Big O's Larger Meaning

R Trusedale 10-13-2003 08:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Malkhos
quote:
Originally posted by R Trusedale
quote:
Originally posted by zopwx2
Wow that is pretty in depth. I guess most of us knew there was some sort of underlying message, especially in the name choice of many of the robots. I just didn't have as much knowledge as you.


You didn't know, you believed there was some underlying message. There is a difference. After the very erudite theological treatise here, how much more deeply do you now understand the show? How much does the fact that some giant robots are named after ancient pagan gods really explain?


In ancient thought, knowledge (gnosis)--something possesed by the mind (nous)--was an intuitive recongition, and might be had without full understanding or any way to explain it. Something arrived by reason, on the other hand, was uncertian--an opnion, even if a demosntrably right opnion.


Heh, I love it. We represent two very different Paradigms of thought. Oh and welcome to the club....
OmegaMaN500 10-13-2003 08:37 PM
i always knew threre was a religous background to big o even before everyone found out i mean come on omega pretty much explains it hehe
Malkhos 10-13-2003 09:45 PM
Heh, I love it. We represent two very different Paradigms of thought. Oh and welcome to the club....[/quote]

No, no! I am as much integrated into modern scientific rational thought as anyone! However, my business is to study tradtional ancient thought. I would also say that the ancient mindset, which we would today call irrational, is the inherent or natural condition of man, over which the modern paradigm was laid with considerable effort. But the older way of thinking was never and could never be erradicated or truely repalced. All of our most important beliefs, feelings, and personal communciations are predicated upon it. The is certianly true of the highly figurative symbols that give art, religion, and many other aspects of life their meaning, but which have no 'rational' value at all. And I think that it is obvious that Big O, just as mucha s any other meaningful art, is communicating in these types of symbols.
Malkhos 11-03-2003 02:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Malkhos


1. It seems that the robotic represents in anime what in traditional western literature is signified by the daemonic, something that is niether entirely human or divine. Roger, Dorothy and Big O seem to form a sort of trinity along the lines of Body, Soul and Intellect, representing three phases of existence (physical, spritual, and divine) of a single being. I think once they gain an enlightened self-understanding of how they are related, the story line will reach a resolution similar to that of Patrick MacGoohan's The Prisoner: they will gain access to their memories, all difficulties and concerns that they had will be dispelled as illusions, and they will fulfill whatever their ultimate role is to be.

2. 'negotiator' could well signify mediator, a figure that intercedes between the human and divine worlds, in other words a savior or Jesus.

3. 'Paradigm' could well signify the Platonic Forms, the true ideas that exist behind our accidental and illusorary perceptions that we mistake for relaity. The world of the forms is, of course, equated in Jewish and Christian belief with heaven.Perhaps the unjust tyrannical Paradigm City that we know so far is destinied to be stripped away and its true, just and heavenly nature revealed by Roger/Dorothy/Big O?

4. In Platonism as well as in the Gnostic and Jewish versions of Platonainism, the world as we experience it is made by the demiurge (craftsman), as a necessarily inferior phyiscal copy of the true world of the Forms. In many cases this creator is equated with Satan, and the world is viewed as as a prison designed to keep man from a redemptive return to Heaven. It seems easy to discern these concepts in Paradigm City and the Rosewater family.

5. Dagon, Leviathan, and Behemoth, were Caananite gods defeated and triuphed over by the Judeo-Christian God. I was just reading in another thread that a new characters is about to be intruduced called
spoiler (highlight to read):
Venus--Venus is the traditional Latin equivalent of Astarte, another Caananite god. Perhaps the ultimate conculsion will utilize themes of a quarelling, dangerous 'pagan' pantheon being replaced by a single redeeming God?


6. Megadeus (the pl. form would be Megadei) is a Greek-Latin Hybrid which signifies 'GreatGod.' Why on earth did the English dubbing render this as the meaningless 'megadeuce?' The names Big O, Big Duo, Big Fowl, etc., seem somewhat ridiculous. Are they in fact poor translations, as I suspect, of Buhhdist metaphysical terms? In the brilliant scene near the begining of the second season in which Roger views a play representing his memory of his first encounter with Big O, it seemed as if they wre going to any second reveal that the name meant 'Great Nothingness' or something like that. Dominus, in case anyone does not know, is Latin for 'master.'

7. In Platonic metaphyiscs, memories are not memories of the perceived world of illusion we inhabit, but memories of our true prior existence in heaven. These memories are washed away prior to our incarnation in our body by drinking the waters of the river Lethe (forgetufullness). We spend our lives trying to recover these lost memories through the senses; but the wise man realizes that this is doomed since the original cannot be recalled through a cheap copy, and instead looks within, gathering what snathces of mystic insight he can.


In addition, the following amterial is quoted form the Orpheus thread:

The spiritual part of Greek religion was the mysteries of Orpheus (or Orphism), which became, through Pythagoras, the foudnation of Greek philosophy.

