Episode 26 Discussion: "The Show Must Go On"

Thanks for the kind words.

Clearly, this show was written to provide as many possible explanations as there are viewers. Each of us is going to filter what we saw based on what we remember, in other words, what memories we have. Not just of the show, but of everything we have experienced.

For example, when referring to Pygmalion and Galatea I was primarily thinking of the Greek myth and Shaw’s play only tangentially. Our experiences colored what we saw.

Certainly, the concept of two intertwining realities ala Slaughterhouse 5 is possible, but in that story, although the two realities crossed each other and skidded around they were still separate and you could tell which was which.

If that was the case with Big-O then they failed to differentiate the two realities. It all seemed to happening in linear time. Slaughterhouse 5 seemed to occur in random access time, with effect preceding cause in some cases. (Although it has been many years since I read the book). Big-O seemed to be very cause and effect.

Regarding the show and stage metaphors, it is clearly possible that this is all a reality show. If it is, I suppose my theory could have been the pitch meeting for that show. I guess it depends how many levels of reality we were actually seeing here.

You have to be careful that you don’t end up in an infinite regression. Are watching a show about a show about…what? Could somebody be watching us? How far back are we viewing?

That calls into question that nature of reality and opens a whole other can of worms. Rationalist or Empiricist? Is reality composed of what we experience or what we think we experience? Should we confine our facts to what we personally experience or are we willing to accept as facts things that we only have evidence for. This in turns calls for an examination of truth as literal or subjective. And thus, you now have a headache.

I guess I would suggest that the stage and show metaphors are more akin to Shakespeare's interpretations. All life is a stage and we but players….

So The Show Must Go On = Life Must Go On. A valuable lesson for any negotiator.
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Originally posted by margarita678 I think it can all be tied to the fact Angel hates Dorothy because Roger chose her. Angel wrote Dorothy into an android role to discourage Roger but it didn't work because Roger said in ACT 22, I think, that if Dorothy had been human, he would have loved her. And Angel was so close with the hand holding!

I think that's a very good theory. I felt that, too, especially when Roger was doing his final negotiation and pleading with Venus/Angel. He seemed to be aware that she has...uh...issues, and that she couldn't (if that was really her in Venus or *as* Venus) have liked seeing Dorothy behind him in such a place of importance to both Roger and Big O

First, the "robot Rogers" was simply a metaphor, one final way to bring it home that our Roger was not the first Roger to exist, that many had been made before him.

Second, I, too, think Roger was successful. He realized (and this was something the original season questioned) that people will go on living with or without their memories...they don't need the memories of 40 years ago to survive. It didn't matter that they don't remember what happened then, but it DID matter that people choose who they are, and that Angel didn't decide to give everyone a predetermined (by her) background they abide by.

Hmm, perhaps, as Negotiator, it was Roger's job in every cycle to make sure that the "Director" let people choose their own fate (as Gordon said). It seems this had happened, and now Roger had truly succeeded, since Angel let everyone go on living the identity they made themselves (in essence, not having a past prior to 40 years ago meant everyone was free to truly choose their personality, rather than be defined by the past...which is what Roger has always been fighting for...to "live as who you are" rather than being controlled by what someone else tells you to do).

Oh man, someone else who read Slaughter House 5! I was thinking about it too! Having interpretted it definitely helps with this...

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Originally posted by remo williams Beck does seem to be a split character, somewhat of a creep, although the best of humanity rises to the top when it counts. IS this some sort of didactic lesson? Are we all mired in self-obsession until we start to care for other individuals and their feelings? Beck certainly struggles before accepting these terms (although Norman finally puts his mind at ease about the nature of humanity).

Thanks for the kinds words. Yeah, Beck tends to exhibit some of the lower qualities of human nature -- blind self-interest, avarice, violence, amorality, etc. -- and tends to devolve toward those behaviors in the absence of more positive stimuli. He has to choose to answer to his better angels, but the fact is that he does have those nobler instincts and sometimes even acts upon them. If the series does get re-upped, I can foresee his part becoming even more important.

I have a quick question, when Gordon and Angel arrive at B666 in the elevator and then Angel sprouts wings, in the background that she flies into, what is that? It almost looks like a Japanese word or phrase to me, if so that could definitely have lots of meaning. It could just be a grid like pattern that isn't right either though, I couldn't tell very well on my low quality recording. Anyone with the original japanese version or can tell what it is in the American version it would be greatly appreciated.

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Originally posted by TheDevilYouKnow You have to be careful that you don’t end up in an infinite regression. Are watching a show about a show about…what? Could somebody be watching us? How far back are we viewing?

I am not sure exactly what I think right now (I actually get a very distinct Matrix meets Truman Show as many others have mentioned) but in the scene where they show Angel on the TV and then pan out to show another, if you look it goes at least 3 to 4 levels deep (i.e. 3 to 4 complete mirrors, each getting smaller) which definitely does seem to support the idea of watching a show about a show (about a show, about a show ... ?).

Well this is what i think.

I think that the world they are in has been reset many times.

if you'll notice...roger says that he found Big O and the Tunnels because of memories he had happened upon. Many others have these types of memories that lead them to Bigs or something related to them.

