Episode 26 Discussion: "The Show Must Go On"

s-girl 11-03-2003 04:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Name Of GodBut Angel IS NOT the true author! When Gordon asks the true author to finish the book he is not refering to Angel.


We see the book after it's held aloft by Gordon getting completed. We see the book later on the control panel with Angel ROsewater's name as author. We definitely could conclude that Angel Rosewater is the author. End of season 2... transformed book, and the restart that
occurs shortly after.

Regarding some of the theories regarding Angel and all this happening as a result of the Dorothy/Roger angle... if Angel is truly as misguided or evil as some of you have been suggesting, she should have rewiped everything and not had Dorothy.

I doubt that any of the things that occurred in ep 26 were a direct result of a "rejection "on Roger's part. :-) (Although I know a lot of R/D shippers want to believe that, I don't think this is really supportable based on the conclusion of events.)

And regarding whether anything was resolved in the triangle... I don't really think so. Roger's last words were to Angel... and I think actually came across better in the Japanese version since they were much more strongly emoted. (Not to hold anything against Steve Blum or the dub, who is always excellent, but I think the words were a lot more poetic in the Japanese version. )

Random note regarding that question about what Angel flew towards when she sprouted wings... I assumed it was the TV control room.
s-girl 11-03-2003 04:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jeckel
perhaps roger doesnt have his Big O watch in the cyclic end because he has actually lost the memories of Big O. or it could of just been an overlooked detail that the animator forgot to put in...


The last part is recycled animation from episode 1 with the exception of some editing. Edited in was new footage of a shot of Angel and Dorothy ... Angel smiling and Dorothy in her dark outfit (not the green).

If we were strictly recycling episode 1 we would have expected that the original shot of Roger's sunglasses would have been exactly the same, with hat watch reflected. That it did not should is very curious. It was _removed_.
RyuHayabusaDOA2 11-03-2003 04:17 PM
well, I liked the ending and it was in the same vein of Eva's episodes 25 and 26 of the TV series. It was very challenging and it made you think, and that's the artist vision and it's ok by me. It was open ended, leaving the possibility of a 3rd season, but I guess the ending does seem satisfying. All of you guys have valid theories, but I guess mine would be:
Roger completes Negotiations and the world is returned to normal...even if the event did happen 40 years ago..
StevieV019 11-03-2003 04:19 PM
I have to agree, s-girl...I dont think any of Angel's motives regarding her feelings for Roger ever came into play when "resetting" or recreating Paradigm city...deep down, she cares about the world that EVERYONE lives in, she may come off as stuck up, but underneath all of her layers is a person who wants the best of the world to be present. How petty would that be, for her to create a world in spite of Roger's lack of action or feelings towards her. (And of course, the love triangle was never resolved fully, much like my opinion has stated...)

If that were the case, that Angel would create a world as a result of her pettiness, Dorothy would no longer be present in it...so...yeah, s-girl, I TOTALLY agree that it had nothing to do with her bitterness over the apparent observation of Roger and Dorothy and their interactions...
s-girl 11-03-2003 04:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by RyuHayabusaDOA2
well, I liked the ending ... Roger completes Negotiations and the world is returned to normal...even if the event did happen 40 years ago..

AGreed. I like this ending even if we don't have season 3 at all. Thematically, I am satisfied that Roger negotiated with ANgel successfully and that Roger, Dorothy and Angel decided to live life regardless of whateverthehelljusthappenedattheendofepisode26 and regardless of what may or may not have happened 40 years ago. (The creator has the power to nuke the concept of the pre-event according to Gordon.)

We may not understand all of the show, but regardless, we make a choice to live. In ROger's case - he lives according to the concept that no matter what the actual truth may be, he will live not as a prisoner of memories or preprogramming or the concept of being a tomato but as Roger Smith, Negotiator.

What I really find neat about this is that Angel herself ends the season as "?" again. God? Director? Fallen Angel? Beast? HAHA! THe sheer genius of this is making me laugh.

Which reminds me... the whole kefaffle over showing the old opening this season really irritates me because weren't we supposed to get a Big O opening with "Respect" instead of "Big O?"

Anyways - I"m enjoying all this discussion guys.. .forgive me if some of my posts are coming across as a bit abrupt. IT' smore that I'm trying to type frantically between classes more than anything :-)
Wazpy 11-03-2003 04:30 PM
So...was Roger a falure as a negotiator? He didn't get Angel to stop...

