I am what I am - Poor Dorothy......

Oh, that was so sad...Roger and Dorothy work so well together (even if you don't agree with my romantic POV). I was hysterical at the end of that episode; a week is so long to wait to find out about Dorothy!

You gotta love Roger's reaction...barreling through his own bloody house like that. Go Roger! Get back our Dorothy!

So many people seem to use her as nothing more than some kind of tool.

What's probably the most depressing thing about that fact is that Tim Wayneright is not exempt from it. R Dorothy was created primarily to fill the emotional void left behind from his loss of a loved one. Wayneright probably never really cared for R Dorothy herself if you think about it, or at least never really considered her to be her own person. She's just a tool made to act out his fantasy.

Imagine for a moment that you woke up into a world where your role was explicitly written out, where you were expected to act and talk in specific ways, where you had no choice over the person you were supposed to be. A lot of the characters in this show have that same dilemma, and the only way for Dorothy to escape from it is to establish her own identity.

But in order to do that she has to want it. She has to find something worth living for, something to justify her own existence. The big question is whether or not she is capable of doing just that.

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Originally posted by GummiBear289 won't accept her love because Roger has reminded her so feverously that she is an andriod... Roger LOVES her

There is no proof for this.
And Dorothy is an android, everything she "knows" is from a program that was written by someone when she was coded. If she thinks she "loves" someone, she's just following a program.
As she said before, "I don't understand the emotions you humans have." She may be capable of some abstract understanding along those lines, but in that sense she is not original. Her analysis of herself is unfortunate, but correct.

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Originally posted by Jr. There is no proof for this. And Dorothy is an android, everything she "knows" is from a program that was written by someone when she was coded. If she thinks she "loves" someone, she's just following a program. As she said before, "I don't understand the emotions you humans have." She may be capable of some abstract understanding along those lines, but in that sense she is not original. Her analysis of herself is unfortunate, but correct.

I don't think you are correct. Dorothy learns, therefore she is not static therefore everything she knows is not from a program.

As a programmer, I can tell you that to try to code every conceivable situation a robot might run into is impossible. Because of this, I theorize that Dorothy is built much like us, with some basic core values and the rest she learns for herself.

She isn't at the mercy of her programs any more than you or I are at the mercy of our sex-drives.

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Originally posted by Jr. There is no proof for this. And Dorothy is an android, everything she "knows" is from a program that was written by someone when she was coded. If she thinks she "loves" someone, she's just following a program.

Although Roger never admits it vocally, his actions speak for themselves. I'm pretty sure that when he went to rescue Dorothy in this week's episode that he didn't forget that HIS MANSION WAS IN THE WAY.

I don't think it's romantic, but there's something there. Roger never actually denies it, either. He often avoids the question or says it's "preposterous," but that might just be showing that he's having a hard time coming to terms (no pun intended) with his own feelings. He thinks it's irrational and attempts to ignore it, much in the same way he does with fear.

Also, everything that we as human beings "know" results from chemical reactions in the brain. Everything that we learn results from observations weighed against pre-conceived notions that we've developed for ourselves in the past. I don't think that Dorothy is fundamentally different from this. Perhaps not as advanced in this respect, but keep in mind that her mind is probably much younger than what the age of her physical body was constructed to resemble. She still has much to learn, and it's been shown that she has both a desire and capacity to do so to some extent.

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Originally posted by GummiBear289 Welcome! Very interesting! Excellent analysis. spoiler (highlight to read): Dorothy is really a keeper of secrets. Do you remember that I can lie too thing.She was given Dorothy's memories about the past including her memories of Major Smith. She remembered those memories of love when Beck was controlling her in The Greatest Villian.Dorothy may know about the Megadeuses memories because most likely Timothy Wayneright was the creator of the megadeuses.I'm also guessing Tim was a foriegner.

Thanks!

Yes, it was quite odd for her to start saying "I love you" out of the blue. Beck didn't program her to say that. "I love you" had to come from somewhere.

This is quite depressing, that Dorothy has been nothing but a tool. I'm not quite sure that she's not aware of her "emotions". She certainly has them, and has displayed them before. In Act 2 (I think), she shows jealousy by tearing up the card Angel gave Roger and throwing it away. In Act 21 when Roger comes to her rescue, Dorothy smiles a little as Angel leaves--a clear sign of happiness. And in "Twisted Memories," she can be concerned with the fact that she's lied.

The more I think about it, Dorothy was in a (I don't know exactly what to call it) saddened (?) state at the beginning of Act 23, and I guess it all went down hill from there.

And let's not forget her other primary emotion...fear.

Both in Act 4 (after she wakes up the Archetype and it's chasing them) and again in Act 17 (where she suddenly starts speaking robot-nese and claps her hands over her mouth, then turns to see one of the Leviathan papers), she has definitely been afraid. It's more obvious in the second one, I think.

