairly obvious, even bringing the idea of a dual suicide into it when theres absolutely NO evidence to support that...yeah, maybe Im missing something, but I dont see how a few lines about drinking tea translate into "lets blow each others brains out!"). So perhaps its just the habits of an overzealous fanbase.

The "deus ex machina" of big venus DID seem quite convenient and utterly odd. As much as I enjoyed episode 26, and the discussions on this site it spawned, a large part of me felt it was simply weird for the sake of weird, and meant to produce some "mystique" to cover any flaws in it.

This just goes back to something others have pointed out before, which is that up until around season 2 the creators seemed unsure of the course they wanted the plot to follow (which makes sense, since the very existance of a second season was fairly unexpected, and due to a demand from the viewers).
OMGWTF 11-28-2003 03:53 PM
Act 13 and Act 26 are different in that in Act 13, the open-ending stayed within the boundaries of their story. In Act 26, we were presented with something that just left a big "huh, where did that come from" that almost felt like it was brought in from another series. I've never seen Noir, but the way you describe it, it is like Act 13. The speculations are still within the boundaries of the plot.

In Act 26, they tied up some episodic loose ends, but makes no attempt to explain, justify, or even touch the whole picture. So as great as the second season was, plot-explanation-wise, we don't know anything more than we did after Act 13.
Lady Tesser 11-28-2003 04:19 PM
I prefer open interpretation - it leaves it open for the fanfic community to write what they think. (Like the end of Ranma 1/2 being Akane and Ranma's botched wedding - but the next morning, they get up and go to school like nothing happened.)

Besides, everything handed on a silver plate in nice little explanations to cover everything leads to brain atrophy ... in this instance, paradigm does mean 'world view'.
Zopwx2 11-28-2003 04:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Tesser
Besides, everything handed on a silver plate in nice little explanations to cover everything leads to brain atrophy ... in this instance, paradigm does mean 'world view'.


Silver Platter!? Stop implying that we are stupid becuase we want some closure. The ending solves nothing. In fact they add more weird crap then suddenly screw everything up. Sure you can still watch a show and have fun trying to solve the mystery, but eventually you'll want an answer. Its like a riddle with no answer.

My analogy:

A detetictive is solving a murder. Throughout the whole story he finds more and more clues and he gets closer and closer, and you're waiting for the big mystery to reveal itself then, BAM, whoops it was all a dream. Now its over. The End.

Want some loose ends: Superdome, lizard archetype battle flashback, gears on the bottom of the ocean, roger shaking gordons hand in the past, Wainrights invlovment in megadeus construction, the archetype in ep4, the stage that was underground, the model city, the people that helped norman repair big o, cast in the name of freaking god ye not guilty, dastun meeting himself as a child, angel at the control room, what the hell was venus and why did it have wings in the flashback, the wires the bigs used to combine with their pilots, whats the deal with osrail (the ghost megadues), and dagon (the water megadeus), what exactly were the tomato experiments, what really fell from the sky in day of the advent, why was wainright building more dorothies, what in the hell was RD? [well actually its been implied that r-d and sybil rowan were used by the union to kill for alex rosewater as part of their deal] but that brings me to another thing, what was the deal between the union and alex rosewater? What did schwarzwald know? If paradigm city is really a show/simulation WHy would they have remains of broken megadeii like archetype and osrail, what was that big holodeck thing at the end, and a whole bunch of other stuff...

But you see alot of people have tried really hard to tie it all together and we still can't agree on a simple answer.

If this show turns out to be one giant religous metaphor that never solves the face value story then I will be dissapointed. I managed to swallow this sort of thing with Evangelion, but big o pulled one of these at the last second.
A Clockwork Tomato 11-28-2003 05:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by zopwx2
If this show turns out to be one giant religous metaphor that never solves the face value story then I will be disapointed.


If anything, the show is anti-religious, since it's the VILLAINS who are fired with zeal and a sense of destiny, while the heroes try to muddle through a day at a time and do what's right. This is exemplified by Dastun's attack on Big Fau. The attitude can be summed up as, "I don't care if he is a god. He can't do this to my town."