Angel. ***HUGE SPOILERS***

Wow all these diferent theories..they all sound so valid.
I was looking at the kodanclub website and the motto they have for roger is

"Thou who is without sin, shall make a cast in God's name"
I found that to be so unusual, because to have no sin, you
would have to be perfect.
Big O an the other Megadeuses, are sinless. And becasue they are without sin, they cannot be ruled by someone who has sinned. To quote me earlier "So maybe Alex was cast out or as the BIG put it "Cast in the name of GOD , YE NOT" because of something he did in the past that made him no longer Goldly in the eyes of a Big. No longer worthy of being a dominus. "
And that is why roger is allowed to by Big O's dominus, because roger isn't the real roger smith, he's a copy, he is without sin, because he isn't real. He dosen't have a past.
In a nutshell, no human is without sin. And it isn't until death that our sins are washed away, So the tomato theory makes sense, Because if the real roger smith is dead, then this "tomato" won't have his sins. To quote the bible...
"For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. "

Or I could be going nowhere with this theory.....

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Originally posted by Byranx I had thought the Behemoth to be that yellow robot like machine that Big O heaves up in the air in the fourth of Megadeus' clips for War of Paradigm City. Something underground that would have been a last attempt of the foreigners to raise hell over Paradigm City...thus the signal she sent out during Twisted Memories

Yeah, I know that the yellow Megadeus in Act 25 is the Behemoth. It even says so in the official guidebook. I'm suggesting a double-meaning. (Hey, there was "R-D" before...)

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Originally posted by R Trusedale Black and white stripes! I never noticed that before. Who is it that wears black and white stripes now? spoiler (highlight to read): Alan Gabriel

Maybe...

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Alan is Mummyman's son?

ok...I'm lost. It's official...I'm lost
What the hell... I'm kinda not really good at figuring this stuff out

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We seem to be making so many ...err...well... :-/ Damn I'm getting really confused >_< OK So far I've seen people say that the characters might become megadeuses (Angel -> Big Venus ... Vera -> Behemouth) But I DON'T GET IT!!! How?!?! AND WHY!? It's freaking me out here... We have references to Amadeus...where did that come from And we have a reference to some other things that don't seem to fit rationally...

Can we get something straight here If we are going to speak metaphorically PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'm not good at trying to figure out what isn't really meant ~~;;;

Can we just get back to the original topic please??

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Angel BECOMING or actually being Big Venus seems to be SCIENTIFICALLY and above all IMPOSSIBLE O_O;;; Metaphorically it doesn't add up either You see...Angel NEVER EVER had any memories of Big Venus (as some have stated somewhere) and she never even KNEW about Big Venus...how could she then be the pilot?!?!?! This isn't making sense I could understand that these may be thought about from the subject of what Angel's scars are...and even why she is the only one who get's to remember the loop in the next loop...but it doesn't work out. In Act26 AND Act25 Angel is clearly to next "Alex Rosewater" of sorts from Paradigm City. (Leading the city from the chaos of the last loop into the "new age")

Unless someone can sum up EVERYTHING that we have guessed/"proved"/disproved/whatever I still believe in what I said from the begining...

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Angel isn't BIG VENUS...isn't the PILOT of it...doesn't know anything about the megadeus.

not necessarily a spoiler but...

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Here's an idea, maybe not a great one, but an idea nonetheless. Maybe Schwarzwald was the Leviathan. "How?" you say. "Isn't he the dominus of Big Duo!" Yes, my theory contradicts that completely but after watching Leviathan again and hearing this stuff about Vera being Behemoth, at the end of the episode Roger and Angel clearly say that the Leviathan may have been ol' Schwarzy. It makes sense, too. Didn't Vera die, then become the Behemoth? Guess the same goes for the Black Forest.

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Originally posted by Sixfortyfive Not bad Trusedale, but there are *heavy* Christain themes present in this show. Need I refer you to Heaven's Day? Or Day of the Advent? Or Angel? "Megadeus" and "Dominus" are mispronounced because they're using Japanese phonetics instead of Latin.