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Originally posted by Jim Starluck And let's not forget her other primary emotion...fear. Both in Act 4 (after she wakes up the Archetype and it's chasing them) and again in Act 17 (where she suddenly starts speaking robot-nese and claps her hands over her mouth, then turns to see one of the Leviathan papers), she has definitely been afraid. It's more obvious in the second one, I think.

Yeah, those are really good examples. I had forgotten about those.

spoiler (highlight to read):

"Dorothy may know about the Megadeuses memories because most likely Timothy Wayneright was the creator of the megadeuses.I'm also guessing Tim was a foriegner." So here's another question: Was Timothy Wayneright also involved in building the Paradigm City? We know that Major Smith was involved with the construction of the domes from the photo with Gordon (a dome is being erected in the background). If Wayneright were also involved, is this how Major Smith met the original Dorothy? And if Wayneright were a foreigner and supposedly built the megadeuses to "protect" Paradigm, might he have been a part of the Union (or Proto-Union) and built the megadeuses to turn on Paradigm instead? Okay, that last bit may be a little farfetched. Or maybe not...Whether he had a hand in the Event or not, was he prepared to build a replica of his daughter in case she was killed?

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Originally posted by "Yeah, but..." quote: Originally posted by Jim Starluck And let's not forget her other primary emotion...fear. Both in Act 4 (after she wakes up the Archetype and it's chasing them) and again in Act 17 (where she suddenly starts speaking robot-nese and claps her hands over her mouth, then turns to see one of the Leviathan papers), she has definitely been afraid. It's more obvious in the second one, I think. Yeah, those are really good examples. I had forgotten about those. spoiler (highlight to read): "Dorothy may know about the Megadeuses memories because most likely Timothy Wayneright was the creator of the megadeuses.I'm also guessing Tim was a foriegner." So here's another question: Was Timothy Wayneright also involved in building the Paradigm City? We know that Major Smith was involved with the construction of the domes from the photo with Gordon (a dome is being erected in the background). If Wayneright were also involved, is this how Major Smith met the original Dorothy? And if Wayneright were a foreigner and supposedly built the megadeuses to "protect" Paradigm, might he have been a part of the Union (or Proto-Union) and built the megadeuses to turn on Paradigm instead? Okay, that last bit may be a little farfetched. Or maybe not...Whether he had a hand in the Event or not, was he prepared to build a replica of his daughter in case she was killed?

You read my mind...

spoiler (highlight to read):

I don't know where to start because I agree with everything you said. I believe the connection between Roger and Dorothy is that they are both replicas of their former selves. I also believe that Major Smith and Dorothy had fallen in love but it was forbidden. Timothy was probably very involed in the construction of the domes and megadeus' and the reason why Dorothy remembered the song in episode 20 was because her father was a foriegner. But Dorothy was built recently when Dr. Wayneright recovered his lost memories and implanted them in Dorothy.

)

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You read my mind... spoiler (highlight to read): I don't know where to start because I agree with everything you said. I believe the connection between Roger and Dorothy is that they are both replicas of their former selves. I also believe that Major Smith and Dorothy had fallen in love but it was forbidden. Timothy was probably very involed in the construction of the domes and megadeus' and the reason why Dorothy remembered the song in episode 20 was because her father was a foriegner. But Dorothy was built recently when Dr. Wayneright recovered his lost memories and implanted them in Dorothy. )

Egad! That makes a whole lot of sense!

::head explodes::

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Originally posted by Sixfortyfive Also, everything that we as human beings "know" results from chemical reactions in the brain.

Are you saying that even our personalities are chemicals? That's not true. My genes are just molecules, they're not me.

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Originally posted by Sixfortyfive Everything that we learn results from observations weighed against pre-conceived notions that we've developed for ourselves in the past.

Where do the "preconcieved notions" come from? You have to start with a blank slate somwehere. Someone could easily program Dorothy: "When in this do this else this" or something similar.
My point is Dorothy can be reduced to binary in the end, because she is a machine, but a human can't be reduced to binary, not because they are more complex (emotions, etc), but because matter is not all there is concerning human beings.

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Originally posted by Zola As a programmer, I can tell you that to try to code every conceivable situation a robot might run into is impossible.

Have you heard of the Dreamcast game called Seaman? It's amazing. A little fish guy interacts with you and talks and gets grumpy or sad or happy based on how you treat him. He can even recognize your voice.
There is a limit to what this can do, but it serves as a useful comparison model.
Dorothy doesn't need to prepare for an infinite number of situations. She can be prepared for a large number, or practically, have a "general response" in her program which is built off of, but it would all be programmed in at the very end, because she was made by a human from silicone and metal.

