Is Big Venus REALLY Angel's Megadeus?

If you ever read the japanese fan liner (and I'm pretty sure somebody uploaded a copy of it at one point or another,) it says pretty clearly that the writers wanted angel to be the equivalent of Lucifer. Fallen angel. A very clear explanation of the marks on her back, what with all of the "bird that loses it's feathers" comments in the series. There's an eastern version of Christianity that believes the world will end when Lucifer accepts his role as administrator of the justice of God and repents, and I think, following Angel's development as a character, this is probably what the writers were alluding to. Angel is the director, not Dorothy. I know Dorothy is your favorite character, and she's cool, but making her into the director involves overlooking a bunch of facts.

Also, I've never been convinced that Roger is a robot. I guess it's possible, but since we see him bleed, I really think that scene in the last episode is strictly symbollic - there'll always be a Roger when the city needs one, which ties in with Roger's whole song and dance about accepting his "role" in episode 14. He isn't the first Roger Smith, and he won't be the last.

How can Angel as "Lucifer" possibly be the Director of Paradigm City? Even assuming this theory is correct...doesn't answer why it's Alex getting all the glory by trying to oust Roger with Big Fau. If anything...that scene in Act 26 should have shown us a previous incarnation of that battle with Angel as Big Fau duking it out with Roger...if we go with Nietzche's philosophical theory of the Eternal Recurrance. We don't get this...we simply see it's Alex getting merged with Big Fau.

If Angel is the one that answers the riddle of the Phoenix then you're going to have to explain why she's been left out in the cold in the thick of things in Paradigm. I'm not buying it. If the prophecy about the riddle was about Angel...then it should have been Angel that Roger had to duel to the death for control of Paradigm City's future. If that's the case you're suggesting...then how does it explain Alex getting this role? Where did he get this info from? Schwarzald? Dr. Timothy Wayneright? Vera Rondstat?

Sorry but in my opinion it doesn't work. If anything the riddle about Big Venus was simply a haiku poem referencing the fate of the city destined to repeat itself for eternity...UNLESS there was a change in the pattern that alters that future. Big Venus merging with Big O may have been the catalyst that altered that future...or it simply may have reset the entire scenario. In any case...what most people are forgetting here is that it was R.Dorothy who got Roger into that Control Room. it was R.Dorothy who saved Roger from certain death and it was R.Dorothy who doomed Big Fau when her memories refused to obey Alex's commands. So I'm almost positive it was Dorothy who issued the Paradigm City program reset...the clue at the end showing Angel looking at R.Dorothy was the key. R.Dorothy in that strange scene was taller than Angel...a clear symbol showing it's R.Dorothy who had been calling the shots all along.

Thank you Nine.

*puts on glove, slaps DorothyFan1*

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 How can Angel as "Lucifer" possibly be the Director of Paradigm City? Even assuming this theory is correct...doesn't answer why it's Alex getting all the glory by trying to oust Roger with Big Fau. If anything...that scene in Act 26 should have shown us a previous incarnation of that battle with Angel as Big Fau duking it out with Roger...if we go with Nietzche's philosophical theory of the Eternal Recurrance. We don't get this...we simply see it's Alex getting merged with Big Fau.

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Posted by that cool dude If you ever read the japanese fan liner (and I'm pretty sure somebody uploaded a copy of it at one point or another,) it says pretty clearly that the writers wanted angel to be the equivalent of Lucifer. Fallen angel. A very clear explanation of the marks on her back, what with all of the "bird that loses it's feathers" comments in the series. There's an eastern version of Christianity that believes the world will end when Lucifer accepts his role as administrator of the justice of God and repents, and I think, following Angel's development as a character, this is probably what the writers were alluding to. Angel is the director, not Dorothy. I know Dorothy is your favorite character, and she's cool, but making her into the director involves overlooking a bunch of facts.

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If Angel is the one that answers the riddle of the Phoenix then you're going to have to explain why she's been left out in the cold in the thick of things in Paradigm. I'm not buying it. If the prophecy about the riddle was about Angel...then it should have been Angel that Roger had to duel to the death for control of Paradigm City's future.

ANGEL FIGHTING ROGER HAPPENED IN THE MANGA.

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In any case...what most people are forgetting here is that it was R.Dorothy who got Roger into that Control Room.

There was, if you remember, no damn explanation why/how the hell they got in there in the first place.

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it was R.Dorothy who saved Roger from certain death and it was R.Dorothy who doomed Big Fau when her memories refused to obey Alex's commands.

No. Fau refused to obey Alex because he was (unworthy/incompatible/a little bitch).

