Episode 26 Discussion: "The Show Must Go On"

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Originally posted by Sessomaru d) Angel is the fallen angel - Lucifer, and she created Paradigm City so that she could forget her fall. She wrote the book.

But Angel IS NOT the true author! When Gordon asks the true author to finish the book he is not refering to Angel.

He may be refering to Big Venus, or something else, but Angel is not the Author/Director/God. She is only what her name implies, an Angel, a servant.

She just played her part like everyone else. She just had a more active role.

So...Confusing...Can't...Understand...

ah, so... let me see if I've gotten any of this straight.

Roger DID win with his argument at the end - the "restart" is, in fact, more for the City than for Roger since he doesn't have his watch on and therefore is not "sworn" to Big O - however, I doubt he would just leave the big fella; probably just chose to not wear the watch.

He is still a Negotiator and Paradigm City exists now and once again, rebuilt by Angel after he won his argument. Angel and Dorothy are standing there watching him drive by and enjoying the fact that the world is, in fact, continuing. Angel could have hit the big red reset button, but in fact allowed Roger to remain alive and with the memories (thus the lack of the watch) and rebuilt the city to allow it to continue. Having memories is nice, but you can't let it overwhelm your entire life, like it did Gordon Rosewater.

Beck is just nuts. But in a Good Way.

I like it.

quote:

Originally posted by Name Of God quote: Originally posted by Sessomaru d) Angel is the fallen angel - Lucifer, and she created Paradigm City so that she could forget her fall. She wrote the book. But Angel IS NOT the true author! When Gordon asks the true author to finish the book he is not refering to Angel.

I thought it was pretty clear Gordon was talking to Angel, but it went by pretty fast, so I can't swear to it. What I recall was:

1) Gordon takes Angel to Floor 666.

2) We get an awesome shot of Angel's legs as they walk off the elevator. (Sorry, off-topic).

3) Angel grows wings and flies off to the edge of the grid.

4) As a few feathers fall around him, Gordon holds up the book and makes a plea to "the true author of the book" and fades away.

5) The next time we see the book, the author is listed as "Angel Rosewater."

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Roger wasn't negotiating to keep memories... he was negotiating to keep things as they were...

Roger was negotiating to not have the memories erased...and thus have the people of Paradigm use the knowledge of their memories to change their roles within Paradigm (as Gordon alluded to when mentioning his agreement/contract with Roger). Thus, keeping the memories would also keep things the way they were...as if Big Venus had not erased memories and not erased Paradigm or reset the city. Thats my interpretation of what Roger was negotiating for, and I think it fits with the small plot points about contracts and Directors and so forth...

Personally, I believe Big Venus/Angel simply corrected the destroyed city, by putting it back to a habitable place. I dont think it erased memories of everyone. Keeping intact the memories allow the inhabitants of Paradigm to exercise free will when "remembering" their past. The smile Angel had at the end can be seen as her agreeing with Roger to have free will in regard to memories and the past, and that humans should exercise it if they want memories or not. Also, it can be seen as Angel agreeing with Roger to not simply be God or a director, but also to break the mold and live within the environment she created or rules over. (I truly dont believe Angel is Lucifer even after reading Revelations and the subtle hints that are dropped about it and her...)

Seeing Dorothy there as well, can be seen as a clue that Roger was successful, both in saving memories and keeping the world unchanged. I guess you can have things unchanged with a memory loss, but for some reason I see the two connected and related to each other...

The "We have come to terms" slide definitely can be interpretted that the agreement was made between Big Venus/Angel/God/Director and Roger. However, I think the line at the end when he's driving through the city as if it were act 1 was a subtle nod to trying to keep things a mystery, as if possibly the memories were erased and the inhabitants of Paradigm slipped back into their old "roles" within the city... "My name is Roger Smith, and I am a negotiator..."

