BIG O religion/God connections -(facinating, revealing stuff)...Season 3 and 4 News...

Pythagoras 01-10-2004 05:01 AM
I'm not quite sure if the show's writers are going for a complete Christian allegory but the arguments here on this thread have given me some ideas. For one, it does seem rather clear that Angel (not her real name?) has some sort of Satanic connection:
1) She has direct control over the world of Paradigm. The devil is repeatedly called by Jesus and Paul as "the prince of this world." What if the resets are bad and are part of a satanic control system?
2) Her director's place is located down below. Many sects (esp. Protestants) believe hell is located beneath the earth. (Though it never really says in the Bible where hell actually is.)
3) The director's controls are on floor 666.
4) In the passage from Revelations 12 I quoted above, Satan is said to have been cast down from heaven and is compared to a dragon. If we take the premodern belief that heaven is supposed to be above the earth (since the sky is often called the heavens), this would seem to indicate that after being cast down to earth, the devil wasn't able to return. Was this because his wings had been plucked?

Look at the book of Revelations, in there, there is someone called the false prophet who is said to serve Satan. I believe that this is Alex Rosewater. He wants to become the god of the new world and wants people to admire him for his wondrous works (see Revelation 13:13) on their television sets. But he is a false prophet and not a true dominus. Thus he must sell his soul to Big Fau.

Who is Schwartzwald? I believe that he is a combined version of the two prophets who are supposed to run around in Jerusalem (Paradigm) during the end times. Why? Check out this passage from Revelation 11:

quote:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.


The allegory isn't meant to be perfect but we see that they're clothed ver poorly (bandages), they use fire as a weapon, that they are compared to trees (a megadeus, Big Duo), that they prophesy (i.e. try to tell people about the truth that their lives are a lie), that they die (see Act #16) but miraculously, their bodies (Big Duo) are called upward to heaven (i.e. crash into the superstructure above the city). After Schwartzwald's mechanical body goes up to the dome, the city is wrecked in Act 26.

* I still am wondering who Roger is, who the Union is, who Gordon is, and why Roger is asking the prince of this world, Angel for mercy. I think it may be because Roger isn't meant to be a Christ figure. In Angel's case, perhaps the writers wanted to explore the idea that perhaps she is merely the pawn of an evil creator who asserts its control in the world through the Big Venus (called Lucifer in Japan) and Angel is perhaps the unwitting child of evil. Perhaps the end of Act 26 is meant to convey that she has broken the cycle of resetting contrary to the wishes of her real parent (the evil Creator). The authors may be borrowing from the idea of the rapture in which the world is turned over to Satan for a time prior to the second coming of Christ. Perhaps this is the reason why things in Paradigm are so bad all the time.

Or, it may be that Angel is meant to be shown as evil for her selfishness in continually resetting things. The third possibility is that they show writers just wanted to follow the vague outline I discussed above the asterisk and then change things to suit their own story.
Pythagoras 01-10-2004 05:26 AM
More support for the Angel-Satan connection from the book of Isaiah, chapter 13: In the Japanese version, the reset robot is called Lucifer, in the English version, it's called Big Venus. In fact, they are not contradictory meanings since Venus is known as the second brightest "star" in sky after the sun. In a sense, one could say that Venus wants to become the sun.

quote:
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?


Perhaps the creator of the Paradigm world is good and that at some point in the past, Big Venus had sucked Angel into it, allowing it to preserve its essence through her (with apologies to Sauron) even though it had been banished underground. Big Venus is the force of evil in Paradigm and was buried deep underground (hence the fear of everyone of going down there). But it escaped and in the process released other megadei who had been dead. Big O wants to battle Big Venus because he knows it is evil but Roger knows that there is some of Angel inside of it and tries to negotiate with her.


All that said, I'm not quite sure what to believe about the show's true nature as to what the authors were actually going for, but Big O does seem to be rife with apocalyptic allusions once you really think about them. I think there's definitely something in all of the stuff everyone's posted on this thread and the director threads but the only way of knowing for certain is if additional episodes or a movie is made. It most likely is that the authors were inspired by different stories and characters and wanted to kind of weave them together. I think the Schwartzwald and Angel are very similar to the things in Revelations, but most likely, the authors were not going totally for a roman a clef.
Zopwx2 01-10-2004 12:05 PM
Yes this thread is back. One of the many in depth discussion that happend near the end of big o that went way over my head....
Seraphim 01-10-2004 02:13 PM
I may not be good at discussion about Big O's religious contexts, but I am good at Latin, and I should say that "Duo" does not mean "Devil."

Duo is the nominative, vocative, and accusative form (in both masculine and feminine) of the number two. You might be confusing this with "dei", which is the genitive singular, nominative plural and vocative plural of "God". On a sidenote, the singular nominative and vocative for "God" is deus. Megadeus. Get it?

