Episode 26 Discussion: "The Show Must Go On"

quote:

Originally posted by s-girl And yes, that poster in the back is the same one that covers the anime companion book. Kind of funny eh? added: Oh and here's a silly thought -- what time did Big O air in Japan when it was on? 7:20... 7:20... what's the significance of 7:20? :-)

Here's one possible significance...check out the clock . The Big O we are watching is The Big O being broadcasted/written/produced/etc. at the same time, and when Dorothy mentions "Roger the Negotiator" to Angel, one could take it to mean that it was showtime for The Big O to begin at 7:20.

So are we watching the replay of a previous version of The Big O as viewed by Angel Rosewater, followed by an entirely new season which we are given a snippet of at the very end like a preview? But the show has obviously been revised...see other posts in this thread for some differences.

Could one say that the idea behind The Big O was to present multiple versions of a similar background (Paradigm City) with familiar characters (Roger, Dorothy, Beck) and toss in a different scenario each time? Possibliities that might have been previously shown include the Big War (crazy apocalypse revelation), the Wanderer Arc (shades of Ruroken), and of the Truman Show (also include The Matrix).

The show might have ran longer that we thought (more than 2 seasons), and now it comes to this...

...
...
...

WHATEVER. All I really cared about was BIG O! FINAL STAGE!!! Now that was one of the best finishes to a great show. Ever.

*Stares*

wow... angel hu? Alot less compilcated than what the last episode made me beleive it to be...

BIT IT WASS STILL FRIKEN AWSOME!!!!

That intro with big ear was the best.

And beck..> GAH HE IS CRAZY!!!

Hey do ya think beck had a revelation or soemthing? Ya know... like what he was in rogers dream? Roger probley somehow had a vison of the past (or future) in epiosde 14... I mean... he did tell dorothy aboutthe wires and such... OH WAIT!!!! DID DOROTHY 1 HAVE A CONNECTION TO THE MEGADEESE!!! OR IS IT ONE ITSELF!?!?!?!?!

gezz... that was crazzy... friekn great...

EDIT: boom fixed some mistakes...

quote:

-edit- side question, how the heck did beck know about the final stage

i don't think beck knew about final stage... just dorothy connecting to big o... i mean... dorothy 1 and all... meaby actually has a connection with those damned meagdueses...

quote:

Originally posted by Bakan While thinking about the episode, I just thought of something. When we saw the assembly line of Rogers, and the small hand-held Dorethy, what if that was from a toy production assembly line. Probably completly off, but makes you think, why else would they need to mass produce Roger Smith robots, unless maybe they are his stunt doubles.

In epiosde 14... when roger is a hobo and such.... well... remember... there were plays about it all around and even had that comic...

Now... i'm not sure how that epiosde fits in to it all but... i figure they are just toys... ya know... one story line had him as an animated hero or something...

AND ROGER SMITH DOESN"T HAVE BLASTED ROBOT CLONES AS MOST OF YOU SEEM TO THINK!!!!

quote:

First, I don't think there was a rewind. I think Roger stopped Angel from completing the rewind. Paradigm is still the city without the memory of what happened forty years ago because even Angel doesn't understand that yet.

Well i am skeptical on whether roger actually has memories anymore...

i mean... angel and dorothy might but... really... i don't know...

AND WHAT ABOUT EPIOSDE 4 WHEN ROGER IS LOOKING UP AT THAT WOMEN!!! I DON"T REMEMBER SEEING ANYTHING ABOUT IT IN EPIOSDE 14?!?!?!?

well i think taht may be all for now... unless i come across some more unsolve mysterys...

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!??????




That did not make a LICK OF SENSE!

there, I said it, and I sure meant it too...

I really like some of the theories I read on here, but the only thing that seems to have made any sense to me as I watched it, is "Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it."

But then there's the whole Angel in the studio part that kills that

At first I was thinking that everytime they get to a certain point, Big Venus resets the world. (or atleast the memories of the people in Paradigm City)

I really should have watched the Episode both times it came on...

It was a really good episode though, it left me wanting more however.

Personally? I loved it, the cycle links back to the first episode which implys that no matter how many times they lose there memories Roger Smith will always be the negotiator, he will always fill his much needed duty.

