Episode 26 Discussion: "The Show Must Go On"

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Originally posted by s-girl Not exactly. The Angel and Dorothy we see at the very end are not exactly like the versions we first encountered in season 1. Dorothy there is already wearing her blood-red/black outfit which she acquired after coming to live with Roger. And Angel and Dorothy are now already acquainted, which too should not happen with a literal reset. The differences between this last scene and the first have been stated now several times in several threads, meaning that we don't have a literal reset. Those minor differences means something has changed this time around.

But Roger is back to a blank slate, yes? Or is the one in the car a robot? Angel and Dorothy were smiling like they knew something. Was that director Angel? (Did anyone else notice how badly Angel and Dorothy were drawn in that drive by scene? YUCK)

Why was Roger in the control room? Was that after the reset? It seemed almost like they were watching what already happened. If not, where are all these Rogers coming from? How many robots are there? Our Roger was a robot the whole time?

See, when they added this huge, over-arcing convoluted mess in the last 5 minutes, which no one can explain, they hurt the series.

I'm betting no one will ever figure out the exact truth on everything. It would take an interview from the creator to explain that. As far as I know, creators aren't big on explaining the series to the fans- usually there isn't a need to!

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Originally posted by w_ready99 s-girl: I definitely appreciate the reply (and especially 2 of them ) and your response definitely makes sense. But is this just what you thought or what you believe after looking at it with a good quality recording? I hate to doubt, but I barely noticed it the first time through and only really picked up on it the second time through.

Sure --

I have a video file too which allows me to zoom in... it appears that there are several rows of lights (about four tall) and 10-13 points across.

If this were the teeth of Big Venus, my video (both on tape and on the computer) suggest that it should be only 1 or two light-rows high and not quite as wide.

Also, the shape of the light structure doesn't seem consistent with the Big Venus as the light source, nor is the idea that this is Big Venus seem consistent with the conversation occurring between Gordon and Angel.

Also note that once we leave Angel/Gordon that Roger's next insight into Angel shows her watching Vera and young-Angel as "Angel-Director."

Hope this attachment helps. Another one follows further done of the control room.

• Attachment: untitled.jpg

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Originally posted by Ragnar In short, the producers were saying that it is all an act anyway, so don't concern yourself so much in something that isn't even real, and being so worried about memories when you have your own. But I could be completely wrong.

No, I think I agree with you here. It's not important to understand everything... as Roger stated, it doesn't really matter what happened 40 years ago... he's not predetermined by memories nor the explanations for them. He lives regardless.

I think that was the point of the end as you stated.
:-)

The other thing I want to point out to those of you who feel frustrated is that the anime genre more-so than the Western animation genre intentionally wants to be a bit mysterious and leave some elements up to the reader to interpret.

So the concept that there had to be a clear-cut ending is not necessarily congruent with what Sunrise and the creators wanted. It's what keeps the fandom alive :-) . Goodness, you should see some of the arguments we still have over shows that are much older than this.
;-)

To me the lights look like Big Venus lying on its back, like Big O lies flat on the Prairie Dog. The silhouette of Big Venus standing over Paradigm appears after the ball of light (Angel in one form or another) shoots up from underground. So, I've always assumed that was Venus rising from beneath the surface.

I'm still of the belief that the control room is inside the stuido overlooking the set of Angel's childhood home. One of the problems I have with the idea that Roger and Dorothy have been transported to the "control room/cockpit" of Big Venus: Roger and Dorothy appeared in the control room *before* the Bigs merged. In fact, there's a shot of Roger still standing on Big O waiting to merge with Venus after Roger and Dorothy show up in the control room. Plus, if Angel the Director is in Big Venus, that would suggest the Director and the Memory are the exact same person.

Here is the control room image as well to help compare to the lightsource... Big Venus would require another attachment and an image should be available already somewhere so I will skip it for now.

• Attachment: control.jpg

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Originally posted by "Yeah, but..." To me the lights look like Big Venus lying on its back, like Big O lies flat on the Prairie Dog.

Darn it, now you know I'm just going to have to post the Big Venus pic now right becuase of your comments :p

SO here it is everyone... you guys draw your own conclusions now or write the creators demanding an explanation. (Hmm. Maybe we should write to Sunrise...)

• Attachment: venus.jpg

Thank you so much for the screenshots. Yours looks just as hard to make out as my recording, so if it was supposed to be something readable that would be expecting pretty darn good eyesight as I still can't tell what it is exactly. The lights for the control do make the most sense to me though, and I hate to disagree but to me it doesn't look like the teeth for Big Venus.

Great pic, you've gotta love the fact that the animators used the photo negative coloring for Big Venus the "negator". I also thought it was interesting that Big Venus and Big O seemed to cancel each other out.