EDIT: The closest Latin words to "Fau" is "Fax", which means a torch or flame, and "Faux" which means the throat/neck kind of area. Neither of these make much sense, so I don't really think Fau is supposed to be from Latin in any way.
Pythagoras 01-10-2004 02:35 PM
quote:
EDIT: The closest Latin words to "Fau" is "Fax", which means a torch or flame, and "Faux" which means the throat/neck kind of area. Neither of these make much sense, so I don't really think Fau is supposed to be from Latin in any way.


It may be that Fau is supposed to be derived from the French word "faux" meaning false since Fau proves to be a false god to Alex Rosewater.
Pythagoras 01-10-2004 02:41 PM
After thinking about it a bit more, I think that the creator of Paradigm is supposed to be good but that the overall motif of "Big O" is one of contrasts and the relations between men and the means of power.

I think that Big Venus is evil and had been using Angel. Venus is linked to the devil of Paradigm. As for the God of Paradigm, I don't believe we have seen him/her yet but Roger is either its avatar or represents man trying to manage to exist in the titanic struggles of good and evil. Big O is good and is linked to the God.

If there is a third/fourth season or movie, the God of Paradigm will be revealed in it, I'm pretty sure.
Mega Dominus 01-10-2004 03:57 PM
Why would the Creator of Paradigm City possess any idea of Good/Evil anyway?

Yes, the religious/mythological/spiritual terms in relation to the overall plot of the show might have that conflict in mind. But that does not mean that the Creator meant for that to happen.

It could have come of its own "free will" (used loosely here), but I don't think I can elaborate any further. My theological limit ends here. Sweatdrop
ix prefect 01-16-2004 01:45 AM
I've just started watching the series, therefore don't really have much of a right to talk.
ix prefect 01-16-2004 02:17 AM
Sorry...
RebeccaSHF 01-16-2004 01:41 PM
I had someone point out to me once that Roger, Dorothy, and Big O all seemed to operate as one unit. In that case, it is easy to draw a parallel between them and the trinity of the Bible. One could interpret Big O as the "god" figure, Roger as the son (he's the human form and is attempting to save Paradigm City), and Dorothy as the spirit (She communicates with the megadeuses).
Malkhos 01-16-2004 02:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_44
I think its stupid when people try to bring in refrences that aren't there. Whats stupider is thinking that big ear wear a Yamica


You don't, by any chance, mean yamulke, do you?

What makes you think the reference were not intentional on the part of the author (allegory)? Suppose the show was closely based on the Gathas of Zoroaster, or the Baal cycle from Ugarit, you'd hardly be in a position to tell whether it was or not wold you? Do you know anything more about the Biblical tradition that you can make such a judgement?

As I've said before in other threads, there is Biblical symbolsim in Big O, but also symbolism that appeals to Greek Philosophy (e.g. Roger's two katabasis episodes--his underground journeys that help reveal to him his true nature; the fact that the world as known ot the senses is an illusion), to Gnositicsm (the Fallen Angel as demiurge or creator), and even the Kabbalah. It is obvious that the author of Big O ( I can never remeber his name) made an extensive study of Western spirituality, not just Christinaity--not surprising since I doubt he is a Christian. In case anyone is curious about my backgorund, I'm a PhD candidate writing about the interface between Platonism and Christianity in Late Antiquity (specificallly in Porphyry's Contra Christianos, Iamblichus' Vita Pythagorica, and Eusebius' Evangelica Praeperatio, so I have some idea what I am talking about.

I reserve also the possibility that other symbolism in the show might refer to Buddhism or Shinto, spiritual traditions about which I am in no position to judge.
Malkhos 01-16-2004 02:15 PM
quote:
Yeah, that's right. The Japanese or, rather, anime creators (at least, in my opinion) do have a good deal of respect for Judeo-Christian themes, or perhaps they just feel it would make for very interesting storylines (which I think, when done correctly, is true). You do see a lot of Anime with religious undertones, and more often than not that religious undertone is Judeo-Christian based. Some Anime even go the the extreme with this...Evangelion, for example, has A LOT of Judeo-Christian references. It is, more or less, based on the ideas of Judaism and Christianity.


Unfortunately I have never seen Evangelion, but the word itself is simply the English transliteration of the Greek word meaning Gospel.
Malkhos 01-16-2004 02:19 PM
quote:
What possesses a man who already controls the entire paradigm world to be willing and able to find memories unto which will turn the world upside down to do so without a glimpse of compassion or doubt amongst himself?


