The TRUTH about Angel! *SPOILERS TO THE MAX!*

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Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix You know, the fact that the beasts stand for emperors who felt they were gods works here...if Angel is the next "god" of Paradigm (writer of Metropolis), then it makes sense in a way...she is the self-made god of Paradigm, just like the Roman emperors (who were sinners and begotton from Lucifer) were self-made gods of Rome. Therefore, you have a further parallel.

Another point on the number 666...In Christian numerology, 6 is the number representing man or humanity, and 3 represents God. So, if you put down three sixes, you are in a way saying that man is God. Alex desperately wanted to make himself a god. Angel *is* the god of Paradigm City. When everything is rewound, Angel is a real woman living in what looks like another version of Paradigm. I don't know what supernatural attributes we can give to *that* version of Angel.

"Antichrist" is often the name given to the beast who ultimately takes dominion over the earth; however, the word "anitchrist" is never used in Revelations--"antichrist" is a spirit mentioned in I Timothy. Anyhoo, in Rev. 13, the beast is given the authority to rule for *ahem* 42 months by the dragon (Satan). Okay, it ain't the number 40, but it's close: "And they worship the dragon, seeing that it gives authority to the wild beast. And they worship the wild beast, saying, 'Who is like the wild beast?' and 'Who is able to battle with it?' And to it was given authority to do what it wills forty-two months."

Another interesting tidbit from Rev: In Chap. 9, John has a vision of Satan being cast out of Heaven. The description of what follows sounds a lot like Roger's "Event" memories: "And I perceived a star falled out of heaven into the earth...And he opens the well of submerged chaos, and fumes ascended out of the well as the smoke of a large furnace, and the sun and the air are darkened by the fumes of the well. And out of the fumes came out locusts into the earth, and license was granted them as the scorpions of the earth have license."

Okay, now I'm quoting myself from another thread because I'm lazy:

"A bird whose wings have been plucked will shed its feathers and turn into the beast it was before it evolved into a bird."

"The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be ascending out of the submerged chaos, and to be going away into destruction. And marvel shall those dewlling on the earth, whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world, when they observe the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present." Rev. 17: 8

It appears that Angel the Memory is inspired by the beast from revelation, but I'm not sure that's the same as Angel Rosewater the director. So, who is the dragon behind Angel? Angel Rosewater = Dragon, and Angel the Memory = Beast? Although I'm still a little reluctant to call Angel Rosewater Lucifer or Satan. Angel the Memory very much played the role of a destroyer...I don't know if that can be said of the director because in the end, the director in another version of Paradigm. It's unclear as to how much--if any--control she has over it.

Edited to add:

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So in other words, still disagree that 'angel rosewater' is Lucifer/Satan/the devil :-) from the Christian interpretation.

From a Christian perspective, you could also say that Satan is, ultimately, God's tool. Satan is used to get that victory found in Rev. So, the director could also have used the beast for the same thing. (Or is Roger Angel's tool? Sorry, couldn't resist that one.)

"Yeah, but..." thank you for explaining this in a much better fashion than I could have. I suppose I could go whip out some of the theological texts I have but it's somewhat boring reading :-).

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From a Christian perspective, you could also say that Satan is, ultimately, God's tool. Satan is used to get that victory found in Rev. So, the director could also have used the beast for the same thing. (Or is Roger Angel's tool? Sorry, couldn't resist that one.)

Now we might getting way out of hand here because again, the directors have stated that this is a mix of various allegories... but if Angel the director is really God, Roger is probably Christ, the mediator between man and God.

Gordon could be argued to be Lucifer ... and Alex the antichrist as well.
(Gordon gave Paradigm to Alex after all.)


I still remember in one of the earlier episodes where Roger was fastened onto a cross like shape. (This was in the silly Beck episode) However, that cross wasn't the Christian cross but something else... it might simply be cool visuals or be interpreted from a more teutonic perspective. I don't know.

ANYWAYS... I still want to see this explained from the theatre perspective as well as this is another important thematic element.

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Originally posted by s-girl I still remember in one of the earlier episodes where Roger was fastened onto a cross like shape. (This was in the silly Beck episode) However, that cross wasn't the Christian cross but something else... it might simply be cool visuals or be interpreted from a more teutonic perspective. I don't know. ANYWAYS... I still want to see this explained from the theatre perspective as well as this is another important thematic element.

The final scene with Big O and Big Venus had Roger adopt a similar position with his arms outstretched like he was tied to the cross.

At that point, was he "giving" himself up literally? Or did he mean in his speech at the end that he was going to give up his "memories" once again?

Christian religion-wise, most of us know that Christ gave his "body" up so that he could open the gates of Heaven, etc. for the rest of us. Comparatively, one could measure Roger's intentions to be the similar in that respect.

Come to think of it, don't we see Christ as a "negotiator" of sorts? Yeah, yeah, way out there... Anyway, just thinking out loud and yes, I think Angel's the Devil too (for now).