1) So big Fou is the aquatic big! Very cool.

2) I loved the ending, and am dying to watch the whole thing over again.

3) My wrap-up therory.

a) The whole show is really about Angel. She's the "true author" of the book, she's the one who's hiding from her memories, she's the one that Roger negotiates with.

b) I originally thought it was a St Elsewhere ending, and that Angel was a real person in a coma or something, but the Angel=Lucifer comparisons convinced me.

c) Somehow, the whole show is an afterlife of some kind -- either the literal christian afterlife or a computer simulation, or something.

d) Angel is the fallen angel - Lucifer, and she created Paradigm City so that she could forget her fall. She wrote the book.

e) Everyone else is either aspects of Angel's personality or actual spirits in the afterlife. (Probably, the people are human spirits and the robots/megadei are heavenly servants - angels).

f) My guess on Gordon is that he is Angel's father - some kind of incarnation of god. His plan is for Roger to "negotiate" Angel out of the loop. Roger and Gordon both enter the city, and Roger gives up his memories, just like Angel.

g) Roger and Big O might be a fallen angel too. If so, then Roger is basically Big O's memory, just like Angel is Big Venus's. They're both walking around because Big O and Big Venus want to forget the war against heaven.

h) None of the fallen angels (megadei) have memories, which is why they eat memories underground, or eat their pilots. The megadeus's souls/memories/spirits (Angel, Roger, probably Svartzwald and Gordon, maybe Dorothy) are walking around in Paradigm City.

i) I think that Roger beat the loop, by telling Angel that he remembered her and that it would be wrong to erase those memories.

"We have come to terms"

This episode was DAMN confusing. But very good. I re-watched it and now I totally need a season three. Instead of answering my questions it raised like ONE THOUSAND more! SEASON THREE!!!! Oh yes and I'm a little pissed at Angel you know deleting everything.Myabe she realized she didn't have total controll and couldn't handle it.Or maybe the world was just too screwed to repair it.Wasn't Lucifer a fallen Angel before he became the devil? Very interesting. Maybe Angel Rosewater is the true enemy.(don't take it personally you guys!)

Wow...well, I enjoyed it...a fitting ending, now that Ive had an evening and sleep to have it fully sink in...

Angel is obviously the new "director" and Gordon obviously hired Roger to negotiate with the director to change the roles of the actors that played out on Paradigm's stage. (All this was stated in the final two episodes...)

The real question that remains with everything is this:

Did Roger succeed in completing the task that was designated to him with his contract with Gordon....meaning, was Roger able to negotiate with the new director (Angel, the catalyst behind Big Venus and the reset or rewind) to change the roles of the actors and thereby keeping or deleting memories?
The only part that confused me was this: Was Roger negotiating to erase the memories or to keep them for the people in Paradigm? (I think he was negotiating to keep them, but he didnt seem to worried on letting Paradigm "reset" and clean itself up from the rubble it had become...probably just minor details) Also, when they showed Angel crying while she was watching the monitors in the "green" directors room, was that inside Big Venus?? Where was that? Also, the significance behind Dorothy and "Roger" (I didnt catch his face, although Ive seen spoilers so I assume its him) showing up to place his hand on her shoulder, what was it? Obviously Dorothy mentioning "Roger the Negotiator" was a nod to resetting the series back to the first episode...titled Roger the Negotiator. Lots of symbolism...we do know that Roger was negotiating with Angel, and all along she seemed to be the key behind everything...somehow, which isnt totally answered, she's involved with Big Venus.

I dont know if Roger succeeded in negotiating with Angel, because after the "reset", he is still indeed, a negotiator...his role has not changed. Even if thats the case, we still dont know if all the memories were erased again, do we? Angel and Dorothy, while standing on the street corner, seemed to be smiling, as if cognizant of who Roger was and what just happened before the "reset" or memory erase. From my interpretation, there are signs that the memories were erased, but also some signs that they werent erased.

My "important" questions have mainly been answered involving the mystery of Paradigm City, it all seems to make sense...so moving on...the only real outstanding questions for me are these:

Did Roger succeed in saving the memories?
Did Roger succeed in enabling the actors on Paradigm's stage to change roles?