I, however, think that the memories werent erased and Roger and Angel came to an agreement to keep Paradigm the way it was...and life goes on....possibly, it wasnt episode 1 that was happening again, perhaps it was just another normal day in Paradigm, with Roger driving through the city doing his job....

(I didnt notice the whole watch thing on Roger's wrist...whether it was there or not, Ill have to look again...when it "reset" to episode 1)

I will admit out right that I have not been in the best of moods this past week or two, and that may have dampened the thrill of the ending for me by just a bit, but that being said.....

I very much enjoyed the "ending" (I'll explain the quotation marks further down ). It was left tastefully inconclusive to the extent that anyone can fill in the gaps and potentially be correct. In a sense, it reminds me of Lain - and considering the interviews and information I have gathered surronding the show's creation, it wouldn't surprise me if the resemblance is more than superficial . I'm a little surprised at the relative few posts that have been made in this thread so far; usually, by this time on Monday, it's already on page 11 or so.

Some standard stuff about the episode: I really liked the fight scene, although I wouln't go so far - as one member had done before - to label it the best fight ever, but it was great none the less . Roger really had his you-know-what handed to him at the beginning of that one . The Dorothy scene under the water was pretty funny - it's nice to see someone keep his sense of humor even in the face of possible impending death .

However, some things still nag me about the show. Considering the deal that Cartoon Network struck with Japan about the making of new episodes, it is possible that this "ending" was simply meant to be a prelude to a season three that may or may not already be in the making. I've always been skeptical about how Cartoon Network invisioned a season three, and still even now I at best have mixed feelings. I enjoy very much the ending as it is, but I'm not sure how much I still would if it was just an anticipation meter intentionally meant to be confusing in order to wet our appetites for an upcoming season three. But all this is just far-fetched speculation on my part that might not even be possible, so pay my doubts no mind .

Well, I've been reading other theories, and I'm intrigued, but as for my own, well, I"ve been working on that as an ongoing process, and for the moment, I'm still holding my cards close to chest. I'll need to research a few things, as well as rewatch some episodes of the show. I've been under some stress, so I'm not sure if I'll present anytime soon, but I had done the same thing with Lain, and it ended up being five pages long, so expect a decent-sized explication . So,

Results of Negotiation(didn't want to steal from Outlaw Skull ): We have(finially)come to terms on a good note .

I think it can all be tied to the fact Angel hates Dorothy because Roger chose her. Angel wrote Dorothy into an android role to discourage Roger but it didn't work because Roger said in ACT 22, I think, that if Dorothy had been human, he would have loved her. And Angel was so close with the hand holding!
I didn't even think about the "real" Roger having been sent to negotiate with the "real" Angel. Maybe she did lock herself away because of him, and he was sent to bring her to her senses.
And why, if all the virtual reality was so good, was there no sun? Could Angel have whipped one up, or was the whole discovery staged? And did the characters besides Roger, Dorothy, and Angel really have free will? Why would Angel let Schwarfelt (sp?) know about the whole thing? And what was Beck's role in it all?!?
Oh, and

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But how can that be if Roger was one of the tomatoes

Roger, Dorothy, and Angel weren't tomatoes. Gordon said that as well.
But yeah, I felt cheated as well. I would have actually liked it more if it ended with the megadeuces merging. I wonder what roles the real Roger, Dorothy, and Angel have beyond the control room. I need closure!

I don't know if all this stuff has been addressed yet, but here are a few more sticks to stir the pot:

So we learn that Paradigm City began as Angel's construct, but I think it started getting away from her when her "actors" started becoming self-aware. She creates this dark city where she's the only one with all the information (with a part for herself as a bad-ass Mata Hari type, complete with good-guy love interest), uses the megadeii to reset things every once in a while, but things get complicated when everyone starts behaving in ways she didn't direct or predict. She gives Dastun the subliminal trigger about Sybil Rowan, and he becomes determined to find out what he's remembering. She creates Alex Rosewater as some sort of omnipotent bazillionaire sponsor, and he decides he's king of the world. She sends Roger the android companion he needs to fully empower the megadeus, and he falls in love with her instead of Angel. (Which really sheds a new light on all those moments where Dorothy was threatened/injured/nearly killed, especially the Alan Gabriel stalkage in "Stripes" immediately after the love scene gone wrong.)