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Originally posted by s-girl First - the interpretation of Revelations is not interpreted by all Christians to refer to the past Roman empire, but the tale of the end of the world before a new heaven and earth are formed and man will be reunited with God literally. Big Venus = Beast/Bird/whatever... the point is that it's rewriting things and the verdict as to how things are rewritten are up to the creator /writer of the book Metropolis, which we learn is Angel Rosewater. Roger was trying to negotiate how things would be rewritten... and from the ending it appears that he was *successful*. We see Angel as "human" (although whether this is another show within a show, who knows), and we see the timeline start from where our show began. As far as the antichrist - clearly it's Alex Rosewater - the man who elevated himself to a godlike position. The Lucifer analogy doesn't make sense if we are to interpret the ending from a Christian perspective because the book of Revelations ends with God victorious over Lucifer, Lucifer destroyed and man and God reconciled in heaven. So in other words, still disagree that 'angel rosewater' is Lucifer/Satan/the devil :-) from the Christian interpretation. However, I still think that we have to watch out for overinterpreting it from this perspective. The directors have combined a number of various concepts here..

Well, your first point isn't exactly accurate. Granted, Revelation does offer hope to Christians and affirms God's victory over evil at the end of time, but it is not meant to be directly interpreted to be how the world is going to end.

I'm not exactly sure about other Christian interpretations of Revelation, but Roman Catholicism does acknowledge that Revelation is Apocalyptic Literature, and that a great deal of what is written in Revelation is code and symbolism. It is important to understand the context in which Revelation is written--it was written during the persecution during Domitian. Therefore, yes, Revelation is meant to declare that God will be victorious in the end, but there is also some bashing of the Roman Empire (comparisons to Babylon/Mother of Whores, the beasts being the Roman Emperors, etc.)

Eh, I'll be back later to draw some new interpretations...gotta get going.

I a little pissed at the control room Angel! I mean she basically ignored Roger and took away their memories once again! She does LOVE herself more than anyone! *whew* I thought Roger was going to say"The Angel I met, The Angel that loved me....." But instead " The Angel that loved herself more than anyone" burnedLOL! But I don't quite understand something who was the Roger in the control room?

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I a little pissed at the control room Angel! I mean she basically ignored Roger and took away their memories once again!

Did she though?? Im not so sure that she took all the memories away...I mentioned this in the episode 26 discussion on about page 8....

Anyway...

Angel being Lucifer...very interesting indeed. I have read so far what everyone has written, and the theories can make sense. However, I dont think that she is Lucifer. I think her character is made up of many symbolistic representations. Lucifer is indeed a fallen angel, and I think the creators drew upon that when creating Angel in the Big O. I dont think she is the actual Devil or Lucifer herself, only that the creators drew upon Lucifer's background when creating her for the show. She is the new director, she is the new guidance behind Paradigm after the "reset" occurred, and I support s-girl in that Roger was negotiating in how the new Paradigm would be created...either with the memories intact and thus enabling the Paradigm actors to change roles based upon the memories of the past, or with the memories erased and the actors reverting to how things were when their memories were erased.

Because Alex was the God of Paradigm during the first and second season, we really dont know Angel's perspective on things and whether she will be tyrannical like Alex and become power hungry or whether she will be a benevolent God, probably the way Gordon Rosewater originally intended Alex to be...Angel still hasnt molded Paradigm to her will, remember, its just been reset...

I think at this point Angel is God, not Lucifer or the Devil, but she has personality traits and origins that are similar to Lucifer...and the creators drew upon those when creating her...

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Originally posted by GummiBear289 I a little pissed at the control room Angel! I mean she basically ignored Roger and took away their memories once again!

It's not clear to me that this is true. The film convention of ending a movie with a repeat of the beginning USUALLY means that "the danger is past and things are more or less back to normal," though it can also mean that things are really repeating.

It would be easier to tell if you got a good look at the skyline to see if the domes are there or not, so you could tell whether history proceeded forward from the time of Big Venus' appearance or was wound back. But the folks putting together Big O are demons for creative ambiguity. You can read it any way you like.

Dorothy was wearing her Smith Mansion outfit and Angel looked happy -- two things that would be anomalous at the time of the first episode.

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Dorothy was wearing her Smith Mansion outfit and Angel looked happy -- two things that would be anomalous at the time of the first episode.

Very good observation, a very key one, indeed. You're right, now that I think about it, didnt Dorothy wear a blue dress in the first episode while she was kidnapped? interesting stuff....

Recall that according to Paul, 'Satan is the God of this world.' meaning that he is the ruler of the physical world as we experience it during mortal life. His Gnostic followers--and the theology in Big O is more nearly Neoplatonic-Gnostic than orthodox Christian--the Devil (called by varoius names) is also the creator of the world.

Lucifer (light bearer) is actually the Latin name for the planet Venus. The term became associated with the devil by early Christians who misread a passage of Isaiah (where he predicts that the king of Tyre is going to fall as surely as Venus sets) as refering to the devil.