According to this teaching, the first gods were the Titans or Giants, who were terrible, destructive mosnters. Their king Chronos (time) ate all of his childern, except Zeus, whom his mother hid away. When he grew to full godhood he came and defeated the Titans with his thunderbolts and chained them in a cavern in Tartaros, deep under the earth. Mankind was built out of the ashes of the Titans' physical bodies left over from the battle, this is why we have a fallen sinful nature and why we must rely on our imperfect phyiscal senses for knoweldge, instead of intuitively seeing the ture nature of things the way a god does. Orphism is the origin of the idea of divine judgement, that the souls of the dead will be rewarded or punished depending on whether they were sinners or not (guilty, or not guilty, as it were). Orphism was also the the origin of the idea that human sould (the divine, not Titanic, part of man) were pre-existent in heaven and, when they came into their bodies, drank form the river Lethe, the waters of forgetfullness, taking away their memories of the divine world.

An orphic sage could become a god by undergoing a ritual of katabasis (descent). In this he would descend into the underworld, beginning in some cave or chasm, going deeper underground until he reached the palace of the underworld gods, where he would meet and understand his true nature. When he emerged again from the earth he would be a god by virtue of knowing the true divine nature inherent in every human being.

I hardly need to elaborate how all of this was played out in episode 25, excpet to add that when Roger identified himself after his katabasis he said, 'I am who I am,' which is the answer God gave to Moses on mount Sinai when asked about his name.

I would not ordinarly think that something so obscure as Orphism would underlay a popualr television show like Big O, but the presentation of the material in this episode was all too clear and specific. It is not that surprising however, educated Japanese often learn far more about western spritiuality than westerners themselves do. I can hardly doubt that the creators of Big O were famialr with Orphsim and purpsoely set out to create an allegorical retelling of it--presenting this kind of religio-philosophical material in an allegorical fiction was a standard practice in antiquity, so that its secrets would not be too readily presented to the profane. Also, The explicit mention of Oedipus--while not specifically Orphic, in some sense authorizes or suggests to us to look to Greek material to explain the show's symbolism.


"Ten is the very nature of number. All Greeks and all barbarians alike count up to ten, and having reached ten revert again to the unity. And again, Pythagoras maintains, the power of the number 10 lies in the number 4, the tetrad. This is the reason: if one starts at the unit (1) and adds the successive number up to 4, one will make up the number 10 (1+2+3+4 = 10). And if one exceeds the tetrad, one will exceed 10 too.... So that the number by the unit resides in the number 10, but potentially in the number 4. And so the Pythagoreans used to invoke the Tetrad as their most binding oath: `By him that gave to our generation the Tetractys, which contains the fount and root of eternal nature...'"

(Aetius I. 3)

The significance of some of this material has become clearer with the last episode.

1. Big O, Dorothy, and Roger were revealed to be functioning as a single entitiy. In this case thier ultimately role is repeat their existence in a new reality (see no. 4 below).

2. Roger said that he had given up his memories voluntarily. Preseumably this applies to everyone in paradigm City. Moreover they had done so because only by forgoing memory oculd they experience temporal existence in Paradigm city. This corresponds still moree closely to the Orphic/Platonic scheme. Souls drink from the revier Lethe (forgetfulness) and descned to earth becuase they are seduced by the intoxication of the water. Without their memories of the heavenly world the sould are able to accept the sense impressions experienced in the world as reality--the philospher looses that ability to the degree he remebers the true existence in heavena nd so the world seems less and less real to him.

3. Angel is the demiurge (the devil in the Gnostic version of Platonism) who creates and rules the physical world. This does not contradict my earlier characterization of her as the imagination, since the iamgination was, for the Platonsits, the demiurgic pwoer within man, which constatnly created the world by comapring sense perception to the (unconscious) memory of the world of the Forms.

4. The last episode leaves little doubt that a Stoic cyclical world order is to be envisioned. Stricly speaking in Soticism, the world repeats itself exactly the same every time it is recreated. That does not seem to be the case here. This, then, is the Kabbalisitc version, in which the world is created and destroyed repeatedly until it is finally perfected in the messianic age.

5. As created beings, humans are esentially little differnt from Robots--at least in respect of their bodies.

6. According to the kabbalah, in this age the Torah (Bible) is black ink written on white parchement, but in the Messianic age it will be white fire written on black fire (a neagtive image). That must be the explanation for the transformtion of the Metropolis book to black, and the subsequent use of negative images.
Malkhos 12-05-2003 09:53 AM
I haven't look at the board here lately, but today I see that a lot of people ahve complained that no one has offered a synthetic interpretation of the show's symbolism. so I will bring to the top of the bosrd for the persual of anyone who is intersted.
Zopwx2 01-26-2005 06:06 PM
bump

---
I love this analysis a lot, really I do...but what have I said about simply "bumping" topics, Zop? Please consider this your last warning...in the future, I'll simply delete these posts. At least consider adding some insight, rather than just posting "bump." This isn't a forum like GameFaqs and Adult Swim, which tolerates single-word "bump" posts--here, it is spam.