Beck may represent human nature in all this -- a wild card capable of regressing to lower-primate behavior (is this why he claps with his feet like a chimp?) but also capable of acting on higher and nobler impulses. Dorothy represents the growing/latent self-awareness of all Paradigm's actors, graphically so in the scene where she "rises from the dead" (she either still has her human soul or has grown a new one and is motivated by a consciousness outside her memory, outside even of the mechanisms that enable her to use it). And how much did Norman know, and when? He's starting to remind me of the Stage Manager from Our Town, perhaps the real god in the machine?

I loved it that everyone essentially changed their roles and acted as free agents, even Angel herself -- the final reset seems to include her only as a participant; perhaps Alex's example has convinced her to leave the doomed-godhead stuff to the real psychos.

For what it's worth, I think there's plenty of room to do the third season now, although I also think this ep is a reasonably satisfying ending if it never comes to term. There still are tons of unanswered questions about who was an actor and who wasn't, if any of the actors were "real" before Angel made them so, how Paradigm came to be -- hell, who was the human Dorothy and why and how did she die? Gordon said there were no memories from before 40 years ago, and yet Dorothy seems to have them anyway. Who's right? Not to mention the Union and the rest of the world outside the domes. What's more, we may learn that there's no director at all in this loop, that Paradigm will stand or fall according to the desires and motivations of its people. Where will that lead?

Stuff to think about. (I have.)

The more I examine this episode the more I'm convinced its a story framed in another story. -our question is then to decipher which story is significant, or barring that, which one resides in the foreground (forsaking emphasis of one over the other).
Think of this as a picture frame- one story is the frame, the other is the art inside the frame- they both exist at the same time and their spheres of influence converge. This metaphor has its own strengths and weaknesses since "art" implies superiority over say, a mere wooden frame- but many picture frames are a work of art in and of themselves, and I believe that to be the case with Big O.
we have:
A) the story of the Big O show's production staff
B) the story of Roger the negotiator

-perhaps like I said earlier, the principle characters remain the same (or only mildly modified) and the conditions around them are altered to keep the show fresh.
perhaps no bigs this time around.
perhaps roger and angel will fall in love this time.
look at survivor- the settings change from season to season, but the premise remains intact, as does the producer.

This whole last "Act" is reminiscent in form to Kurt Vonnegut's novel Slaughterhouse Five. A text comprised of two stories that tangle together but maintain separate identities (that of the alien abduction, and world war). The reader must decide which story is at play, indicating the lines are blurred. but we do have tell-tale signs, as one story ends up taking the majority of pages.

so we come to a situation where Big O is framed up as such. a show being produced, with several acts. a production or common cultural myth brought to life as referenced earlier in the thread by comic books etc...think of the universal themes in star wars- the journey of self discovery etc. Perhaps Big O is simmilar to our own cultural myths like Robin Hood.

Naturally the show itself is more intriguing on the surface to us than the production. Dig deeper and we see individuals pulling the strings: Angel, Roger, Dorothy- who can really say what their roles are outside of the show since we never get more than glimpses of the backstage scenes.

so I will posit that it is basically irrelevant if there ever was some apocalyptic revelation... furthermore it is unimportant if there really was a rewind or reboot (a comic term that I think fits here ) of the basic continuity- it was simply a season, perhaps with digitally produced characters that discover themselves along the way and attempt to make contact with their makers. god is their producer. So we start from scratch and follow these programs that have a level of awareness and self determination, realizing that their decisions will never be exactly the same for precisely what Norman terms the "human condition." So there may not be a loss of memories, and we in fact discover this is true at the end. What we are left with, I believe, is a show which may contain elements of the real world although we will not know for sure (hence NYC references etc). Again, this is merely subliminally pulling the viewers in through familiar imagery. The 'event' is most likely non-existent, I've seen no evidence that supports it in other theories, and the existence of Bigs is a ruse- We are watching a TV show about people watching a TV show. trip-tastic if you ask me. Sad? yes, since the existence of Bigs doesn't exist outside of a studio setting.