Big Ugg!
Big Ugg!
Big Ugg Ugg Ugg Ugg!

Cast in the name of God
this ending blows.

Thank's a lot for nothing-ing!

Big Ugg!
Big Ugg!
Big Ugg Ugg Ugg Ugg!
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Okay, okay. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but really season 2 was somewhat of a let down. I really can't believe that the creators of this series envisoned the Big O to end like this. What was their true vision for the end of the Big O when season 1 first ended?

There are a lot of things that really bother me, mainly the whole was this a show or not gimmick? What is up with the holodeck jazz like in Star Trek:TNG? I almost feel as if everything I've watched in the Big O was just a stupid put-on. Thanks to that ending I can never look at any episode of Big O without realizing it's all b.s. because it was all "scripted".

This ending is as silly as the ending for the old sitcom show Newhart. I mean that show ended with Bob Newhart waking up from a dream, a very long dream that was the entire series called Newhart. Basically, while that ending was very creative for its time, in retrospect it really sucks because you can never watch an episode of Newhart without you thinking in the back of your mind this was all a dream. Big O did the same thing for me. Now I can never watch an episode of Big O without always thinking it was just an elaborate virtual reality show.

And another thing that bothered me is the cyclical ending and nature of this show. It just leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth. Another animated series that had a cyclical ending was MIGHTY MAX. But unlike BIG O, MIGHTY MAX pulled it of seemlessly and actually made it an awesome way to end an awesome show. I mean in Might Max, Max is happy he has a second chance to do things right. He knows he can fix the mistakes he made the first time. That was a cool way to end the show. And even though he was doing things over, it wasn't exactly like the last time. Big O's cyclical ending was just forced and unnatural to me. Didn't like it at all.

OK, here's my first impression:
1. Big Ear is an android. And I'll just bet he had an inside line to the Director to guide Roger the way the script was supposed to go.

2. Dastun resigns! Tearing off his badge was like tearing out his heart.

3. Big Fau is a very tough customer. Those milling arms sure can break up Big O's pretty orange layer.

4. Dorothy wakes up all on her own. So much for good boy Beck.

5. Norman is, as usual, prepared for anything.

6. Big Fau tosses Big O in the drink near the submerged Battery Point (notice that that's the same building the "RC Roger" drives off in Act 18 ), but gets dragged down too. Then there's a "Nantucket sleighride*" scene that reminded me of "Moby Dick." (*whaling term for a boat being towed behind a whale)

7. Gordon and Angel (how long can that girl cry, anyway?) go down another 66 levels. I wondered if they were going to be underneath Big O and pull him into the holodeck where they were.

8. No wait; it's not just a holodeck, it's the control room.

9. Roger sees the gears of the whole place? Or was that hypoxia? Mass-produced Rogers, marching armies of giant robots.

10. Dorothy in a wet suit. Oh yeah.

11. Roger makes a kissing joke to Dorothy!!! (Honestly, some people will complain if you hang them with a new rope ... Roger Smith!)

12. I don't think Dorothy (or the writer) appreciates the danger of rupturing a pressure tank in an enclosed space.

13. Guess the "final" attack is a one-shot.

14. Thanks, sixfortyfive, for letting us know about Big Venus as Lucifer. You rock! And Big Venus wipes out everything, step by step.

15. Roger steps out of his role as Dominus to negotiate. Yay, Negotiator!

16. And the ending is almost the same as the beginning of Act 1, except that now Angel and Dorothy are standing on the sidewalk watching Roger drive by.

Here is what I consider the most significant change:

Dorothy has had this albatross of core memory in her head. It makes her attractive to any pilotless Megadei wandering around (c.f. Dorothy 1, Archtype, Leviathan, Big Duo), but its presence put her in danger from anyone needing a core.

It's gone!

It's gone, and she is alive.

She can be herself now. She need not fear being overwhelmed by a Megadeus. She can choose to hook up to Big O, just as Roger can choose not to. In her ability to choose, she is now human.

Pygmalion

well

THAT was inconclusive

whats a memory?

why was paradigm created?

What is paradigm?

but i dunno, its one of those "half full, half empty" deals,oh well, the sunrise cats have been doing this all season long, why not one more time?

