Androids and Gender--Resurrected 11/19!

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Originally posted by Zola First, a picture. Can anyone tell me what these three lovely ladies have in common? PM me with your guess and I will post the answer in a couple of days.

I apologize by not PM'ing, but I think I know.

They've all slept with Bill Clinton.

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Originally posted by Zola If you were to build an android, would you make it male or female? Would you make it possible for that android to engage in just about every human activity? Why?

First, if I were to make an android, I wouldn't bother with gender at all. I'd be much more interested in its hight and the strength of its laser eyes. I'd send it to the donut shop every morning with 20 bucks, it would bring back a mocha and a chocolate glazed. If I ever catch that jock glare at me during sixth bell again, I'll have it step on his house.

But thats just me. Timothy Waynewright, on the other hand, had a very specific goal in mind when he built Dorothy (2). He just wanted a replacement daughter. Maybe not even that, as long as it looked the part and sung well, he was content

Dorothy said about her father, "even he never understood how I worked, how I thought." Dorothy sang, and looked nice, and thus fulfilled her fathers wishes. Any emotions she felt, and thoughts she had, were unnessessary to Mr. Waynewright.

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Some people say that it would all be a program, but I don't agree. I think you would do a base program to give certain values (hunger bad food good) and let the android learn the rest on its own.

This is exactly what I think. When the android is born, it's brain (or core program, whatever) begins at some initial state. The initial setup is configured by the creator. However, from the moment of "birth" and on, the android is in control of itself completely. Now, at first it would probably do whatever basic operations it was first given . . . walking, saying hello, being a maid or butler . . . but eventually it would learn things by encountering them in the real world, and as a response it would upgrade its core program. For instance, the android steps on a cat. The cat goes berserk. The android notes that the cat doesn't seem to like being stepped on and decides that it should avoid stepping on cats in the future if at all possible . . . eventually, the android could evolve into something far beyond what it was originally at birth . . .

Furthermore, this is quite like how we humans learn. As babies, we can do only certain things . . . cry, sleep . . . but babies quickly start experimenting with their environment, and after a while they learn new skills that they were not born with . . .

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Originally posted by Black Phoenix Furthermore, this is quite like how we humans learn. As babies, we can do only certain things . . . cry, sleep . . . but babies quickly start experimenting with their environment, and after a while they learn new skills that they were not born with . . .

You have hit the nail on the head. Any "higher" (and I use the term loosely!) animal learns. Bugs don't learn a great deal if anything at all probably because food is very plentiful when you're a bug and you don't need any fancy "extras" to find it. Any critter that has to really look for food starts to show a pattern of some instinct to get them started and then some learned behavior to make them better at it.

When you look at the class Mammalia, it's even more apparent. A lot of learning takes place under the category of "play". How to catch a mouse is NOT wired in, though, as anyone who has had kittens from a good mouser knows. When the kits are about 10-12 weeks old, mama generally brings in a live one for them to practice on. At first, they just play with it. If they get tired of it, mama dispatches it and brings another later.

At first all baby knows is basic sensations. Hunger, wet, cold, dry, comfortable, full....really basic creature-feelings. And that gets built on, they are literally "wired" that way.

If a human infant doesn't get the proper stimulation, they don't become human. If you look around, there are cases where a baby was raised by animals or horribly abused and deprived of even most basic necessities, and they are NOT human. They don't talk, they can't seem to learn, and many of them don't even function on the level that a chimpanzee can, all because they were deprived of that early learning.

So if every creature up to and including man does this, then clearly it's because it is a practical and effective way of doing it. Nature is not as inefficient as some would like to believe. So if I was going to try to make an AI, I would copy the natural world. I would set up basic feelings and get some labelled as pleasant and some as unpleasant, and then I would start giving it as much experience as I could.

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Originally posted by Zola I would set up basic feelings and get some labelled as pleasant and some as unpleasant, and then I would start giving it as much experience as I could.

A lot of this discussion on robot emotions and development is almost exactly similar to how the robots in Isaac Asimov's novels work. The robots came with all the technical information for their field, and their basic morality (the Three Laws). The more intelligent ones could expand on these, learning how they affected human emotions, and taking care to not do so - eventually even bypassing their original programming to follow what they considered higher callings.

This is a little off, but it's interesting to see that a lot of these theories on robot development (not only android, as robots are probably capable of growth as well) have been around for 30+ years.

This is a really great topic. Personally, I think you've got the right idea about making an android as functional as possible for either gender. Why else would one create something that's meant to be as completely human as possible, but deny it the essential parts to do so? This is one of the main reasons I don't believe, as some people have thought, that Dorothy is just a sexless body; a "Barbie doll", if you will. After all, wouldn't Wayneright (if he really did give her the ability to have or learn human emotions) want to build her as accurately as possible, and to the best of his ability? If he truly cared for her as a daughter, he would want her to be as close to human as possible.