All the world is a stage when speaking of Paradigm City, and the adage still holds true of the show: "The more things change, the more they stay the same." So the only direction a third season could proceed in would be starting over at the beginning. But I believe a movie (similar to death/ rebirth) could cast some light on the production side of things- we already know the story of Roger, the negotiator, but we know nothing about the machines that simulate an entire city and its inhabitants, or the specifics of the show production and management. This almost intrigues me more than the robots and the drama since we are given only a small taste to savour.

this is probably not a popular interpretation of the show though, I realize that- it just seems to be the most straightforward to me, as well as being the most heavily supported by the evidence we are given through the show.

I couldn't have said it better Penny, as the show's characters just "got away from her." Their self-determination seems to be what makes it interesting although it can, as we've seen, be unpredictable.

Your description of a dark city, the brooding characters- even the love triangle all fit nicely in my little hypothesis- it sounds like we are thinking along similar lines about the true show.

Beck does seem to be a split character, somewhat of a creep, although the best of humanity rises to the top when it counts. IS this some sort of didactic lesson? Are we all mired in self-obsession until we start to care for other individuals and their feelings? Beck certainly struggles before accepting these terms (although Norman finally puts his mind at ease about the nature of humanity).

such an exquisite social comment if that bears out to be the truth.

I'm gonna make my HUGE post after school I dont' have much *bell rings* BYE!!!! O.O;;;

I think that something too terrible to remember happened a long time ago, how long ago we don’t know. The death of the world at the hands of human controlled MegaDeus resulting in the near or total death of all humanity was so traumatic that the survivors didn’t want those memories, in fact probably couldn’t stay sane if they had them, caused them to choose amnesia.

An elaborate habitat was created to protect and preserve what was left, although very little was left above ground (hence the vast underground works). A director was chosen to make decisions about what would be saved and what would be let go, what would be remembered and what would be forgotten (The moratorium on people going underground would certainly seem to support this). Paradigm city and its environs were built inside that habitat.

I think the director was meant to be remote and uninvolved with the world that was created. But the Director always falls in love with his/her creation (ala Pygmalion and Galatea) and is drawn into the world they create.

Here is what I think we saw:

Roger the wanderer is the original world that was destroyed. The survivors were gathered into Paradigm (which means Example or Pattern) a director was chosen to recast the pattern and give not only the human survivors a place to live but the to be cloned humans and androids as well.

The Director creates the pattern and casts people (survivors) into the roles as he/she sees fit and erases and plants memories as needed. (This explains why buildings from various cities end up in Paradigm. It also explains the ruins, which I believe are left as a warning) Then the plot is left to unfold through the interaction of the inhabitants.

How many times this has happened is not known.

The last/first reset was performed by Gordon Rosewater who was the current Director. He created the world and cast Roger as Negotiator, a failsafe mechanism to protect the world, a being who can pilot a MegaDeus. But all the things that destroyed the first world were still there. The greed and envy of others caused Gordon’s vision to become further corrupted and untenable. Hence his casting of Angel, another human who could pilot a MegaDeus and his potential replacement.

The events of the series take place and Gordon’s world falls apart. He takes Angel below and gives the show’s bible (Metropolis – A guide to building the perfect Paradigm (pattern)) to Angel and relinquishes his role to her. His prayer is to God, the real author of them all.

Big Venus, literally rising from the waves of destruction walks across the habitat recycling everything in sight. Roger negotiates with the Director to spare some memories and allow people to chose, even if only subconsciously whether they want to remember or not. Big Venus and Big O pass each other. Roger and Dorothy pass into the reset universe and Big Venus disappears with the old one. Deus Ex Machina, literally.