--The Fallen Phoenix
Malkhos 01-26-2005 09:04 PM
Who 'bumped' this I have no idea, since I have not been here for a while--Although I was thinking about this forum since I finally got the DVDs for Christmas and have been watching them slowly. But it would certainly seem unjust to punish me by deleting the ananlysis I rather laboriously posted here for something someone else did.
The Fallen Phoenix 01-26-2005 09:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Malkhos
Who 'bumped' this I have no idea, since I have not been here for a while--Although I was thinking about this forum since I finally got the DVDs for Christmas and have been watching them slowly. But it would certainly seem unjust to punish me by deleting the ananlysis I rather laboriously posted here for something someone else did.


I never said I'd delete the analysis (which I still find superb, by the way), but rather the "bump" posts. Sorry for the confusion...I'll try to make things clearer in the future.

Getting back on topic, I still think this is the best allegorical analysis I've seen concerning Big O; everything fits very well, and there do not seem to be many (that is to say, no) contradictions or loose ends, as is relatively common with most theories.
Malkhos 01-26-2005 09:53 PM
Thanks, although it doesn't seem to have been very popular.

As you amy imagine I am somewhat isolated form the world of anime fandom. Could anyone suggest where an article along these line might be published--preferably in paper rather than electronically.

thanks for any suggestions.
BethMcBeth 01-26-2005 10:00 PM
Wow Malkhos! This is awsome! I just really love how indepth you are able to look into these things! Thats awsome! I mean I feel that oblviously there are many meanings and important details such as those its just that heck I don't have the training or anyhting like that! But wow this is so cool your ideas are awsome! Keep on posting them! ^_^"""
Paradigm Dog 01-27-2005 10:24 PM
Excellent job. I never saw this post. I have posted many times on here connecting BIG-O to world religion. This sums up a good deal of what I have been saying in far more exact terms. Thank you so much for doing this. BIG-O definitely is a show of metaphors. As I'll state later, the story isn't over yet. The City is still in Amnesia, so I don't imagine that the perfect messanic age has been reached yet. It's working toward it, but it's not there yet--do you agree? Visually, the world is still in hazy ruin as well.

If you want to see some more details that will support some of your theories (though some of mine I have since began to question just exactly how they work. They're close, but some of the roles might be switched a bit).do prove your Roger=Savior role though with visual evidence. Here's some more prying looks at BIG-O

SPOILERS ABOUND for ep. 1-26---

RELIGION:

http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thread.php?threadid=8489&


http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thread.php?threadid=9675&

MY FIRST POST--like you, also on Religion. However, while I have a lot of good biblical observations, things don't quite add up:
http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thread.php?threadid=2294

THEMES:
http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thread.php?threadid=10498

(a friend's thoughts combined with mine)--Philosophical context w/ "Evil Genius" theory:
http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thread.php?threadid=10739


I want to note some things to you though.

-BIG-O is technically not over yet. As you essentially stated, I beleive that Roger, Dorothy, and the BIG-O still have the set things right. The creators want to continue thes series (allegedly 26 more episodes), but sadly the funding isn't there right now so us fans are having to do lobbying.

With that, did you catch the Roger line about standing in the rain without an umbrella and "that's what it means to live free". The only people who stand in the rain without an umbrella are Roger, Dorothy, and Angel.--in the Hyrda episode.

-You might like to know that there's a lost episode of BIG-O. A Radio Play released only in Japan once BIG-O was cancelled at ep. 13 (ep. 14-26 came because of fan lobbying a few years later). There is HEAVY Wizard of Oz symbolism in this with many meanings and it talks of how the megadei are the embodiment of memories. I've picked up a good deal of things from this after reading it 3 times over--but haven't arranged it on a post on this site. I definitely think you should take a look at this. With your more extensive background, I bet you could tap out its secrets. Here's a link. I deduce it takes place between ACTs 12 and 13.

http://konaka.com/alice6/big-o/pdf/The_Big-O_Theater.pdf

-I've recently discovered that the head writer of BIG-O Chiaki J. Konaka is a huge fan of HP Lovecraft and Lewis Carrol. Upon looking up info on HP Lovecraft, I realized BIG-O was heavily influenced by it. Dagon is also in Lovecraft and has mini frogmen servents just like in BIG-O's episode 7. Also, there's underwater buildings, a city in the desert, etc. He also speaks of if the truth of reality was revealed to man they would go mad--within his fictional story.

-There are obviously many influences in Konaka's BIG-O. Having a Christian/spiritual background those Bibilical connections came to mind first, but I've discovered many things from Lewis Carrol, Wizard of Oz, Fritz Lang's Metropolis also play a big role in the story's source material of inspiration. Big-O is a combination of great thoughts with religion as the staple I believe.

All right, with all this and your post we should be pretty close to adding up the truth of BIG-O...maybe. Still, I hope the rest of the story is told. As it is, the ending is rather gloomy. Cartoon Network has to be convinced on helping to fund it though, and they haven't bit yet, even though they optioned the last episodes, they never went through with the deal.