It is the fact that he controls the whole world that makes him heartless and incapapble of self-examiantion. This is a main theme of Wagner's Ring and of Tolinen's Ring. If follow the Christian theme of this thread, he is the Anti-Christ, the evil caraciture of the Roman Emperoro as Corrupt World Ruler.
Malkhos 01-16-2004 02:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ROnin
Big Venus is in effect not the devil as many here are proclaiming but he is in fact CHRIST. I know this since if he was the Devil he would of come to enslave humanity to follow his will but Venus doesnt do that. Venus arrives to cleanse the world, that God l created, of the anarchy and destruction that had befallen PC due to Alex and humans egotistical nature which ultimately fueled their own self-destruction. The arrival of Big Venus represents the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST following the apocalypse as Venus comes to rectify the evils of man by cleansing the world of all the destruction they brought.

And by restarting the world in a different form man has once again be saved by Jesus/Venus and allowed to start anew.

...

And for those who think I left out Roger you could argue that he represents the part of humanity in general who are actually good just people (people outside of the domes,the ones who still sing to God even though they dont know why)who do not make up the other more sinful part of man(the part who fell victim to their own human nature,the people in the domes). Roger tries to fight against the judgement of God as he wants them to be pardoned for their sins just kinda of like how Christ died for humans to save them from their own fate.

Overall the Robots/Dominuses ....


Except for the fact that Roger is obviously the Christ figure. In Christianity Satan lacks the pwoer to destroy or create the world, that is why I think we msut appeal to Gnsoticism to explain the Fallen Angel's destruction and creation of the world.

incidentally...
The plural of dominus is domini, the giant robots are called megadeus, plural, megadei
Malkhos 01-16-2004 02:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Paradigm Dog
Currently we just don't have enough data and facts to figure out to whole truth, only theorize. I belive there's more to this whole thing than we know, becuase ALOT has not been touched on within the series that was foreshadowed or presented. Ronin, I agree, the BIG O is obviously a story about the end times. However, I'm not convinced we're at the end of 'revelations' yet. Man still seems to be caught in a loop of conflict, suffering, and destruction. The strings of humanity are being pulled around and abused on this Stage from what I've seen. The human soul is trying to break free, as evident of the Roger that died (who knows how many) but still, in actuality, the most important elements have not changed yet. We don't exactly know where we are in 'revelations'. Given the loop and the still appranetly dreary state of Paradigm, I don't think we're at the end yet. And to furhter that point, the writers from BIG O are telling a METAPHORICAL telling of revelations/bible, and therefore may/are most likely putting forth their own interpretations of the history found in revelations. We can only theorize what we know, not what the masters of Paradigm know. lol. And after a while, as you mentioned, it hurts the brain! lol.

As for your theory of Roger being a robot. I think there have been Roger robots in the past maybe, but this one and this goes for Alex as well, are cloned, (natural) human beings. Roger bleeds quite a good deal in ep. 13 and 14 and fears for his life when Alan Gabriel puts a sword to his throat later on. Roger has shown no traits of being either an android or a cyborg. Him and Alex were a part of the Gordon Rosewater experements, implanting memories (where did he get them if Paradigm is completely a stage with all memories being destroyed every so many years?!-leads me to believe there's more to all this) as were many of the foreigners originally. (I think the 'memory-angel' was even involved somehow in that according to Gordon-don't recall that part). Anyways, good theory, makes a good point, but the evidence is not toally there. I don't know what those final flashbacks of episode 26 meant with the android Rogers and stuff, but I think that was not meant to be answered this season. I feel the creators tried to wrap things up as best they could so it could have an end if they never got a chance to do more, hence the 'come to terms'. But if they do get a chance, I believe there's much more to tell. Definitely more material to touch on as I see it.


But we are not seing the end times. The world is destroyed and then recreated in a comparable form. There is nothing biblical about this. The cyclical destruction and recreation of the world is, however, a Stoic idea, that also found currecny in the Kabbalah.
Malkhos 01-16-2004 02:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zola
quote:
Originally posted by Paradigm Dog
As for your theory of Roger being a robot. I think there have been Roger robots in the past maybe, but this one and this goes for Alex as well, are cloned, (natural) human beings. Roger bleeds quite a good deal in ep. 13 and 14 and fears for his life when Alan Gabriel puts a sword to his throat later on. Roger has shown no traits of being either an android or a cyborg.


The thing about the Roger robots is that there was nothing that I saw to give us scale. They could have been toys, there is no evidence to prove that they were full size and no evidence to prove they weren't because we see nothing to give us scale. (unless you think that's a switch there on the right as they zoom out so you see more of the assembly line)

That section was actually really, really interesting because we saw several resets (I'm using the flashes of light to demarcate the different resets):

1)A normal-looking Paradigm city, flash to the pic of Roger and Gordon, Paradigm in flames with the armies of marching megadei, seemingly fighting the hyrdra and Big Venus hitting everything with laser fire with Roger apparently dead in the cockpit of the Big O, his left eye blacked out (although it's hard to say whether it is missing or in shadow, I tend to favor missing because the animators are not that un-subtle about their shading). I did some checking, and Odin also sacrificed his left eye. Do bear in mind that there are a few kicking around out there that claim he sacrificed the right one, the one I linked to seems pretty comprehensive, though.
2) A normal Paradigm city that is suddenly filling with people. It's revealed to be the world of Roger the Wanderer.
3)The assembly line is shown
4)Angel's hands on the video screen? (I see pink, but that's the only time we see those lace cuffs) Roger is seen calling Big O, then there is a cut to a tiny Dorothy doll. Was she a toy given life? Angel watching the scene of her childhood played out before her eyes.