I hope there is a season 3. I want to see how it reshapes.
By the way, does anyone know what those big lights that Big Duo ran into in Episode 25 were?
R Trusedale 11-03-2003 04:32 PM
Hmm, Anthropic priciple?

Its clear that Paradigm is a manufactured reality, no matter how you slice it. The hint is that there is at least one higher level of reality, where Angel, Roger, and Dorothy really exist and interact.

Have you ever tried writing a self-consistent world? Science fiction writers do this all the time, with varying degrees of success. Writing a self consistent world, where charcters can interact and grow, that is stable over a long period of time is *hard*. (Instability in this case is defined as a writing a world that allows actions/events, which if they occur, will unmake the world or the reality.)

I see Angel as an asipiring writer, putting down her story in a sort of superbook, which either creates/selects a simulation of a "reality" or an actual universe. (Actually creation of a universe would be seriously at odds with everything we know about physics, however selection would not be)

Angel is trying to create a self consistent world, Paradigm, with an overwhelming power in it, the megadeuces. The power of god wielded by the hand of man. Unfortunately this seems to be unstable. Men and their passions, given overwhelming power, must sooner or later destroy their world.

Which brings me to the Anthropic principle. (Bet you were wondering when I'd get there). The Anthropic principle basically says that we exist in this universe because conditions are right for us. Angel is having trouble with the Anthropic principle for her Paradigm. And the basic problem is the very existence of megadeuces. They are a cool concept, but they totally destabilize her created world.

As Paradigm collapses into nothingness, we see higher-reality Angel looking at her screen and crying. Another failure. Perhaps she is crying for her characters, like Paradigm-Roger, whom she has grown attached to. More likely she is crying out of frustration, because her world concept is just not working. She looks like she is about to give up, when Roger walks in and convinces her to try one more time. (Just like his character in the story.)

The Anthropic principle also applies in our own universe and world. Do we ourselves have an overwhelming power, similar to the megadeuces? Yes of course we do. That power is nuclear weapons. (Perhaps we should all agree to lose the memory of this power Pleased ) Imagine a world in which anyone could have access to a nuke. We'd be lucky to survive even one day, because there are just enough madmen out there....

Nuclear weapons are but the first of a whole herd of destabilizing technologies, that mix badly with the animal passions of man. Other examples, are genetic engineering run amok, artificial intelligence run amok. Seems to me we've seen these themes in Big O as well. Paradigm basically collapses due to the existence of just two megadeuces, Big Fau, and Big O, battling for supremacy. Perhaps in her next rewrite, Angel will leave out the idea of megadeuces. (As Rogers missing Big O watch in the last scenes hints.)

Just as in the Myst stories, the power to create a new reality by describing it in a book is godlike. If such power became widely avaliable at some time in Paradigm, existence itself would fragment. This would go a long way toward explaining the Event (if it occurred) and its aftermath. The few survivors (senators) could simply mutually agree to "forget" this power (i.e. not mention it to their kids) as too dangerous.

However, perhaps they were tempted to add in a failsafe. If something happened to threaten the existence of Paradigm, they could arrange for someone to recover the memory of Reality re-writing. Something like this seems to have happened to the Paradigm Angel.
THE FLYING ANTHONY! 11-03-2003 04:32 PM
As many of us have agreed, the ending leaves MANY possibilities open. People will take different things differently. So, the Angel/rejection idea is possible. She did seem to care for Roger and was almost surprised when she believed (whether it was true or not) that he was hesitant because of Dorothy. Since then, she's been in a sort of self-defeatist, feel-sad-for-myself mode. So, it is possible she was the director, fell in love with Roger (one of her actors), and did what she could to part him from Dorothy (possibly the one he was meant to be with or had been with before she fell in love with ihm the last time).

Perhaps Roger WAS originally a wanderer, and fell in love with Dorothy, and Angel wanted him for herself...knowing his, how shall we say...eccentricies, she re-created the world to where Roger was an adventurous man with a giant robot, and killed off Dorothy to avoid problems, but her memory lived on and thus the android was created...that, or she decided to make her an android, possibly to disgust Roger or maybe see if he was truly meant to be with her, and since she perceived that she had "lost" she was going to re-set.