Well perhaps you can point me to a Japanese phonetics link? Who says Dominus is mispronounced? And how did the writers get "Amadeus" right, but "megadeus" wrong?

I didn't mean to imply that there are no Christian references in any episode. Just that the name megadeuce/megadeus makes less sense as a god reference, and was not intended as one.

The prefix mega means big, right? Whats the difference between God and Big God? If we're actually talking about the God of the bible, what sense does it make to talk about something big(ger) than God? And how can multiple "deuces" all be Gods? What happened to monotheism?
The Heaven's Day episode illustrates my point. The people of Paradigm literally do not remember Christ or Christmas. They celebrate and sing in the ruined church without remembering the reason why. Obviously you can't get too involved in Christian themes if your characters can't remember the Name. The writers did this intentionally.
The one exception seems to be Alex Rosewater, who knows what Heavens Day was originally for. He also knows some text from Revelations. He keeps this knowledge to himself for some reason, knowing him, he probably thinks this secret gives him more power.
Also in that episode, there is a recurring picture that is an excellent piece of misdirection. It shows a Christmas tree, a church, and a brightly glowing sun. Guess which of those symbols turn out to be most important to the people of Paradigm?

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The Sun

The show has tons more references to the theme of robot/human merging than to Christianity. Merging appears in every episode and involves practically all the major characters. Megadeuce was meant to refer to the major theme. The only problem is that it wasn't spelled right.
Once there was a Ptolemiac theory of the solar system. Later, most people adopted the Copernican theory, because it replaced mystery with science,and it explained more things.

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Originally posted by R. Umino quote: Originally posted by R Trusedale Black and white stripes! I never noticed that before. Who is it that wears black and white stripes now? spoiler (highlight to read): Alan Gabriel Maybe... spoiler (highlight to read): Alan is Mummyman's son?

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Alan IS Schwartzwald, or at least has enough of his memories. That is why he thinks he can pilot Big Duo. Too bad he turned too evil to pass Duo's guilty/not guilty check.

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Originally posted by R Trusedale Alan IS Schwartzwald, or at least has enough of his memories. That is why he thinks he can pilot Big Duo. Too bad he turned too evil to pass Duo's guilty/not guilty check.

Eh, I disagree.

The two are totally different people, both physically and mentally. Their voices are different, their mannerisms, their motivations... Would Schwarzwald ever 'sell out' to Alex Rosewater? If I recall, he already had that chance, and we all know what he did to that check.

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Originally posted by Sixfortyfive Now here's a new question: Why is R Dorothy the key?

I tried to get my mind around that one here. http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thre...&sid=#post43007

"A bird whose wings have been plucked will shed its feathers and turn into the beast it was before it evolved into a bird."

Sounds pretty cyclical to me,

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and points to Paradigm's time loop.

Bird --> Bird's wings are plucked --> Bird sheds its feathers --> Bird turns into a beast --> Beast evolves into the Bird --> Bird's wings are plucked, etc.

Vera says the scars are a sign that "you're a reincarnation of a little angel." Where Angel = Bird: In "Fallen" Angel's present state, her wings are plucked and she has no feathers, which means she's in the form of the Beast. (Okay, there are all kinds of allusions to the Book of Revelations with "the Beast" there, but I'm not even gonna go there right now.)

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When she transforms or "evolves" back into the bird, she becomes Big Venus? But what causes her to evolve? If she IS Big Venus (Bird), once the time loop is completed, she will become the "Fallen" Angel without wings again (Beast).

What I don't get: How does a bird shed its feathers AFTER its wings have been plucked, and how does this fit into the plot?

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The only thing I can understand in Japanese is Engrish , so could someone explain to me what Gordon Rosewater said in Act 25 about Angel's "tomatoness" or lack thereof? I agree with s-girl that Rosewater seemed to say that Angel was NOT a tomato, and whatever he told her, Angel appeared to not want to believe it. Vera also seemed shocked by what he said. There's a moment when both she and Roger look on, stunned. Gordon said something like "otonimo" and then "memory data". The "memory data" speech is what seemed to really upset Angel.