We see the light one more time and then Dorothy is on her way. Is she again acting as Christ and interceding in Roger's certain death?

Falcon7 is going to be posting a link to Revelations 10, apparently it almost describes the first reset scene.


Whether Roger is a Robor, clone, etc., is immaterial. What is important is the symbolic representation of the fact that human life as we experiecne it is false and illusory, and we are not as we think we are; i.e. we are not our bodies at all, but immaterial spirits, a turth which our very material senses keep us from knowing, keep us from remembering (get it?), since the spirit in us is immortal and must have existed prior to the time it was imprisioned in our artificial bodies.

I must admit I laughed (good naturedly) when you said that you had had to check whether Odin sacrificed one of his eyes--it seems so strange to someone who read the Eddas when he was ten and has listened to the Ring about a dozen times a year every year since he was 12.
Malkhos 01-16-2004 02:49 PM
quote:

2) Her director's place is located down below. Many sects (esp. Protestants) believe hell is located beneath the earth. (Though it never really says in the Bible where hell actually is.)


Actually it does. Satan is the Prince of the Powers of the Air. Satan and the devils live in the Heavens above the earth, in other words are the planets that rule the world through astrology--and this isn't Chrisitan, this was an almost universal beieif in the first century. This is why Jesus's sign was a new star, something the Demons did not understand and could not control--it literally broke the Demons' power because the astrological cofigurations they used to rule were thrown out of whack by the new star (if you don't believe me go read the second century father Origen). Much of this is lost sight of today, but it is pretty clearly how the texts would have been understood at the time of their composition. God, of course, lives in the super-celestial heaven beyond the visible stars--beyond the lights in the cieling above Paradigm City, if you will.


What you siad (not quoted) about Schwatzwald and the two propehts is actually quite clever.
Cool_Vash 01-16-2004 03:39 PM
Well, as for the elevator scene, I wonder if that's misleading. We see the floor numbers flipping up to right before floor "666", but then we cut to a scene with Angel and Gordon. Why do I mention this you ask? Because, if this scene is happening after the floor changes to 666, then they are still continuing on in the elevator past floor 666. now, from what I can tell, IIRC, the thing seems to change floors every second. Anyone able to time that scene between the two of them and see where that would place them when the elevator stops?
ix prefect 01-16-2004 06:10 PM
Sorry...
Pythagoras 01-16-2004 06:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Malkhos
quote:

2) Her director's place is located down below. Many sects (esp. Protestants) believe hell is located beneath the earth. (Though it never really says in the Bible where hell actually is.)


Actually it does. Satan is the Prince of the Powers of the Air. Satan and the devils live in the Heavens above the earth, in other words are the planets that rule the world through astrology--and this isn't Chrisitan, this was an almost universal beieif in the first century. This is why Jesus's sign was a new star, something the Demons did not understand and could not control--it literally broke the Demons' power because the astrological cofigurations they used to rule were thrown out of whack by the new star (if you don't believe me go read the second century father Origen). Much of this is lost sight of today, but it is pretty clearly how the texts would have been understood at the time of their composition. God, of course, lives in the super-celestial heaven beyond the visible stars--beyond the lights in the cieling above Paradigm City, if you will.


What you siad (not quoted) about Schwatzwald and the two propehts is actually quite clever.


Thanks for the compliment. I have heard of the Prince of the Powers of the Air line before (Ephesians 2:2). However, I think this was likely an argument by Paul that Satan has some control over the elements in the same way that he is repeatedly called the Prince of This World.

In the Old Testament, particularly in the book of Psalms, there are repeated references to Hell as being a pit, and being remote from man and God. However, there are references in the Book of Revelations that there apparently is another place called Outer Darkness which Satan will be banished to following the second coming of Christ.

I'm still convinced that none of the Biblical references in Big O are nothing more than allusions, things put in the story to make it more intriguing and to give depth to the characters. All that said, I think that the resetting is not meant to be seen as a positive thing. True, things had been mostly destroyed by Big O and Big Fau, but at the same time, we see from Roger's speech (which was poorly translated I believe) that these resets are damaging to everyone.

Throw in the fact that Big Venus is called Lucifer in the Japanese version and I get the impression that it's designed to be perceived as bad--though perhaps not of Satanic caliber.