Personally, I think some of that works, but I'm not a big believer all of it. And, just so you know, I'm against the idea of Roger and Dorothy. She looks SO much younger than he does, it's creepy!
s-girl 11-03-2003 04:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Wazpy
So...was Roger a falure as a negotiator? He didn't get Angel to stop...

I hope there is a season 3. I want to see how it reshapes.
By the way, does anyone know what those big lights that Big Duo ran into in Episode 25 were?


The big lights were the stage lights. However, those stage lights disappeared in episode 26. paradigm city contained on a stage contained on a hologrid? Strange thing , that disappearing of things.

I don't know that you'll get a satisfactory answer on this one. Many of us already differ on our interpretation of what the significance of the lastfew minutes are.

However... one thing I also realized was that the rewriting was occuring before the final negotiation. Remember the lights disappeared as well as the floor before Roger/BigO resurface from the ocean.

But after all is said and done we have Paradigm back in some shape or form.

From that perspective, Roger was successful if that was his intent. However, even what he wanted seems to be up to debate as well ^_^.

You're going to probably have to form your own conclusions on this.

But as I said earlier, we end with "We have come to terms."

I think Roger got something he wanted Smile
Cecil XIX 11-03-2003 04:46 PM
Last night, I wept because of this show.

I wept for Dastun's men, who gave their lives doing what they believed was right.

I wept for Dastun, who stood up for his friend in defiance of authority.

I wept for those killed by R.D., real humans who were silenced because they might have revealed the truth.

And I wept for Schwarzwald. His relentless persuit pursuit of the truth in face of an Orwellian reality is awesome, and true testament to mankind's refusal to accept what god himself gives them.

I wept for all of them, because they deserved better. Those who were didn't deserve to be androids, and they didn't deserve to be pawns for some fake reality.

I'm not as big a fan of Big O as I used to be.
Blue Crow 11-03-2003 04:51 PM
Finally.............the end.

I must say that I am very disappointed.Not that this wasn't a great show,but the ending was far too confusing and well.......sort of stupid to tell you the truth.

I just think that Bandai should have concluded the series with an hour and a half movie that included everything episode 14 except the whole flashback thing.Then,go fresh from there.

It's just that season 2 didn't retain the carefree "futuristic-yet-primitive" feel of the first season.

It was almost like they tried to pull off one of those wierd symbol-filled stories where everything is a metaphor for something else.Much like "Pink Floyd's:The Wall".

Not that that sort of thing isn't good every once in a while,but that's just not what Big O used to be. Frown
Jeckel 11-03-2003 04:52 PM
I still say that Paradigm city has been reset a whole lot of times before just this one. just look at all the Big O's and on top of that the flashback scenes with all the Bigs destroying everything. sorta hinges on some quantum physics theories....where there are numerous realities created for each single choice or course of action. Roger apparently seems to have many different memories of himself in Big O, fighting the leviathan, drowning, and others i cant remember right now.

oh and the book didnt seem to get rewritten...it was more like completed...since gordon asked for all the blank pages be filled with memories.

as for megaduces being taken out of existance....i dont think so, more likely they have been finally forgotten after all, the voluntary memory wipe seems to me...to be a sort of "lets try again" type thing, and on this particular version of the world alot more memories were being accumulated...

since alot of the Bigs were horribly destroyed not many people would remember them..therefore there is a less likely chance for one to pop up, and Roger being the person he is...doesnt seem like the type to just bring his up (the less damaged one) if it wasnt needed....and i say need as in someone else has brought one and it recalled some memories.
THE FLYING ANTHONY! 11-03-2003 05:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Blue Crow
Finally.............the end.

I must say that I am very disappointed.Not that this wasn't a great show,but the ending was far too confusing and well.......sort of stupid to tell you the truth.

I just think that Bandai should have concluded the series with an hour and a half movie that included everything episode 14 except the whole flashback thing.Then,go fresh from there.

It's just that season 2 didn't retain the carefree "futuristic-yet-primitive" feel of the first season.

It was almost like they tried to pull off one of those wierd symbol-filled stories where everything is a metaphor for something else.Much like "Pink Floyd's:The Wall".