A couple of subtle hints, or continuity errors ( I doubt it) throughout ep 26. The newspaper with the next day's headline, The shot of Roger underwater without gloves, tie, and wrong colored pants on, and Roger, Dorothy, and Angel in different states os apparel than they were throughout the majority of the episode.











No good pics of Angel wearing the black dress. Notice the nifty Big O poster in the back ground. Might just be a joke, but it could also be a point to be made for all the "Truman Show" Folk out there.

The only other explination I could make involves the end sequence with the revertion to Ep 1. I think it may be possible that contents of Big O were all a part of television show based on an "alternate reality" Paradigm City, and that at the end of the show, the real Roger is sent in to negotiate with Angel, director of the television show, after her character's (AIs) became self aware. The only thing I could conclusively point to that leads credence to that would be the way Dorothy announces their presence in the control room.
"Roger, The negotiator."
It's almost as if she is introducing Roger to Angel for the first time. I know what you're saying, that doesn't make sense she obviously knows him from the TV show. But what if Angel what if the outside world around Angel was different from the one in the tv show? What if Roger was simply a free lance negotiatior and didn't have any connection to the Big O? Would Angel really know this Roger? Or maybe I'm way off base and the control room just represents the bridge between the current simulation and the next. I have a headache.

...is Dorothy's head different? Like, the memory/headband thinger...is it even on the Dorothy in the control room? I couldn't tell from the picture...

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Originally posted by AirAttack It's almost as if she is introducing Roger to Angel for the first time. I know what you're saying, that doesn't make sense she obviously knows him from the TV show.

In a way, Roger is meeting Angel for the first time. Roger has successfully made contact with Angel *outside of the show* in order to negotiate with her, thus fulfilling his contract with Gordon. All of his previous interactions with Angel have been within the show, and he didn't have direct contact with Angel outside of the show. Dorothy's introduction seems to be more of "Roger, the Negotiator [is here to see you now]."

And welcome, AirAttack!

A friend of mine pointed out that the book was not finished. It seems the TV Show of Big O was not finished, and when they got to the end, things blanked out. Like the blank pages of the book.

he also pointed this out from Act 25:
How can Angel have a favorite line from a favorite book, if no books survived other than Rosewater's?

And it was the Wizard of Oz. This is telling. Look at the Oz allusions in the show. We have a Dorothy (but she is more the Tin Man). Paragigm is like the Emerald City (they even have green domes) and the "King" of the city turns out to be a fake. Datsun as the Lion and Norman as the Scarecrow? Like in Oz, they have their courage and brains the whole time.

I think we have to look at the idea that Angel was trying to write a story that she somehow got caught up in. She used characters based on "real life" people. The characters are all over the top, making it a lot like a story.

This is not to say there is no Paradigm city, or even an event 40 years ago. It is just that the real city does not have the Big's or all these robots.

Finally, I think the robot Rogers are toys getting molded. There was the toy Dorothy after all.

I like the idea that Dorothy is introducing Roger, the Negoiatior. Maybe she is actaully a secratary for Angel Rosewater.

Hey guys, does anyone remember the Big O articles in the newspaper in episode 14? What was that all about?

Also, all of you who are pissed about the restarting at the end, does that at least explain to you why Schwarzwald went nuts? He knew this would happen and it pissed him off.

About the different colored Roger, He was in a different Big O, you can tell because of the messed up face plate. This makes me think it was another (robot?) Roger...

Did anyone notice in the long flashback thing the dragon that didn;t look quite like Leviathan? Or is that what it was and I wasn't paying attention... Confused... A fitting end to the show.

I'm gonna post something I said on the Anime Jump boards. I dunno, maybe I'm missing the bigger picture....

So...was Angel the director all along? Perhaps Angel the Director wanted to put herself in her own show, but realized that it wasn't really working out for herself or the plot. Don't know about poor Gordon though....perhaps he was just the writer? That makes sense.

Wait a second....omf....I think I have found the real meaning of what's going on....Tori Spelling = Angel, Aaron Spelling = Gordon. Oh f***.....90210- Paradigm City. Angel was trying to play off of the success of her father, but obviously had some major problems with production, so Roger was hired by Gordon to get Angel to loop the show from its start, and thusly, write a new ending. Perhaps Alex won't become as power-mad as he did, and perhaps Seebach will actually live to see the end....and maybe we'll have a Duo/O/Fau fight!


Too bad that nothing was really explained. Well, for those wanted Roger to actually have some more negotiation episodes, I suppose that will happen if/when season 3 comes out.


Could it be that Roger, Dorothy, and Angel were just watching the playback of what happened? Perhaps Roger was the one who made the show end like it did, by negotiating an ending with the Director. Angel was obviously upset with how it had ended in such a way.