Beck for instance says that "I had memories that told me to do it" when they ask him how he thought up of using dorothy as a core memory for the megaduses.

in the final episode we see roger in his drowning scene in a flash back in slightly different clothes but it would seem he has died that time.

there are also other flash backs where roger is in some other sort of danger and at these times of these flash backs something happens in the present time and he seems to have overcome what has been a problem before hand.

maybe the memories everyone seems to have are memories from previous installments of the world they live in...sort of like an after image of sorts.

Dan Datsun was an actor it looks like...maybe at the time of the reset he was wearing the costume from that movie he was in...and just naturally assumed after the reset...that he most of had soemthing to do with the police force.

WORST EPISODE EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GOD!!!I SWORE THAT IF IT WAS A LOOP ID KILL MYSELF!!!!

That was one good episode... Almost made me cry...

oh and the part about the people or roger giving up his memories willingly was probably because he accepted the reset because things didnt quite pan out to be the best of things.

i think its all more about the city and the nature of it rather than the characters themselves.

oh and has anyone else noticed that the old rosewater the one who was the father of the "tomatos" is the only one that has seemed to age. in the picture where roger is shaking hands with him...old guy is much younger but roger has not aged at all.

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Originally posted by Zola Dorothy was still in the new reality. Does that mean that Angel came to to the point that she recognized that Roger and Dorothy have a bond, and neither is fully complete without the other? If she was the one rewriting the book, after all, she could very well have written Dorothy right out and had Roger to herself. By that last shot, it looks like perhaps they are even friends. Was it Angel's atonement for almost letting Gabriel destory Dorothy? That most of all was when she realized how much Dorothy meant to Roger, and she was completely devastated by her own inaction, so much so that she apologized even though Dorothy said it was unnecessary. If someone you love doesn't feel the same way about you and falls in love with someone else and you are a mature and caring person, you will accept this and wish that person happiness in their choice. You will even take pleasure in it once your intial sadness over your loss fades. Why? Because you love them and you want them to be happy. Is that what Angel did with Roger and Dorothy?

I don't think Angel could write out either Roger or Dorothy; they were in the control room, and I suspect they too had the ability to mess with the action. I also don't think Angel wants to write either of them out; she is too fundamentally decent to do so.

The question in my mind: Is there any place for Angel in Roger's life? As I see it, it's hard to compete with someone who's taken up residence in your intended's head as Dorothy has Roger's. (She know what he's feeling, can sense him losing conciousness, and talks to him to keep him alive until she can reach him.) So at best there will be a Dorothy-Roger-Angel triad. Maybe if kids become a priority.

Pygmalion

To me, now, the Big O is a cross between the (silent movie) Metropolis, Dark City (if you can't see the relevance to that...-_-), and...

THE TRUMAN SHOW!!

I'm disappointed. Introduction of new (staple) characters (when Sunrise really didn't need to), intro of Big Venus (ergh), introduction of mass produced Roger Smiths...mass produced Megadeii...and directors.

My theory:
No, Angel wasn't the first (director), Gordon was..and chose Roger Smith to negotiate with his son. Angel was also the daughter of Gordon Rosewater and Vera whatsherface, hence the last name. She could have written the book (if she was, in fact, a memory from a period lost in time), or she could have finished it.

Roger as a bum...perhaps it was those memories that he didn't want to define himself, so to start over was to make it so he could begin anew as a (rich) negotiator.

Big Venus and Big O... probably opposites meant to balance each other out.
Besides Big Venus, there was another Big that I saw.......either that or it was Venus without (the feathers taken off).

Union...simply people left behind by Paradigm, not actually foreigners..didn't Vera say something about that?

But, as God fell in love with the Humans (made them the "chosen" ones, with free will), Gordon fell for the world he created, Angel fell for Roger...and the book "Metropolis" being the 'bible' that is used as the basis for the "show" or "stage". Angel, Gordon, Roger, Dorothy, all those people are more like angels themselves, perhaps not having free will but predetermined destiny, only following the will of "god", or just lines in a script. Actors on a stage...hmph.

Anyways, I'm still disappointed...playing with people's lives as if they were characters in a show and only characters...not actual people..it's not right.
It seems as if the entire (last 13 episodes) could have been something else entirely...as if this second season was just thrown together...it just doesn't seem like the right ending. Perhaps a 'Prequel' type of series could help explain things, like the great war, the creation of the Megadeii as well as the creation of the androids....or that big-azz set!

Argh..I have some more thinking to do.

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Originally posted by margarita678 I think it can all be tied to the fact Angel hates Dorothy because Roger chose her.

What makes you think Angel hates Dorothy? She doesn't. Take a look at STRIPES again. Angel blows her entire credibility with the Union because she is so desperate to protect Dorothy from harm.

While I am not dissing the whole Cycle idea per say, as it is big in most of the world, Christianity is based on non-cyclical linear time.