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So I'm almost positive it was Dorothy who issued the Paradigm City program reset...the clue at the end showing Angel looking at R.Dorothy was the key. R.Dorothy in that strange scene was taller than Angel...a clear symbol showing it's R.Dorothy who had been calling the shots all along.

.....

No. That was just ugly. With bad perspective, but perspective nonetheless. I mean, it looked like mediocre fanart. There was no symbolism to be had from the wonky proportions there.

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ANGEL FIGHTING ROGER HAPPENED IN THE MANGA.

This is definitely news to me. I've never heard this before. Please explain. What Megadeus is Angel controlling if this was true? Venus? Fau? or Duo? Can you point me to a link showing this to be the case? And even if this is true...I still need info whether or not the people behind anima were aware of this or deliberately ignored this as a separate time line.

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 quote: ANGEL FIGHTING ROGER HAPPENED IN THE MANGA. This is definitely news to me. I've never heard this before. Please explain. What Megadeus is Angel controlling if this was true? Venus? Fau? or Duo? Can you point me to a link showing this to be the case? And even if this is true...I still need info whether or not the people behind anima were aware of this or deliberately ignored this as a separate time line.

Volume 6, Angel in Fau. Big O with triple-piston arms. The city drowns. But the battle is awesome.

Angel was a spy in the freakin manga... the sexy Russian spy who tried to destroy Paradigm's last hope in a giant robot while being sexy. The manga cost about $30 total... go get some. Sexyness.


Oh and yes the creators behind the manga purposefully tried to pull the anime's proverbial chain... DUDE! They were by the same people. They followed different story lines, but the Manga/Anime was well aware what was happening in the Anime/Manga. Either storyline is valid, there is no "well this one deviated from this...".

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 quote: ANGEL FIGHTING ROGER HAPPENED IN THE MANGA. This is definitely news to me. I've never heard this before. Please explain. What Megadeus is Angel controlling if this was true? Venus? Fau? or Duo? Can you point me to a link showing this to be the case?

Infer.

OMG. In the manga...Angel is Big Fau. I'm totally floored. This really up ends the applecart. I could tear my hair out. If someone out there would be so kind as to upload images from the manga for us poor Big O fans to see this would be outstanding. I've so got to see these images.

Big Fau with Angel as the Dominus! OMG. Why in freaking hell did they leave this part out in the anima?! Why did they bring in Alex for? This simply just doesn't make any sense. Seems to me the manga "got it". I'm sorry I didn't get the issue and I'm sorry whomever is behind the copyright to Big O won't release it so it can be picked up by someone who has a passion for it...hmmm...James Cameron likes Japanese manga? Check. James Cameron will produce and direct a Japanese live action version of the manga? Check. Answer to our problems...somebody please get James Cameron to see Act 26 or even send him the Big O DVD sets.

Just hearing this news about Angel as the Big Fau dominus is unbelievable. Totally changes how one views the series now. I still don't get why this was altered for the anima. It doesn't make any sense. Unless you're saying the manga was simply fleshed out episodes that weren't translated to live animation...then we've got issues to solve all over again.

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 OMG. In the manga...Angel is Big Fau. I'm totally floored. This really up ends the applecart. I could tear my hair out. If someone out there would be so kind as to upload images from the manga for us poor Big O fans to see this would be outstanding. I've so got to see these images. Big Fau with Angel as the Dominus! OMG. Why in freaking hell did they leave this part out in the anima?! Why did they bring in Alex for? This simply just doesn't make any sense. Seems to me the manga "got it". I'm sorry I didn't get the issue and I'm sorry whomever is behind the copyright to Big O won't release it so it can be picked up by someone who has a passion for it...hmmm...James Cameron likes Japanese manga? Check. James Cameron will produce and direct a Japanese live action version of the manga? Check. Answer to our problems...somebody please get James Cameron to see Act 26 or even send him the Big O DVD sets. Just hearing this news about Angel as the Big Fau dominus is unbelievable. Totally changes how one views the series now. I still don't get why this was altered for the anima. It doesn't make any sense. Unless you're saying the manga was simply fleshed out episodes that weren't translated to live animation...then we've got issues to solve all over again.

...Whatever the hell you're on, I want some before it becomes illegal.

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Originally posted by Mr. D ...Whatever the hell you're on, I want some before it becomes illegal.

Send me about 5 Kilos.... because that must be some good sh**.

You see...Paradigm City is not something you just dump all your stuff on, it's not a big truck. It's, it's a series of tubes...

