Androids and Gender--Resurrected 11/19!

Before I even start this post, please let me make something clear. I am NOT interested in discussing, as zopwx2 so aptly put it, the "mechanics" of Orga-Mecha love.

First, a picture.



Can anyone tell me what these three lovely ladies have in common? PM me with your guess and I will post the answer in a couple of days.

What I want to talk about is why an android might be given a gender.

I mean, think about this for a minute. Why would we bother to make an android look like a male or a female, especially if said android wasn't...err....functional, let's say.

If you were to build an android, would you make it male or female? Would you make it possible for that android to engage in just about every human activity? Why?

For myself, if I was going to build one, I would make it as functional as possible. I think it's a creative thing--the android would be like my child, and I wouldn't deny my child the chance to experience love and all that goes with it.

I guess my philosophy is boiled down to "if I want it to be just like a human, it has to be able to do everything a human does, otherwise I will just make it genderless"

What would we use such androids for, other than the obvious? Is it our chance to finally play God and create a creature in our own image? Why do we have this fascination with human-like robots?

Discuss!

Basically if I were to build my own android it would be a textbook kind of design, humanoid but genderless. Capable of all human activity but emotion or subjective viewpoints. In a nutshell, Data from Star Trek but a metal chassis in place human details.

quote:

Originally posted by Golgo13 Basically if I were to build my own android it would be a textbook kind of design, humanoid but genderless. Capable of all human activity but emotion or subjective viewpoints. In a nutshell, Data from Star Trek but a metal chassis in place human details.

Why?

if i where to build a android it would ressemble dorothy that would be great )

im going to make a poll later this month

[Edit: Please don't double post. It's against the rules. --Krang]

quote:

Originally posted by OmegaMaN500 if i where to build a android it would ressemble dorothy that would be great )

But why? Why would you do it? How complete would she be? Would you want her as a toy? A companion? A friend? A maid?

If I built an android, I would definitely give it gender. The point of an android over a robot is that androids resemble humans, and humans have gender. I would probably make it's personality female (less violent, more caring, better for a prototype) and I would make a body to match. On the other hand, a male body would be better to hold the necessary mechanics…

well now I'm confused, but I definitely would give it gender.

The way I always understood human gender roles is that they are largely a learned thing. When parents have a baby boy, all of the baby's new stuff is blue. If it had been a girl, the baby's stuff would have been pink. From the moment we are born, we are cast into one of the two gender roles, and as we grow we adapt ourselves to fit these roles.

I can see the same thing happening with Dorothy. At first, Wayneright just threw a dress on Dorothy, gave her a feminine haircut, and called her his daughter (I'm guessing). Dorothy might not have originially associated herself with the female gender, but as she developed into a more complex being perhaps she grew into the female role that she was first cast in.

This is entirely from a mental standpoint though. I assume, however, that having a female body would also tend to cause Dorothy to learn to identify more with women.

I'm having a hard time articulating this point (grrr) so this is the best I can do for now . . . Perhaps I'll clean it up later . . .

PS - Let's post this same topic on the AS boards and see what happens . . .
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Just kidding . . .

It depends, if we want to make a worker/servant robot, the gender part wouldn't really matter. You could just make another android like the junkyard robot and use it to help you lift stuff.

But if by android, you want to fully recreate a human like robot, I think the first step is to assign gender.

If we think about humans are just really advanced and effcient machines, and over time we are being prefected. We have a "programming" in our instincts, but still have free will to learn.
same with an android. Its just metal insteat of organinc.

Yes, I think we should make a clarification:

Robot - A machine and nothing more . . . just used as a tool and not meant to have independent thoughts or feelings . . .

Android - A machine that approximates a human to some degree. Androids typically have free will and the ability to develop and learn just as a human. In a different thread I argue that if an android develops enough, it becomes so close to being human that it's almost impossible to tell that they're an android . . . When that happens, it seems silly to me to insist that they are somehow sub-human . . .

edit: If anybody wants to expand on or change these definitions, go for it! These are just my view at present . . .

Might not be exactly on-topic...

IMHO, it isn't so much about being a human (or like a human) as it is being a PERSON. The two are very different.