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I think that "TV room" in the final minutes is the a different reality than Paradigm City.

Yeah, where exactly is this?

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I haven't seen Act 26 yet, but I know Roger walks into some alternate universe in Act 25 when he merges with himself. And isn't that an editing room looking out over the stage where Roger, Vera, Angel, and Gordon Rosewater are? (There's a really good picture of that room right before Big O's fist shoots up from the ground.) It doesn't look like anyone's in it though. Oh snap! Maybe entering the alternate dimension is what begins Angel's evolution back into the Bird (Big Venus). Anything can happen in an alternate dimension , and she can be "edited" too.

*reads spoliers*

You know, these last three acts are gonna be bloody insane.

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Originally posted by Executor *reads spoliers* You know, these last three acts are gonna be bloody insane.

Just the last one, really. I blew a fuse about halfway through and kind of just blankly stared at my computer screen for the remaining 10 minutes.

"(Okay, there are all kinds of allusions to the Book of Revelations with "the Beast" there, but I'm not even gonna go there right now.)"

I decided to go there.

This probably has absolutely no validity towards the plot, but it's pretty interesting looking at the parallels between this passage from the Book of Revelations and the speculations in this thread:

(This is from the Greek Conordant Literal, so the translation's reading is a little choppy...)

"The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be ascending out of the submerged chaos, and to be going away into destruction. And marvel shall those dewlling on the earth, whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world, when they observe the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present." Rev. 17: 8

"The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be..." and "the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present" sounds a lot like what Vera told Chibi Angel.

"And marvel shall those dewlling on the earth, whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world" kinda goes with Sixfortyfive's idea that "the War of Paradigm City could very well be the Rapture, with God's son (Alex) saving only those who believe in him from the apocalypse."

Anyway, it probably won't hold water, but I found it kind of interesting.

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Originally posted by mAc Chaos The two are totally different people, both physically and mentally. Their voices are different, their mannerisms, their motivations... Would Schwarzwald ever 'sell out' to Alex Rosewater? If I recall, he already had that chance, and we all know what he did to that check.

Clearly Schwarzwald has never been motivated by mere money. He wanted to know the Truth. He disfigured and nearly killed himself probing the Archetype and adapting to Big Duo the first time.

The physical changes would be explained as a result of his transformation, and his desire not to be recognized. Whatever else he is, Schwarzwald is SMART, and could surely disguise hiimself so well that people can't recognize him. And people's motivations do change from time to time. As for Alan selling out to Rosewater, it's clear that he hates Rosewater and is just waiting for a chance to backstab him (or is that back-drill him? ) What would be Alan's reason to hate Rosewater? He wasn't still working for the Union when he almost killed Alex, he had already betrayed them. Either Alan is just plain psychotic, or he has a reason to hate Alex, and that would be either that Alex was blocking him from some goal, or Alex had hampered him in some way in the past. If in fact Alan was Schwarzwald in a previous life, then his homicidal rage toward Alex makes some sense.

When you boot up a megadeuce, it reads and copies your memories. This is necessary for the "not guilty" check. It also means each megadeuce incorporates the memories of previous pilots. The process is also 2-way. This means the pilot gets memories of the megadeuces previous pilots as well. In this memory sharing process the identities of the megadeuce and the Dominus converge, presumably this makes them a better coordinated fighting unit. So even if Alan was not Schwarzwald before he started, once he got into that seat, he got a good chunk of Schwarzwald's memories from Big Duo.

A question for the detectives among us. If Schwarzwald is truly dead, did they show his body? Who first said Schwarzwald was dead, and might they have any motivation to lie?

I'm sure no evidence I can offer will convince those who love the crispy mummy, and hate the skinny cyborg. Thats an emotional reaction. Point me to a scene where Schwarzwald appears onscreen at the same or later time than Alan Gabriel appeared in the show, and I'll be convinced.