Angel, as the new director recasts the world into her vision, which may or may not include MegaDeus.

Who is human and who is not? Doesn’t matter a bit.

Roger could be human or robot, but he thinks of himself as human and he clearly meant to be human as is Angel. Dorothy is an android because she views herself as such and is in turned viewed by others in that fashion. In terms of consensual reality, that is all that matters.

I think they were toys of the characters

THEY CALL THAT A MFing ENDING! WHAT WAS THAT?!?! MAGIC AND VENUS! PARADIGM RESTATED?!?!

I really think they could have done a better job with that. Haveing everything....fake....sucked. Altough I did like how Roger asked Dorothy for mouth to mouth.

about the whole "God in the Machine" idea that's sort of a theme through the entire series.

First, the megadueses and androids:
"Cast in the name of God. Ye not guilty"
This could stand for a number of things, first that the pilot has to have the understanding that this power can protect or destroy. The pilot's feelings have to reflect those of god, and not forsake it. Roger, Schwartzwald, and Alex are granted that power because they want to know the truth; they want to create the world (as they see fit). Allan just wants to destroy, which is in blasphemy of god (so he is guilty).
In the last few episodes, we see the megadueses taking control of their pilots, and in the last episode the megadueses literally plug the pilots into the cockpit. As I said in an earlier post, the sentient machines in this world contain the memories, which is the intangible thing that the people desire. In order to obtain what is desired, on has to become one with the machines, or one with god. Machines represent god, to an extent, because they can grant humans what they desire, and hold the key to the life and death of humanity. Roger, who represents the human condition, decides that he wants to retain his free will, and thus Big O does not become one with Roger. To gain absolute knowledge is to give up one's free will. Maybe Roger is not wearing his watch in the rewrite because he has chosen a path free of god.

Secondly, the virtual world:
The whole story seemingly takes place in a virtual world, which plays itself out, and then resets. This form of humanity only exists in a machine, and the Director, in this case Angel Rosewater, places herself among the actors in the machine. The director, being god as well, places herself in the machine world, and after a trial and sadness, she ascends back to her divine state (almost a parallel to christianity's Jesus). Man, the last episode has way too many metaphores to count.

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Originally posted by Mr. ? I really think they could have done a better job with that. Haveing everything....fake....sucked.

See, I have to resist the idea that everything was fake. It almost certainly started out that way, but as the characters' self-awareness increased, so did their self-determination. Thus you have Alex Rosewater remaking himself as the god of Paradigm, Dastun throwing away his badge and inciting his men to mutiny, Dorothy symbolically (even anviliciously) reviving independent of her hardwired memory, and Roger negotiating with the Creator hi/rself on behalf of the people.

All these involved choices, but they were not those of the director. The actors' volition made the world real. It really is a whole new Paradigm. At least it looks that way to me.

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Originally posted by TheDevilYouKnow I think the director was meant to be remote and uninvolved with the world that was created. But the Director always falls in love with his/her creation (ala Pygmalion and Galatea) and is drawn into the world they create.... How many times this has happened is not known. Deus Ex Machina, literally.

Indeed! I just pulled a few of your tasty ideas (sorry for the hatchet job), these bear repeating at least TWICE more.

despite my contention of a reality based show, citing Shaw's tale is almost spot on- we have character archetypes such as the professor and Doolittle- the complexity of their relationship in a social world certainly rings true as we examine angle, roger, and Dorothy. Beck is also a key to this play.

What seems so thought provoking here is the level of involvement between the director and the people created. We literally see Venus cast the 'world' as a clean slate, but negotiations have succeeded. Angel walks among them either as a physical or holographic maifestation- admiring her work(?) such that she certainly is not hands off. You are also correct in stating that the physical nature of people is simply a spiritual manifestation- It matters little whether Roger was human or Dorothy was an android- the roles they play bear this out. Roger is simply Roger.