Anyway, to get to my point, I don't think it would be ethical to build something that is so close to being human, but deny it the essential body basics. Clearly, creating and nurturing nearly-human androids would have to be dealt with in the same manner we create and nurture other humans: with the *utmost* care about all aspects of their well-being.

Which leads to your other question: Why make human-like androids at all? What would we use them for? In my opinion, it's just another example of our search for utopia. Perhaps if we created perfect "people" we could find our perfect paradise; our perfect society. Just a guess on my part, but you never know.

(And about those pics. I know what they're of, and the thought is, um, interestingly scary. Especially with all the improvements they're making on 'em.)

We're in perfect agreement about this subject. I could go on and on with examples, but why preach to the converted?

Back to your original question . . . what do you think of my idea that androids would grow into whatever gender they were cast in during their early lives?

Consider an android raised in the wild (just consider it! I don't care how stupid that sounds! ) . . . The fact that our android was created with a dress on would have absolutely no effect on determining its gender identity because there would be no social cues to pick up and no other women to serve as examples of ideal behavior.

Take the same android and raise it in an urban setting. Because of the rich environment it would have plenty of opportunities to encounter gender specific situations and good gender models, and it would probably grow to identify strongly with one of the sexes.

At least that's what I think . . . And I remember from a psych class I once took that this is how we humans learn to relate with one gender or the other (largely . . . I'm sure biology plays a significant part too . . . but the environment after birth is definitely a huge factor)

DoctorZhivago

Zola and I were talking earlier about Asimov type androids. Personally, I think the rules don't make much sense since they can lead to too many logical dead ends . . . I'd clarify but it would take a long, long post . . . if anybody is interested I will though . . .

However, you're right on the money about the more evolved androids becoming super-powerful by figuring out how to bypass the laws. To me, the laws are a restraint that are meant to separate androids from humans . . . "you will not harm humans at any cost" . . . those few who managed to get around the laws evolved into higher beings . . . the equal of humans, and in some cases far superior. Wasn't the android at the end of the foundation series both a super-genious and a telepath so powerful that he ended up deciding to alter mankind's society in order to unify it against possible invasion by aliens? He wasn't just doing some wishful thinking either . . . he could really do it. Now that's powerful. And he definitely didn't start that way . . .

Glad you brought Asimov up. Just one more cool thing to talk about.

It depends on the situation, if there are lots of other androids for my android to play with then yes, I would build a male android which would house all the normal emotions of a male human being.

If my android was the only android or one of a few that exist I would never build it, I could not give feelings or emotions to a being that is immortal, I would not allow a creation of my own to suffer the torment of watching the ones I "allowed" it to love and care for die, while they themselves can do nothing but exist. It would be quite painful to know those which you love will be dead, and you will knowingly have to replace them and remove them from your memories just so that you can live on, without falling into a psychological trauma yourself.

Unless of course I make an aging android then all would be fine and dandy.

Later

P.S. 2nd paragraph induced by too much zen music

Ah, but we humans would like to create something of our likeness, wouldn't we?

Self-image and self-worth are two important aspects of the human individual, so why not attempt to instill some of that into gender specification in android construction?

WEll to actually answer this question your asking you have to be specific you cant go by general, each android is in its own scense unic....

Why did Wayneright build Dorothy...... to replace his dead daughter....
well he built her to be in a sense to be his daughter...

What does ever father umm fear will happen one day......... his little girl will be all grown up .... dont worry this is going somewhere....

Does the father not get kind of sad but also happy when his little girl gets married and moves away....... for is that not the job all parents have to face in there life......

Does the father not get happy when he becomes a grandfather........ i know human birth can not be duplicated but.... think of the role of a father. to nurture his daughter till she is on her own......till she falls in love....

wayneright.... if he was a good father wouldnt create a puppet that would just wander his house keeping it in shape.....

remember in act 14....... when roger saw Dorothy(alive) getting out of the car and walking up to her date.... well wayneright said dorothy ( android) was his daughter ..... well im guessing the father set up that date with dorothy and the blone haired guy....ok time to bring this into perspective.

ok he made his daughter,not human but his daughter, hes a father who would let his daughter on date.. so she might fall in love... so she get married, has children......thats his job.....now Dorothy(robot) is the same....

falls in love, which she is doing, getting married which where not that far, have o wait she a robot , but atleast scnse she gott married she would have to show her love to her husband physically and i dont mean kissing.....why because the father is a father, he made his daughter (robot) to be a human thats what he thought of her anyways...

to be human, human..she looks human, she has hair,lips,ears,eyes,nose,breasts, the only thing is she can have intercourse but cant have children, just like she can have " Would you like some tea? a little but i cant really taste it." ... food but cant taste..... just like her having intercourse.....see all that sh** i said when i could of brought up the tea thing.


ahhh this has been a wate of my time and yours....Thank your friendly Capt.Quint

Bah, none of my thoughts came across well, I'll repost later.