After seeing that image for that cover...I was vindicated in one respect...Big Fau's color scheme is feminine. I was right about that when I posted those observations a long time ago. But seeing that cover totally blew me away. That's when I knew my hunch about Big Fau was correct. I didn't even suspect the manga had Angel as the villain/dominus for Fau. What a copout for the anima! If they had kept Volume 6 mythology intact for the series...I would have died and gone to heaven. Mind blowing.

Angel wearing the pink leather outfit and having ice cold blue/green eyes...the colors match Big Fau's armor. I wish someone could tell me why they changed the mythology. Just seeing the cover for this manga tells me somebody changed the story. Because I don't EVER remember seeing an episode with Roger saying..."Oh gee, I fought you Angel when you were dominus for Big Fau in our last Paradigm holoprogram. I wonder who gets Fau this time?"

Quick question...who won the duel? How did it end?

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Originally posted by The Stoned Guest Either storyline is valid, there is no "well this one deviated from this...".

What? Anything that occurs in one has absolutely no bearing on the other, since they mutually contradict each other on a regular basis.

And DorothyFan, the anime didn't alter the manga storyline. They came out at around the same time, and just happened to go in different directions as such things do.

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Originally posted by The Big Finale quote: Originally posted by The Stoned Guest Either storyline is valid, there is no "well this one deviated from this...". What? Anything that happens in one has absolutely no bearing on the other. Since they mutually contradict each other on a regular basis.

That's kinda what I meant to say...except I didn't.

The Manga and Anime have similar episodes (like Dorothy's introduction, Beck Victory Delux, Archetype) but they all had differences. There's no point where the Anime and Manga ran side-by-side and then split. That's kinda what I was gettin at.

I'm still waiting for an answer on my last question...who won the duel in the manga between Roger and Angel? I'd be curious to know what happened in this one. I've been trying to find out the title for this manga and the closest I've been able to find is "Lost Memory Part 1 and Part 2" Now that's an interesting title for the manga. If true...then it does suggest there was a time line alternate universe or possibly a fragment from a prior Paradigm City simulation.

Now all of this means that Gordon Rosewater either lied about Angel or simply didn't know who she was. This is why knowing what happened in the manga may prove so crucial. I really would love to hear an explanation about why this was left out.

BTW...Angel with ice cold blue green eyes was awesome. Now THAT'S the Angel I would have liked on the anime. To heck with Alex Rosewater. Making Angel the villain would have made Big O anime even better. I'm sorry TPTB decided otherwise. They missed a tremendous opportunity there.

Nevertheless it's still spine-tingling to see that my independent analysis of Big Fau's armor suggested its Dominus was female. I also believe in light of the new development...it STILL doesn't discount the possibility that in THAT timeline we see in the anime...that R.Dorothy was probably the true Dominus for Big Fau. Although I do remember someone posted a beautiful theory that R.Dorothy's colors matched Big Duo.

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Originally posted by Ollen70 There's an eastern version of Christianity that believes the world will end when Lucifer accepts his role as administrator of the justice of God and repents, and I think, following Angel's development as a character, this is probably what the writers were alluding to. Angel is the director, not Dorothy. I know Dorothy is your favorite character, and she's cool, but making her into the director involves overlooking a bunch of facts.

That's where this is looking like where's it headed, yeah. Although the little bit about Lucifer seems rather interesting and kind of fits into the scheme of things there.

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 Quick question...who won the duel? How did it end?

The battle was underwater and Fau gave O a lot of damage. Roger was able to rally back after seeing Dorothy on the bridge and defeated Fau. O destroyed Fau, ripped it to shreads but Angel got away and with Dorothy's memories on the CD. Also, in a brief drama sequence, Schwarzwald and Roger had a chat as well.

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 OMG. In the manga...Angel is Big Fau. I'm totally floored. This really up ends the applecart. I could tear my hair out. If someone out there would be so kind as to upload images from the manga for us poor Big O fans to see this would be outstanding. I've so got to see these images. Big Fau with Angel as the Dominus! OMG. Why in freaking hell did they leave this part out in the anima?! Why did they bring in Alex for? This simply just doesn't make any sense. Seems to me the manga "got it". I'm sorry I didn't get the issue and I'm sorry whomever is behind the copyright to Big O won't release it so it can be picked up by someone who has a passion for it...hmmm...James Cameron likes Japanese manga? Check. James Cameron will produce and direct a Japanese live action version of the manga? Check. Answer to our problems...somebody please get James Cameron to see Act 26 or even send him the Big O DVD sets. Just hearing this news about Angel as the Big Fau dominus is unbelievable. Totally changes how one views the series now. I still don't get why this was altered for the anima. It doesn't make any sense. Unless you're saying the manga was simply fleshed out episodes that weren't translated to live animation...then we've got issues to solve all over again.