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Originally posted by "Yeah, but..." "(Okay, there are all kinds of allusions to the Book of Revelations with "the Beast" there, but I'm not even gonna go there right now.)" I decided to go there. This probably has absolutely no validity towards the plot, but it's pretty interesting looking at the parallels between this passage from the Book of Revelations and the speculations in this thread: (This is from the Greek Conordant Literal, so the translation's reading is a little choppy...) "The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be ascending out of the submerged chaos, and to be going away into destruction. And marvel shall those dewlling on the earth, whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world, when they observe the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present." Rev. 17: 8 "The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be..." and "the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present" sounds a lot like what Vera told Chibi Angel. "And marvel shall those dewlling on the earth, whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world" kinda goes with Sixfortyfive's idea that "the War of Paradigm City could very well be the Rapture, with God's son (Alex) saving only those who believe in him from the apocalypse." Anyway, it probably won't hold water, but I found it kind of interesting.

No one can make literal sense out of the book of Revelations, so don't even try. The only two people in Paradigm who have any memory of the Book of Revelations are Alex Rosewater and Vera. And these two between them do most of the damage to the city and people of Paradigm, due to their fanaticism. These two people were not inspired to good works by their unique knowledge of religion. As far as I can Alex wants to literally become God, and Vera wants to blow everything up and bring on the Apocalypse.

Where did you get the idea that the Megadeus copies its users memories? It wasn't implied anywhere in the show that this happens.

Schwarzwald's body and frame are way too different from Alan's, for him to possible have changed into Alan. Alan is thin and tall, Schwarzwald is stocky.

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Originally posted by R Trusedale Point me to a scene where Schwarzwald appears onscreen at the same or later time than Alan Gabriel appeared in the show, and I'll be convinced.

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This happens RIGHT before Alan is consumed by Big Duo Inferno - Act 24 - The Big Fight. This could be taken 2 ways: Either Alan is seeing his reflection in the pilots seat window OR Shwarz is really a ghost telling Alan his A** is Grass

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Originally posted by Sixfortyfive quote: Originally posted by Executor *reads spoliers* You know, these last three acts are gonna be bloody insane. Just the last one, really. I blew a fuse about halfway through and kind of just blankly stared at my computer screen for the remaining 10 minutes.

Actually I've been sitting here replaying some of Megadeus' clips over and over trying to make lame attempts to catch enough of the Japanese so I can run off and translate it.

Literally, am losing sleep over it.

Which means at this rate, I should be in the perfect frame of mind for act 26. woohoo!

And to get back to the topic of Angel. Is the angel we saw in episode 14, "Roger the Wanderer" linked to the ANgel we see in current regular contiuity? Also, how does the Angel in red cape figure in in episode 13 "RD?"

I'm still puzzling over that. Those particular versions of Angel seemed to know a lot more of what was going on... which makes me suspicious of the current Angel having an identity crisis.

That wasn't Angel in the red cape in R.D. that was an evil Dorothy lookalike.

I don't really think the people turn into the megadeuces, but perhaps the megadeuces turn into the people (mentally)?

For sure, they seem to adapt to their pilots and even adopt part of their personality. Heck, they might have memories of previous pilots or at least their own memories of the pilots.

I'm sure Big O lets Roger pilot him either because he confuses Roger for the original Major Smith or simply because Roger reminds him of the Major. Maybe it's more a friendship than symbiotic relationship as you suggest. That's why Big O let Roger rescue Dorothy, it also believes Dorothy to be a friend. This also explains why it lets Norman repair it.

Big Duo, on the other hand, depends on whether Schwartwald was crazy before or after he started piloting it. I think Big Duo may have shown Schwartwald what drove him made. Perhap Duo also wishes to show the truth to the people of Paradigm?

This also explains why it rejects Gabriel. Duo has made a partnership with Schwartzwald and may want to continue his goal. Alan stands in the way of that goal.

Perhaps Gordon Rosewater was the original pilot of Big Fau and that's why it resembles Alan?