For example...one of my characters (not Big O related) is the central A.I. program for a starship. She has a holographic body she uses to interact with the passengers which is solid and appears 100% human. She has emotions and feelings just like any other sentient being, human or otherwise. She is most definitely a person, but at the same time is very far from "human."

If Dorothy acts like a person (which she does), then who is to say she is not a person in her own right?

I recall a passage from Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics.

quote:

We humans are a self-centered race. We see ourselves in everything. We assign identities and emotions where none exist. And we make the world over in our image.

With each line above the following pictures follow

A three prong electrical plug, the headlights and grill of a car, the top dial of a can of powdered Parmesan cheese and finally a simple smiley face.

All , if looked at in the right way, resemble a human face. Humanity has recreated itself since the first cave drawing. The degree of realism and humanity may very, but we feel safer around things that look like us.

We are still fighting over skin color and religious beliefs. Do you really think for a minute that if you built a mechanical robot and took it down Main Street, USA that someone wouldn't take offense to it, harm it, even destroy it?

The only way an android could learn about humanity is to be excepted by humanity. That means looking human, gender and all.

I'm going to need more time to think about this. It opens up some interesting ideas about our everyday world, that's for sure.

We are trying to make a human do as we wish. As close to a biological replica as we can get.


I would have a Dorothy like robot. Female, good looking, smart.

You make a good point about humanity trying to recreate everything in it's image. I've certaintly looked at an outlet and saw a face.

That could also explain why the megadei have a vaguely human form.

Dorothy is more than an Andriod. She has a geniuine human soul. She can love, something that no matter how brilliant the technolgy can't be programed. I view Dorothy as human because she acts and feels like a human, the rest is superficial from there.

To me, a human has to be biologicial. Has living cells, can heal itself...ect. The rest is made by humans, for humans.

I agree with you there, GummiBear289. That's what I was trying to say earlier . . .

But I guess it's all in how we define human . . .

To me, it is something different than being made of cells . . . the way I see humanity, to be human is to have acheived some state where you as a person are greater than the sum of your parts, whether those parts are biological or man-made.

To each his own though . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. ? To me, a human has to be biologicial. Has living cells, can heal itself...ect. The rest is made by humans, for humans.

Yes true to be human is to have cells that are living. Androids and Robots don't have that. But even only in fantasy it is interesting to ponder the question of whether andriods like Dorothy can have souls. I agree with Dark Pheonix! Is being made of cells the only component to being human ,to having humanity? Somehow I don't think so....

Define what a soul is and then we can debate whether an android has one. That aside, I wouldn't make an android. I'd sell the technology to Bill Gates and become rich, rich, RICH!

I don't think I'd personally want to create an android with human emotion or the ability to experience pain and pleasure. I'd just make a companion/pet type robot it would be non-humanoid, some type of animal or mythical creature. It would have an advanced AI that could learn, it can show emotion and could respond to other peoples emotions (though it wouldn't be perfect), but it wouldn't actually experience the emotions itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Chibi Dorothy I don't think I'd personally want to create an android with human emotion or the ability to experience pain and pleasure. I'd just make a companion/pet type robot it would be non-humanoid, some type of animal or mythical creature. It would have an advanced AI that could learn, it can show emotion and could respond to other peoples emotions (though it wouldn't be perfect), but it wouldn't actually experience the emotions itself.

Now to me, that would be horrid. The idea of something showing emotions that it didn't feel....

well, put it this way.

What if I came to you and said ChibiDorothy, your art is fantastic! It is so wonderful!

I would hope that you would feel a little glow of happiness that someone enjoyed it.

BUT. Then you find out that I can express the emotions but can't feel them. And suddenly that warm glow you felt is a total lie.

I personally would want androids to feel, and I personally believe they are going to have to feel in one form or another if they are going to be able to manipulate the world around them.

And if they feel, then I want to know what their actual feelings are, if you follow.

This does not preclude having an android for a companion. But you wouldn't want to mistreat said android and have them say it's okay.

I would want to give an android I made every chance to be a person, including being able to have likes and dislikes.

Some people say that it would all be a program, but I don't agree. I think you would do a base program to give certain values (hunger bad food good) and let the android learn the rest on its own.

So if I had an android companion and I was acting like a jerk, I would WANT it to tell me to stop being a jerk.