Was a god fashioned into a MegaDeus in order to provide an opiate for the people? I would certainly agree with a marxist (literary) interpretation of such events: People were thrown a few books (Metropolis) and something to worship so that could be easily subdued. The decline of religion and the entrance of the Bigs would also support this claim. Notice how very few people in paradigm rise up against such a patently sinister corporation? They seem to be sheep, complacent even walking to their collective death- this is disturbing is it not?

Perhaps what I am most curious about are your thoughts regarding the 'show' and all the stage metaphors. Perhaps there is some wiggle room in my interpretation, but your plot sounds like an intriguing TV show, but I would still contend that it is still a play (albeit an elaborate one). We know that such levels of thought and interpretation exist inside the realm of Shakespeare, and a multi-faceted TV production with these elements wouldn't surprise me in the least.

have you read Slaughterhouse Five? if so, does the story-in-story structure come to mind when thinking of Big O?

Some fantastic observations though- I'm going to lunch and I'm sure I'll be thinking about Pygmalion the whole time.
thanks

Note: I have not yet read all the posts in this topic, but I'll get around to it, so if my theory overlaps with what has already been said then I guess great minds do think alike.

Here we go

When Big Venus appears everything it touches disappears, but when it gets to Big O and Roger, Venus just walks into it and they both disappear, what does that mean? The Bigs are gone, and Paradigm city has returned to normal, but people still DO NOT have memories. When Roger is negotiating with Big Venus he makes a point that he has been making for the whole series, I believe he said it best in Act 14 when he came out of his vision. "People are Not Ruled By Their Memories!" Paradigm city and all its inhabitants have lost their memories once again, but this time they have been implanted with the idea that memories do not determine who you are, it is how you live your life that determines who you are as a person.

With this notion in place, Angel has succeeded where Gordon failed. Gordon believed that the only way to make this city real was to give people memories, because he believed that memories are what determine who a person is. Remember the tomoatoes, Gordon thought that he had to keep cloning the tomoates to make them the actual item, Angel's reset goes on the idea that you don't have to be a tomoato, you can be whatever you want, and that is what will make you real.

As for the stage lights, the previous directors (Gordon, and those before him) had that equipment there to record the people and those would be the new memories for the people in Paradigm, I believe that when the world went all blank (stagelights included) that Paradigm will return without them, because there is no need to record memories because people do not need them, they can live their own lives.

The tomatoes have finally become the real thing, where as once Paradigm was a stage, with people now acting freely and not being ruled by their memoires Paradigm has become the real article.

That's the rough theory anyways, I still have some points to work out and make it flow better, but that's the main idea anyways.

does anyone have a screen shot from the jap. version of episode #26??...im looking for a screen shot of the very end where Roger is driving down the street with that broken building down the road (its broken and leaning to the left, its a big building in the american version)...for some reason i think i remember seeing from R.Smith's spoiler videos that in the jap. version that building was the paradigm hq in the ending of episode 26....not sure if im right but if someone can help me out in checking it i would be extremely grateful. i was just wondering if they changed the ending for american purposes or if i am just crazy

if you could maybe post the two pics in this discussion...that would be great.

THANKS!

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Originally posted by A. Rosewater does anyone have a screen shot from the jap. version of episode #26??...im looking for a screen shot of the very end where Roger is driving down the street with that broken building down the road (its broken and leaning to the left, its a big building in the american version)...for some reason i think i remember seeing from R.Smith's spoiler videos that in the jap. version that building was the paradigm hq in the ending of episode 26....not sure if im right but if someone can help me out in checking it i would be extremely grateful. i was just wondering if they changed the ending for american purposes or if i am just crazy if you could maybe post the two pics in this discussion...that would be great. THANKS!

is this what u are talking about? here's the jap version screen shot, as soon as i get 26 in english, i'll add the english screen shot

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