I don't see how Angel piloting Big Fau in the MANGA has anything to do with Angel's role of Director of Paradigm City in the ANIME. Seriously, fill me in because I read all the volumes of the manga two years after I watched the anime (actually, that's the only volume I have of the series) and there's not that much of a correlation between the two as far as Angel as the Director, who pilots what megaduse and especially about Big Venus since its not you know, in the manga at all. Like Evan and Finale said, the manga and anime may have followed the same principles as far as the storyline and all-around scheme of Paradigm goes but for the most part, the two are stand-alone cases of each other and one has no bearing on another one whatsoever. And also, didn't the manga come out after the anime? Just asking because DF1 is trying to make it sound like the opposite, so yeah just wanted to get that cleared up.

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Originally posted by Mr. D Thank you Nine. *puts on glove, slaps DorothyFan1*

Sure thing, D. Sure thing.

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Originally posted by Mr. D quote: In any case...what most people are forgetting here is that it was R.Dorothy who got Roger into that Control Room. There was, if you remember, no damn explanation why/how the hell they got in there in the first place.

There's that and the fact that scene can be looked at has not to be taken literally... as with most of Act 26. I forget who (probably Uncle Tomato) but that scene could be looked at as being a parallel version of the negioations that Roger carries out with Angel. Except instead of being in the scene with the megaduses, they are in a control room (with a promotional poster of Big O in the background as well). There is no evidence whatsoever that Dorothy led anyone, including herself, to that place.

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Originally posted by Mr. D quote: So I'm almost positive it was Dorothy who issued the Paradigm City program reset...the clue at the end showing Angel looking at R.Dorothy was the key. R.Dorothy in that strange scene was taller than Angel...a clear symbol showing it's R.Dorothy who had been calling the shots all along. ..... No. That was just ugly. With bad perspective, but perspective nonetheless. I mean, it looked like mediocre fanart. There was no symbolism to be had from the wonky proportions there.

True about that last scene looking like crap on many levels, but weren't they looking at Roger as he drove by to do something for a job or another? I think there is some symbolism to be taken from there, although not really sure what. And I don't agree that the certain shot its a clue that everything is exactly back to normal just because Dorothy is there in her maid outfit and that Roger is going to rescue like he did in Act 1 at the same time. I don't know who came up with that one but I never agreed with it.

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 I'm sorry I didn't get the issue and I'm sorry whomever is behind the copyright to Big O won't release it so it can be picked up by someone who has a passion for it...hmmm...James Cameron likes Japanese manga? Check. James Cameron will produce and direct a Japanese live action version of the manga? Check. Answer to our problems...somebody please get James Cameron to see Act 26 or even send him the Big O DVD sets. Just hearing this news about Angel as the Big Fau dominus is unbelievable. Totally changes how one views the series now. I still don't get why this was altered for the anima. It doesn't make any sense. Unless you're saying the manga was simply fleshed out episodes that weren't translated to live animation...then we've got issues to solve all over again.

You and your James Cameron. Also, I don't think that Angel was really Fau's dominus. She had the same problems of controlling Fau that Alex Rosewater had in the anime. The way she used it, it was sort of just a means to an end to get Fau back to the Union, and even then she still had problems and difficulty with Fau. And besides, Big O ripped Fau a new one, so yeah. And still don't understand how knowing that Angel piloted Big Fau for a minute changes the perspection one has on the anime.

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 Nevertheless it's still spine-tingling to see that my independent analysis of Big Fau's armor suggested its Dominus was female. I also believe in light of the new development...it STILL doesn't discount the possibility that in THAT timeline we see in the anime...that R.Dorothy was probably the true Dominus for Big Fau. Although I do remember someone posted a beautiful theory that R.Dorothy's colors matched Big Duo.

...Um, what does it matter if Big Fau itself has a gender? Or that if its dominuse is a male or female in any regards? Alex Rosewater piloted Big Fau. Was he the true dominus of Big Fau? No, and there was lots of evidence to prove that (The Third Big Act, having to steal Dorothy's memories for it even power on, the hourglass turning read, etc.). And please, Dorothy has Big Duo's dominus? WTH? Duo had one true dominus and that was Schwarzwald, but unfortuntely for him he didn't know the complete ramifications of Duo until after he died and learned the truth of Paradigm City.

Besides, wasn't this whole thread centered around Venus anyway? I don't know if Venus was even suppose to have a dominus, no evidence is implied to suggest that it was and its only an assumption of Roger's that Angel is the dominus. Even though I think she's the closest one that may fit the bill.