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Originally posted by DoctorZhivago A lot of this discussion on robot emotions and development is almost exactly similar to how the robots in Isaac Asimov's novels work. The robots came with all the technical information for their field, and their basic morality (the Three Laws). The more intelligent ones could expand on these, learning how they affected human emotions, and taking care to not do so - eventually even bypassing their original programming to follow what they considered higher callings.

While of course I have read Asimov and enjoyed his books very much, the first thing I tossed when thinking this was the proverbial "Three Laws"

It's not a question of bypassing. You wire certain simple basics in. Then the androids program themselves, just like we do.

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Originally posted by Mr.Quint Does the father not get happy when he becomes a grandfather........ i know human birth can not be duplicated but.... think of the role of a father. to nurture his daughter till she is on her own......till she falls in love....

Not a waste at all.

I think you are saying that if you were going to make a child, you would make that child perfect in every way, correct?

I agree.

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Originally posted by Mr. ? To me, a human has to be biologicial. Has living cells, can heal itself...ect. The rest is made by humans, for humans.

You might want to take a look at Hans Moravec's Mind Children, for a different, and well-explained viewpoint.

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Originally posted by Zola quote: Originally posted by Golgo13 Basically if I were to build my own android it would be a textbook kind of design, humanoid but genderless. Capable of all human activity but emotion or subjective viewpoints. In a nutshell, Data from Star Trek but a metal chassis in place human details. Why?

Why build an android? Because I could. What would I use it for? A coat/hat rack when I can't think of anything better. The creations serve the master, and the master ever become too attached to his/her creations. My android would be a tool, nothing more.

i think androids will become the next great discovery actully it has been discoverd and made as well ive been doing research on these robots and pretty much looks and talks like a human but not really these robot will be avalible next year and im for andriods thell help our daily tasks more easy to do and itill be easy for the working man to do his job while the robot is cleaning your house and to ansewer zolas question id probley would love her the android to be my freind and a maid maybe...........

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Originally posted by OmegaMaN500 i think androids will become the next great discovery actully it has been discoverd and made as well ive been doing research on these robots and pretty much looks and talks like a human but not really these robot will be avalible next year and im for andriods thell help our daily tasks more easy to do and itill be easy for the working man to do his job while the robot is cleaning your house and to ansewer zolas question id probley would love her the android to be my freind and a maid maybe...........

omg ur so smart and androids will be out next yuear and we can buy therse robots at the store and im never ever gonnas use punctuatipn ever and ill never spell anything right so i can be cool just like you............

We're running about 5 correct answers to my question about the picture to 4 incorrect, with one person thinking about it and getting it correct on the second try.

I'll be posting the answer late tomorrow, so there is still time to get your guess in.

This thread has been fascinating because of all the different views people have about androids. It's a tough question, that's for sure.

If we could build intelligent androids, I suspect that some of the things we would use them for would be bodyguards or companions for the elderly.

I just don't think we should make the mistake of thinking they are incorruptible. If we develop a system that is sufficiently complex, we are running the risk of getting something that will eventually become self-aware, and once the android is self aware, all kinds of 'negative' behavior becomes possible. Perhaps on one level we know this and that's where some of the "robot runs amok" stories come from.

This has been very thought provoking, keep the posts coming

If you make androids that intelligent and capable of development, though, will they really be content in these mediocre tasks? You'd get a lot more of these renegades if they felt held down. The truly intelligent ones could only be used for important or technical work, where they'd know their value. As you make them more intelligent and human, you get the negative human traits as well - nobody wants to get stuck doing something boring their whole lives.

p.s.: BlackPhoenix, if you want to post your message on Asimov's Three Laws, I'd love to take a look at it - I'm a tremendous Asimov fan.

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Originally posted by DoctorZhivago If you make androids that intelligent and capable of development, though, will they really be content in these mediocre tasks? You'd get a lot more of these renegades if they felt held down. The truly intelligent ones could only be used for important or technical work, where they'd know their value. As you make them more intelligent and human, you get the negative human traits as well - nobody wants to get stuck doing something boring their whole lives. p.s.: BlackPhoenix, if you want to post your message on Asimov's Three Laws, I'd love to take a look at it - I'm a tremendous Asimov fan.

Actually, I think then you would see such an android act very much like a person who has a real vocation.

We all know people like this. How many of you have met a nurse who has a genuine gift for helping people? It's a nasty job, but s/he doesn't mind because for her or him, the greatest reward in the world is soothing the sick and hurt and seeing that they feel better.

The android might want to learn to do other things, but still be perfectly willing to act as a companion or body guard. The crucial difference is that being self aware, they would be able to choose. They might even love their "owner" and want to stay with them even if the work is boring

Feel free to get into Asimov at any time, because he has really shaped our thought about what androids are capable of and how they should be built. Black Phoenix, if you want to copy a few of the problems with an Asimovian android that you PM'ed me, I think that would be perfect.