Well, as per the memories that Roger had when he and O were sinking- could it be that those memories were of what had happened in other incantations of the show? The endings that had already past were not acceptable to certain people, and perhaps this last one was one that finally make them happy. Perhaps this show was still being developed, and Roger, Dorothy, and Angel were just going over the whole show before it finally aired to audiences. The marketing tools were already in place (toys, ads, Angel's "memories" scene), maybe Angel the Director was just sad b/c of how the show was finally ending.


Oh yeah, this goes with the "Restarted Paradigm, where Roger doesn't have a watch" theory- maybe the Bigs have been taken out of this particular version b/c THEY are the variables that always wind up destroying the city/series. Or perhaps that what Roger was doing- telling Angel that even that ending didn't work, and that the Bigs were the things that had been the cause of all the problems. Perhaps now there won't be ANY Megadeii.

quote:

Originally posted by "Yeah, but..." quote: Originally posted by AirAttack It's almost as if she is introducing Roger to Angel for the first time. I know what you're saying, that doesn't make sense she obviously knows him from the TV show. In a way, Roger is meeting Angel for the first time.

I can see that, but am not sure. It could just be that this Dorothy likes to be formal. (Would Roger really reach out and assure Angel like that if they weren't acquainted? It's somewhat of a familiar gesture. bah. who knows?)

Funny, the other thing about these last few seconds is one gets the impression that Dorothy works with or for Angel in this "outside reality."

BTW - the screenshots we've put up are not as high quality as the original . I had to doctor a capture system to get these up, which resulted in dropping the color levels (because my video card sucks).

So the "distinct points across" on the lights is a lot clearer on the actual video.

But I won't complain. It sure beats the old days when we couldn't try to show pictures to help argue some of our theories

Jethro Tull once released an album named Nightcap, on which one disc contained the results of an abortive recording session in France. Several of the songs on this disc were an interpretation of the 'world/stage' and 'God/director' metaphors -- there was a reference to 'the ceiling crashing in', humans were left alone to figure out the script and lines themselves, and one interpretation had God scrapping the entire thing in the end and starting in the beginning (www.cupofwonder.com).

Although this metaphor is a common one, and is implemented in The Big O, I wanted to point out that The Big O is similar to this set of songs in several ways -- for instance, the bit of the ceiling crashing in, and God restarting everything. It's an interesting comparison.

I came up with another theory, but it's not that strong.
What if Angel contained the memories by taking away the Megadueses and Dorothy from Roger/Paradigm?

For all those that said some questions were answered, can you say which ones? Seems like they just ended without explaining anything.

My theory:
pre-40 years: Never happened. It's a backstory that Angel(Director) never intended to flesh out. Kinda like how the Clone Wars in Star Wars should have been before Lucas made those horrible prequels. Angel(Memory) said she didn't care about them, and Gordon says something about then they never happened.

memories in the characters: They have it because Angel(Director) wrote them to. Kind of like how R.D. woke with the urge to kill like all of us on a Monday morning. They weren't suppose to question them, but then guys like Gordon started messing around and "POOF", you got a mess.

the "rewind": Was there really a rewind? The only "proof" was that we had season 1 footage and Roger's monologue. But Roger use to always do a monologues, and they always rehashed footage. Maybe Angel fixed everything and it was just-another-day. Roger's going to work and talking about himself as usual. Dorothy is in the maid outfit, which means she's probably under Roger's employment.
Roger's negotiation successful.

This would make a Season 3 unnecessary. Why? Because the unexplained questions aren't suppose to have answers. The only thing important was what was currently happening. Roger discarded the past and fought for a future.

Gee, was this a one keg or two keg idea?

ya know...weve gotta explore the nature and the importance of the megaduses. we've all been mainly speculating on the characters and the city. The megaduses seem to have a big role to play in everything, especially the bigs.

remember, roger found Big O because of things he had suddenly remembered. Beck could work on the megaduses because of memories he had...becks memories seemed to be centered around dorothy, perhaps beck was a sort of technition. or perhaps beck is the true creater of dorothy.

the Bigs and androids have some sort of memory....but no real way to access them...or at least they never show it.

according to gordon the event that happened 40 years ago didnt really happen.....could this mean that there was indeed an event...but not the one that is widely accepted.

it would seem to me that genetic engineering had gotten out of hand at one point. the leviathan that roger is seen fighting in a memory is one sort of proof.

as for the stage lights, perhaps it was some form of artificial sun for a much larger dome, the world outside as seen in STRIPES is a desert...which could mean the ozone layer is no more and the sun scorches everything.

well...these are just new avenues to look down.

OMGWTF if your theory is the correct one act 26 wouldn't suck so much.