Not that that sort of thing isn't good every once in a while,but that's just not what Big O used to be. Frown


I hear ya. I've been thinking that same thing the whole season...it just doesn't feel the same. I still loved it, and am as big of a fan now as I was before, but for different reasons. Still, can't help wondering what it would have been like if they had continued on right away, instead of getting it to us the way they did...someone should ask the creator about the difference in feel, and what had originally been planned...

I guess we just have to take it with a grain of salt. Baby
Wazpy 11-03-2003 05:33 PM
Gah...they really do need a 3rd season. It's still so confusing. And so much was left open...there's still so much I dont understand. What were those memories in Episode 14? Where did the Hydra come from? What happens now that everthing is reset? What's with the stage lights? How did Schwarzwald find out the truth? ect.
...Also I'd just like to see Roger kick some more robotic ass...
Mike 11-03-2003 05:45 PM
Another thing I want to know is this.
Those big tanks look like they're towed behind the standard "half a tractor trailer" trucks the Military Police use. If the MP had those big Howitzers all along, why didn't they use them before? They certainly had plenty of reason.
Jr. 11-03-2003 06:06 PM
What an awful way to end the series.


Angel, or whoever, resets everything. So nothing that happened before was significant. Not that it matters, because all the people we cared about were just part of a fake existance. Everything gets thrown back into some kind of restart mode. No one remembers anything.
So angel was producing a hyper-real TV show? This is complete bullsh*t.


That's it? That's the big end? The old Roger is dead, or maybe he never existed, there is no proof the new Roger knows Norman, or Dorothy, or Dastun, or anyone else. There is no watch, and most of all, there is no Big O.

What the hell kind of nonsense ending is this?

If there is any crying to be done, it's that we waited this long for this tripe. I'm still in shock. The previous episodes led up to this crap! I can't believe it.

Just say NO to season 3.
Blue Crow 11-03-2003 06:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by THE FLYING ANTHONY!
Still, can't help wondering what it would have been like if they had continued on right away, instead of getting it to us the way they did...


I think if that would have happened,we could have had something that was like poetry.Pleased

Instead,they left it open,and made many people thinking that Big O was just another run-of-the-mill robot anime,which many people think it is.

I once had a guy on another forum of mine that said that Big O was "a senseless show about robots beating on each other."Then,once he found out I was a fan,he said "Oh,so you watch anime for action only,and don't like things with plot?"

I didn't bother trying to explain it to him,because if he was unable to derive all that thick juicy thought-provoking plot from the first season,he wasn't about to understand the complex groupings of words and phrases I was about to throw at him.Roll Eyes

But surprisingly,at the same forum,someone else started a thread discussing the complexity of Big O.I was like "oh yeah!"

It's nice to see that there were a couple of people on that forum that thought the same way I did.Unfortunately,everyone else on the forum still thinks it's simplistic and stupid.Frown
keroppilee 11-03-2003 06:15 PM
I can live with the fact that roger managed to convince angel not to fully reset everything. But what i dont and apparently wont ever get is, just WHAT THE HECK IS PARADIGM CITY. If I knew that I think i could be satisfied.
Big Fau 11-03-2003 06:16 PM
#1 A bird whose wings have been plucked:

(Sixfortyfive originaly said #1 and #3)
Rememeber the scene of BIg Venus appearing over the city? It had wings! When Venus's shadow appeared in the end of Act 26, It had NO WINGS!!!! A bird whose wings have been plucked

#2 Will shed all its feathers:
When Angel grew her "wings" and flyed off to the stage on the other side. (at least i think thats what it is Sweatdrop )

#3 And turn into the beast it once was before it evolved into a bird
Roger refers to Big Venus as Angel, as in Angel Rosewater! BIG VENUS=ANGEL. Big Venus is the beast! Angel is the bird! Angel is Big Venus.

Gordon passed the metropolis book down to Angel, changing the author's name on the book to Angel Rosewater.

Big Venus is responsible for the event. It rewinds things back to the beginning of the "loop", thus the loop theroy (made by someone else).

(thank you ramdrumr Smile )
Because the citizens of Paradigm are rewound by Big Venus and sent back to the beginning of the loop, they are forced to relive the same moments over and over again. So, THEY HAVE NO MEMORIES!
Jr. 11-03-2003 06:22 PM
I don't think anyone can prove that everything did not get reset. Does Roger have any memories of seasons 1 and 2? I don't think so, because they showed season 1 act 1 at the end.

Doesn't anyone else think that was a bad ending?