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Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix An ammendment to my Angel=Roman Empire (according to Revelation) theory... Hmmm...now that I'm thinking, perhaps Angel can, actually, be Lucifer, therefore making Big Venus the beast. At Angel's beckoning, Big Venus rose from the ground (or sea...doesn't matter, there were two beasts). However, this would mean that although Angel is controlling Big Venus, she didn't become Big Venus... Eh, I'll have to think a lot more on this, but I think the fact that the Roman Emperors were self-appointed gods is important and can be applied to Angel/Big Venus (especially with Roger's monologue...he was basically denying that Angel, as Director, had any control over them or their memory).

Big Venus's hair and facial structure strongly suggest Gordon Rosewater. It would appear Angel is using Gordon again as a deus ex machina, just the way Gordon was used to write the original book that describes/creates Paradigm city. In a sense Gordon is the Hand that both creates/destroys Paradigm, although the Will that guides that Hand belongs to another.

I'm not sure if Angel was in fact the original creator of Paradigm. It seems as if several characters managed to walk off the stage and go behind the scenes, perhaps even changing the way the story was meant to end.

Let me throw these definitions in here for people to puzzle over:

Angel: The producer of a stage show.
Angel:<operating system> A single address space, micro-kernel
operating system for multiprocessor computers, developed
at Imperial College and City University, London, UK.

The world definitely got reset. The scene is almost shot for shot identical to the first scene of the show. But I didn't understand the weird looking Angel and Dorothy.... that puzzles me. The world doesn't seem to be the same as the last time it got reset...And I'm trying to figure out if the Event happened or not, and if the people in this reset have memories or not...Also how did the people of Paradigm City not figure out that they were androids? You'd think they'd notice...

See, I think the world was reset only to the point where it could be inhabited by people again...granted, after the fight between Big Fau and Big O...Paradigm was messed up big time. I think it was reset to a point where it could be lived in, but the memories werent erased from the people...so...in essence, it was only partially reset when compared to 40 years ago...

Wow talk about mind blowing revelations.

Maybe Angel wants to live in paradigm as a normal person because a part of her doesn't want to be Lucifer anymore. So 40 years ago things were reset and she became a normal person in the city even losing her own memories because she didn't want to remember what she was. But since it's a loop she's forced to remember and make the choice again, reset and forget.

I fully translated the book scan about Lucifer. 645 if you want to upload it to your webspace I'll replace the picture in my post with a link to it later.

• Attachment: bigolucifer.jpg

Lucifer was the name given to the angel who had fallen from heaven, taking 1/3 of the heavenly host who also wished to rebel against God.

However, after that fall, Lucifer is usually referred to as Satan from my recollection.

Is this a distinction that is important?
"Lucifer" prior to his rebellion, "Satan" post-rebellion.

Also , could it be that this constant reference to Lucifer was meant to be a red herring just as Alan GAbriel's name was also a red herring? (Gabriel is the name of the archangel who is amongst the most powerful of heavenly host. I think it is Gabriel, or perhaps Michael, who is to fight Satan on that day the final battle occurs.)

And as for Revelations - there are 3 major camps on the interpretation of the timeframe under which it occurs. It is supposed to be a symbolic/prophetic text to be interpreted... but some believe it refers to things that occurred (e.g., the persecution of Christians as stated in this thread -- already occurred and done with), our current state of the world, or things to come. BTW -I should have been careful about throwing around the terms "end of the world." I had meant to talk about the end of the earthly world, but not the end of everything altogether. A new heaven and earth are to come to pass according to the book of Revelations.

One could interpret the reset according to that paradigm. "A New world.."

But anyways, back to Angel...
Sorry to repeat myself from the ep26 thread, but I think one thing that just struck me is that we don't know what Angel is now.

She began the series as a "?" and one of the various openings this season poked fun at that (Roger was negotiator, DAtsun- officer, R. dorothy - robot, etc. etc.).

Angel ends the series this way as well. Neat work on part of the creators.

Purgatory City maybe?

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" The Angel that loved herself more than anyone"

Which is typically the explanation of Lucifer's fall from heaven, egotism and pride in the face of service to the almighty. Interesting stuff.

Wow, I hadnt even BEGUN to think of this theory. (Though, I do lack the artbook or whatever). VERY interesting stuff. Damn, I really love this place even more now.. )

So Angel is the memory of Big Venus from the past.

And she reversed her role as Satan by meeting Roger Smith and changing the way she thought.Thus becoming God.

This is some deep sh**.

hmmm.......

Then if Angel is the representation of lucifer , Roger is God and maybe there is a true angel of Paradigm? Sorry I don't know what I'm smoking. Hey but I've noticed something.
Season one- Revoled around Roger.
Season Two- while all characters were important in the end Angel was more focused on this season.
Season Three-???? Dorothy's story??? Norman??? Dastun???

omg11 i can rite now111 thanx pagina(say w/ spanglish accent) as 4 angel, i think she she should go to heven and burn(inside joke) im soo glad that i can finally post who wants too be mi amigo/a?

Hola Bllue!
Yo queiro ser tu amiga! Hola soy GummiBear y bienveninda a los foros de Paradigm! Espero que te devertes MUCHO!!!!!! Si y soy FAN de Roger. Roger es mi papichulo! Check your PMs!