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Originally posted by Zola She isn't at the mercy of her programs any more than you or I are at the mercy of our sex-drives.

I'm sorry, did you say you are a programmer? Have you ever encountered a program that didn't do what you told it? That's why computers are dumb, they only follow the orders given them, and they can't do anything else. Then how can you say this?
Dorothy is a robot. That has to mean something, else it was pointless for them to go on in the show about how she is an android. They should have said "She's a taciturn albino" or whatever.
Do you see what I'm saying? Why call her a robot if she's a human with steel skin? She has a program, and she follows it.

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Originally posted by Jr. Where do the "preconcieved notions" come from? You have to start with a blank slate somwehere. Someone could easily program Dorothy: "When in this do this else this" or something similar. My point is Dorothy can be reduced to binary in the end, because she is a machine, but a human can't be reduced to binary, not because they are more complex (emotions, etc), but because matter is not all there is concerning human beings.

There is really no great mystery insofar as how we operate. It is chemical, that is well-established. That our biological setup creates consciousness that is aware of itself is a wonderful thing, of course, but it seems almost as though we are moving into the realm of the metaphysical or religious at that point, and I am talking nuts and bolts and don't wish to take it any farther than that. Dorothy would have very simple programming, and the rest she would create herself, just like we do.

There is plenty of evidence for this, it's just that most of our stuff is learned in infancy and early childhood and we don't remember learning it. There are documented cases of children raised in very deprived situations and the result is very sad. They are never able to become fully human because they didn't learn the things they needed to at the right time.

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Originally posted by Jr. Have you heard of the Dreamcast game called Seaman? It's amazing. A little fish guy interacts with you and talks and gets grumpy or sad or happy based on how you treat him. He can even recognize your voice. There is a limit to what this can do, but it serves as a useful comparison model. Dorothy doesn't need to prepare for an infinite number of situations. She can be prepared for a large number, or practically, have a "general response" in her program which is built off of, but it would all be programmed in at the very end, because she was made by a human from silicone and metal.

That's comparing apples and oranges. Think about it! You have a robot that is actually self-aware! A robot that shows fear, and sadness, and early in the series, happiness. If I were going to sit down to try to make a self-aware robot, I wouldn't waste my time loading its memories with program after program. I would give it a feedback system and a few basic rules and let it go out and suck up every bit of experience it could.

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Originally posted by Jr. I'm sorry, did you say you are a programmer? Have you ever encountered a program that didn't do what you told it? That's why computers are dumb, they only follow the orders given them, and they can't do anything else. Then how can you say this?

My computer is not self aware, but Dorothy is. My computer doesn't have a feedback system. Dorothy does. My computer doesn't think. Dorothy does. Again, apples and oranges.

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Originally posted by Jr. Dorothy is a robot. That has to mean something, else it was pointless for them to go on in the show about how she is an android. They should have said "She's a taciturn albino" or whatever. Do you see what I'm saying? Why call her a robot if she's a human with steel skin? She has a program, and she follows it.

I think that's part of the appeal of the show. What is human? What is memory? What is love? We don't know!

Anyway, here's a link for you to check out, there's a lot of interesting stuff here about robot research. And we will just have to agree to disagree.

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Originally posted by Jr. matter is not all there is concerning human beings.

I can see validity in the rest of your post, but I have a fundamental disagreement with you here.

The human body is an incredibly elaborate system, but is still a system that is 100% physical. The entire body, from the skin to the muscles to the nerves to the brain, is composed of elements that react in only one specific way to any particular situation, and I'm a firm believer that there is no more to a human being than the physical body.

From this, you can probably infer that I'm a strong believer in fate as well. At any rate...

I'm not saying that R Dorothy wasn't programmed to respond to certain situations in certain fashions; she was clearly programmed to show emotion towards her creator/father. However, she can learn from and adapt to the rest of the world not entirely different from how any human being would.

Is it possible for an android to have genuine emotions? What is an emotion, exactly? Simply a state of thought that arises naturally and spontaneously rather than through one's own conscious effort? If so, I believe that R Dorothy is clearly capable of displaying them.

*sctraches head*

i was just thinking about the matrix and how morpheus said that everything you smell taste or touch is nothing more than electrical signals,certainly emotions seem to have the same effect. You could probably think of emotions as programs as well, of course as an infants everyone seems has a basic program, as you get older and have different expereinces, that programs grows to whatever happens to you. When you think about it, all humans have that same basic program, its just the experiences in our lives that makes us different.So certainly Dorothy could be implemented with a common denominator program and just go from there....

...what the hell did i just say?