And i really do hope they make a season three, i doubt that THIS was meant to be the ending, just sort of a reavealing of whats going on and next season will explain and resolve(hopefully)

I don't generally do this, but I had posted a few thoughts about Angel and put them on this thread, it's on page 6 towards the top.

The posts were coming in so fast at that point that it got lost in the shuffle. Would anyone be willing to go back and look at it and comment?

Thanks

I didn't notice if this was posted before, so if it was, pardon me, but in Roger's flashback, was Levaithan not an architype? It looked like it had it's armor on.

well Zola i could certaintly agree with you, Angel DOES say she is unreliable(probably referring to when she let gabriel shot Dorothy)
And we do see Angel comment on Roger and Dorothy's relationship in the same epidsode, i guess she saw Dorothy in Bi O cockpit and said-

Angel-Well Roger,it woulda been nice, but i guess the strings to your heart are tied to someone else

or something like that...

I think any theory at this point will work

and uh Zola....

you still gonna have that countdown thing in your sig?

I'm trying to figure out the significance of the backgrounds. Why instead of just showing any buildings do they show NYC in the memories Roger sees underwater? Why is Big Ben in the sand on episode 20?
I think that there was some terrible occurance and Angel locked herself away in her reality, not wanting to face whatever that was. It could be something personally tragic maybe even as simple as Roger chosing Dorothy over her, but it was manifested as the end of the world for her. Gordon could really be Angel's father and sent Roger the negotiator in to bring her out of her reality. Gordon stays apart from the rest until Angel can handle the truth of it all. The end scene is Angel has come to terms with everything and has joined the real world. No more false realities, no more mega deuces, etc.

Someone mentioned at the tomatoes are alll pawns. But how can that be if Roger was one of the tomatoes..all of then actually according to Gordon?
However, this aspect is the only part that dispels my above theory, leading me to think that there was an end to the world and they are the last ppl alive. If the mega dueces are gone in the new reset is because Big O finally defeated the last of them. They were the cause of the initial big destruction and until they were all found and destroyed, the world could never truely forget their memories. It was too big a reminder.

Gordon is like god of this world. He did create it initially, leaving his daughter Angel in charge. But she was missled, falling from grace to be symbolized as the fallen angel and therefore lucifer.She is the catalyst of this all. Maybe her fall really was falling in love in Roger and therefore manipulated the set "script" to try to be with him. Losing herself in it all in this attempt. I don't think the Lucifer idea is that she is the evil being trying to steal our souls as a way to signify that she's going completely against what was origionally designated by "god."

Zola, I read your post...interesting stuff about the motives behind Angel's reset and whether she and Dorothy are aware of what happened when episode 1 appears to begin...

I dont know about the whole love angle thing...I dont know whether thats in Angel's interest given her new responsibility...To be honest, I think in Angel's heart, she really wants whats best for everyone. I think that became evident when she stopped working for Alex and realized he was an egomaniacal devil, only out for his own gain. She quickly disassociated herself with him and then came upon her true calling...that of the new director/God. Whether she's benevolent, only time will tell, though based upon her and Dorothy's reaction when Roger drove past at the end, I think she's going to end up being good...

Aside from that, Im sorry to say, the rest of your post didnt fancy me much...Im still trying to figure out whether Roger was successful or not...or what happened to everyone's memories and the overall outcome of the episode...

I'm of the belief that Roger did successfully negotiate with the director/God/Angel. (You guys should read some of teh Angel thread to see that Angel as Lucifer is something some of us with more background on the book of Revelations are disagreeing with.)

Roger wasn't negotiating to keep memories... he was negotiating to keep things as they were... he made a statement about how he believed it was his and everyone's free will to have not remembered things and to essentially live as they were regardless of what may or may not have preceded the amnesiatic event.

He was telling Angel to do the same -- to live as a human and to not be torn by doubt about who she was.

The fact that we see her at the end with Dorothy (in regular clothes mind you) points to the idea that she listened.

THe "We Have Come to Terms" ALSO implies that Roger was successful.

Remember it only came up in 1st season episodes when there was a conclusion that was in Roger's favor. ("No side" occurred when things went awry.)