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Originally posted by Sessomaru quote: Originally posted by Name Of God quote: Originally posted by Sessomaru d) Angel is the fallen angel - Lucifer, and she created Paradigm City so that she could forget her fall. She wrote the book. But Angel IS NOT the true author! When Gordon asks the true author to finish the book he is not refering to Angel. I thought it was pretty clear Gordon was talking to Angel, but it went by pretty fast, so I can't swear to it. What I recall was: 1) Gordon takes Angel to Floor 666. 2) We get an awesome shot of Angel's legs as they walk off the elevator. (Sorry, off-topic). 3) Angel grows wings and flies off to the edge of the grid. 4) As a few feathers fall around him, Gordon holds up the book and makes a plea to "the true author of the book" and fades away. 5) The next time we see the book, the author is listed as "Angel Rosewater."

So, after Angel leaves Gordon begins speaking? I'm sorry, but that is not enough evidence to convince me.

Everyone originally thought that Gordon Rosewater was the first author, and that he reset things the first time, 40 years ago. However, he denies this. Just because his name is on the cover was not proof enough to say that he was the author. If you say Angel was the true author just because her name was on the cover of the book, then you are making the same mistake that the people of Paradigm made about Gordon.

Big Venus may be the true author, but I'm not sure about that either.

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Originally posted by Negotiator WORST EPISODE EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GOD!!!I SWORE THAT IF IT WAS A LOOP ID KILL MYSELF!!!!

Well, don't tie that hangman's knot quite yet.

It seems to me that the cycle has been at least mostly broken. Instead of cycling back 40 years to play it all again, Angel's spun the clock back only a little bit. Maybe she's put it back to the time of Act 1, but given how unhappy Angel was during that period, maybe she's spun it back only a few hours, to before the destruction.

So people don't get sent back to the beginning to keep doing it until they get it right, they get to go forward.

I think its parallel dimensions. for example, the interdimensional elevator that brought Angel and Gordan from "Paradigm City" to the transformation place. Gordan relinquished control over to Angel, and dissapeared first in a long line of vanishing stuff. Angel, who had no memory of 40 years ago, and did not care, was in charge. It was because of this that people did not remember. The tomato experiments were basically cloning to get an answer. However, it was in vain, because people forgot by their own will, even if it was subconcious. That would explain grown up characters having little versions of themselves running around, and how Roger seems to not age. RD was not RD, RD stands for the Roger-Dorothy pair. They're inseperable, proven by how Big O needs both of them for its ultimate form. Besides, Roger has the RD barcode in his eye. Evil Dorothy, as she is called, was programmed by Alex to kill off the memory kids, because they were gonna tell everyone how Alex planned to screw them over. Also, all the memory kids thought they were from a foreign nation. A nonexistant one. Just like the Union members. However, there probably was a megadeus war. Both this ep and Hydra show the mass amounts of Big Os, and the cloned Rogers used to fight. You can tell them apart by their jumpsuits. Wanna bet there were a whole bunch of Michael Seebach robots? Here's proof, the Leviathan in ep 17 is actually called Leviathan #17. Dorothy even refers to it as a ghost. It was the archetypes vs the Bigs, and Big Venus was Megadeus ex Machina. Here, Big Venus comes up to pave away all the destruction. However, Roger was sent to negotiate with god. Angel and Roger were both their, connected to their megadeuses, and yet also in the real world. When the megadeuses merged, they became self aware of their other existance in the alternate universe, where they had a TV show starring themselves, and were able to come together in the control room to start negotiations. and what did they decide? the past was unnecessary. throw away the Megadeus war, and megadeuses entirely. Roger chose to be not Roger the Dominus, Roger the Tomato, or Roger the Wanderer, but instead, just Roger the Negotiator. Thus is why he's lacking his Big O watch.

I'd like to point out the part where Angel is at her stage, and is crying on top of a TV. Then it pans out, and we see on a TV the image of Angel crying on the TV. Which pans out to a TV which shows the TV of Angel crying on the TV. Then it pans out again... It does this a few times. Then of course, it pans out to Angel watching Big O on her console. Then it can pan out again to us watching Angel watching Big O. So, who's watching us? Possibly another hidden message.

thanks R.Smith....i think im going insane haha....i could have swore that the paradigm hq was the building leaning at the end of episode 26

thanks for clearing this up for me

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Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Negotiator WORST EPISODE EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GOD!!!I SWORE THAT IF IT WAS A LOOP ID KILL MYSELF!!!! Well, don't tie that hangman's knot quite yet. It seems to me that the cycle has been at least mostly broken. Instead of cycling back 40 years to play it all again, Angel's spun the clock back only a little bit. Maybe she's put it back to the time of Act 1, but given how unhappy Angel was during that period, maybe she's spun it back only a few hours, to before the destruction. So people don't get sent back to the beginning to keep doing it until they get it right, they get to go forward.

Yeah, the fact that the building was smashed and leaning over, yet it is essentially episode 1 again except for that, leads us to conclude that things are continuing on, that things aren't starting completely fresh like the last time. People are continuing with their lives.

perhaps roger doesnt have his Big O watch in the cyclic end because he has actually lost the memories of Big O. or it could of just been an overlooked detail that the animator forgot to put in...