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Originally posted by C.R Foxhound *sctraches head* i was just thinking about the matrix and how morpheus said that everything you smell taste or touch is nothing more than electrical signals,certainly emotions seem to have the same effect. You could probably think of emotions as programs as well, of course as an infants everyone seems has a basic program, as you get older and have different expereinces, that programs grows to whatever happens to you. When you think about it, all humans have that same basic program, its just the experiences in our lives that makes us different.So certainly Dorothy could be implemented with a common denominator program and just go from there.... ...what the hell did i just say?

That's EXACTLY it. We have basic biological needs and responses, and then we begin to learn. In a robot as complex as Dorothy, I am saying that it only makes sense that she was created exactly the same way.

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Originally posted by Zola There is really no great mystery insofar as how we operate. It is chemical, that is well-established.

No it isn't. For one thing, no one can figure out how the brain works. 97% of DNA was recently called "junk DNA" because no one can figure out what it does. This is changing. Anyway, I'm now going to stay away from commentary on stuff that has nothing to do with the show.

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Originally posted by Zola That's comparing apples and oranges. Think about it! You have a robot that is actually self-aware!

This is my point. It would be easy to have a program that says "You are self aware". And how would she know the difference? She may only be sentient because someone told her she is. The things you describe- fear, happiness, sadness- those are things that can be programmed. It is not apples and oranges. Both are computers.

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Originally posted by Sixfortyfive The human body is an incredibly elaborate system, but is still a system that is 100% physical...and I'm a firm believer that there is no more to a human being than the physical body.

If someone loves someone, then that's just chemicals in their brain. Therefore, one can add or remove chemicals to make one hate that person they previously loved.
That makes one's affections seem kind of silly, doesn't it? So why "feel" strongly about anything? It is all chasing the wind.
OK. I won't go off topic anymore. I mean it this time.

I have never said Dorothy was incapable of displaying emotion. What I have said is that her emotion is not genuine since it's just a bunch of 1s and 0s telling her what to do. Of course, if there's no distinction between that and humans, then I'm wrong, but if there is, then I'm right. Well, no, I could still be wrong even then, but I suppose we shouldn't get to worked up over the hard to explain things, huh? After all, there is (hopefully) no one on these boards who dislikes the show.
There's also the off chance that her emotions are not part of a program, and really are special, and we are just supposed to accept it, like any unexplained event or what have you.

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Originally posted by Jr. quote: Originally posted by Sixfortyfive Also, everything that we as human beings "know" results from chemical reactions in the brain. Are you saying that even our personalities are chemicals? That's not true. My genes are just molecules, they're not me.

Actually, Jr. thats the truth. Every sensation - phsyical, emotional, whatever - you feel, originates from a chemical reaction in your brain. These reactions are (sometimes) specific to you, depending on your personality, which is in turn determined by factors such as heredity, social and cultural standards, learned and observed behaviour, etc etc.

Your genes are more than just molecules and your hair/eye colour. They are, in fact, YOU.

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Originally posted by Jr. I have never said Dorothy was incapable of displaying emotion. What I have said is that her emotion is not genuine since it's just a bunch of 1s and 0s telling her what to do. Of course, if there's no distinction between that and humans, then I'm wrong, but if there is, then I'm right. Well, no, I could still be wrong even then, but I suppose we shouldn't get to worked up over the hard to explain things, huh? After all, there is (hopefully) no one on these boards who dislikes the show.

Couldn't there be a possibility that Dorothy's creation is much more than the normal android and that she is capable of all of the emotions that we would not normally think that she would be capable of. I mean just remember the fact that in Daimon Seed she already thought enough of Roger to go and buy him a tie... from the funeral section. In my opinion there is far more to Dorothy than a normal android and there is no part of me that thinks that in some way her and Roger could fall in love. Sure it would be kinda strange and they'd have to adopt and all but I think she's up to it. Besides I belive Instro also had this genuine love for the piano and his father. He didn't seem to be rule by some predetermined destiny that was programmed into his circuits. All that he listened to other than his "heart" was that loser Guixang... it's good that he got squished... reallllllly good!

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Originally posted by R.Dorothy Waynewright Actually, Jr. thats the truth. Every sensation - phsyical, emotional, whatever - you feel, originates from a chemical reaction in your brain.

No. This has never been proven, and is a statement of philosophy, not science. It could just as easily be said your emotions cause the chemical reactions.

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Originally posted by R.Dorothy Waynewright Your genes are more than just molecules and your hair/eye colour. They are, in fact, YOU.

Then why do identical twins, who come from one fertilized egg (which is still not understood as far as I know), have completely different personalities? They should be identical in personalities also, since they are two people from the exact same physical material, yet they aren't.

they tend to be similar, I heard about twins who were seperated at birth who met up later and liked the same foods, movies, etc.