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Now all of this means that Gordon Rosewater either lied about Angel or simply didn't know who she was. This is why knowing what happened in the manga may prove so crucial. I really would love to hear an explanation about why this was left out.

Why would Gordon Rosewater of all people lie, especially at the point in time that he came in contact with Angel in Act 25? Simply put, Gordon hired Roger to negoiate with "the one who directs this stage" since he thinks the citizens of Paradigm have no need for memories in the first place and that even some can change their given roles from time to time. Gordon didn't know who (or what) Angel was, hell Angel didn't know who Angel was until he said that she was a "memory" and that she had the power to either restore the memories or completely eradicate them of her own accord (she may have chosen the latter of the two options).

In relation to all the characters in The Big O (or than Schwarzwald at the end), Gordon was the only one that had some idea of what was up with the whole scheme of things. But like everyone else, including Angel who was reveal to be the damn director of the stage, he was left and didn't know the ultimate truth as well.

Hot damn. But like Finale said, FAN FICTION.

EDIT: Finale, sorry I fix it. Now calm down.
Peace.

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And also, didn't the manga come out after the anime? Just asking because DF1 is trying to make it sound like the opposite, so yeah just wanted to get that cleared up.

I don't know which one came out first, but the anime was most definitely in development first. Then when they got everything planned out and ready to go, the manga was started as a separate production.

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There's that and the fact that scene can be looked at has not to be taken literally... as with most of Act 26. I forget who (probably Uncle Tomato) but that scene could be looked at as being a parallel version of the negioations that Roger carries out with Angel. Except instead of being in the scene with the megaduses, they are in a control room (with a promotional poster of Big O in the background as well).

I agree. Heavily and in many ways which I don't feel like describing right now because that would be boring and it's late.

EDIT: One last thing. NO T IN SCHWARZWALD ARRRRRGGGHH

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Originally posted by Nine XXVI [QUOTE]The feminine of Dominus is Domina.

What?

You spoke of Angel as the Dominuse of Big Venus, I suppsoed trying to make a French feminine of Dominus. There might be something to that, given her 'Francphone' background, but inasmuch as Dominus is Latin, the feminine form is Domina.

While we are at it. the Plural of deus is dei (though technically, Big Venus would be a Megadea).

On to more substantative matters:
The entire show is an allegory, therefore the literal sense of the stroy is not of primary importance. But it does have a literal meaning, and a coherent story that mort be accepted as 'real' in terms of that narrative. Why do you keep insisting that episode 26, the very climax of that narrative, is somehow to be discounted as not 'litteral' how is it less litteral than anything else. What clue makes you think so?

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Originally posted by Malkhos quote: Originally posted by Nine XXVI [QUOTE]The feminine of Dominus is Domina. What? You spoke of Angel as the Dominuse of Big Venus, I suppsoed trying to make a French feminine of Dominus. There might be something to that, given her 'Francphone' background, but inasmuch as Dominus is Latin, the feminine form is Domina

Suggestion: Work on your English first. Cause I have no clue what you're saying.

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Originally posted by DorothyFan1 ... Why in freaking hell did they leave this part out in the anima?! Why did they bring in Alex for? ...

While we're on elementatry Latin insturuction... I see you use this spelling repatedly. Anima is the Latin word for something like the soul. Anime is the japanese word for cartoon.

Thanks on the Latin lessons. Although I might not be too far off if I'm referring to "soul" when I use anima because it sounds more sophisticated than using the same old "soul" word. Getting back to the thread...I think we can now dispense with the idea that Dominus although "masculine" is not really meant to be a clue to somehow pointing out that only males can be the pilots of the Megadeii. I got that word usage right, didn't I?

I forgot which episode shows this...but in a snippet there's a scene from the "Event" showing the Big Three working together...O, Fau and Duo. I really am wondering whether the constant reminders that both Alex, Angel can't really be considered the true Dominus of Big Fau means we still have a mystery...who is the true Dominus for Fau?

Since a Season 3 may never be forthcoming the answer to this one remains an unsolved mystery. I think Gordon Rosewater had the answer to this one because the one person who WASN'T in that room in Act 26 was R.Dorothy. Coincidence I'm sure...but I'm betting R.Dorothy had a destiny far greater than being a simple housemaid. The so called "love triangle" between Roger, Angel and R.Dorothy was masking something bigger...like...the identities of the Big Three.

Schwarzwald was the true Dominus of Big Duo but he dies. So who is the true Dominus who gets to take over Duo? My suspicion lies with Angel getting the honors. In the ending of "Enemy is Another Big" the decapitated body of Duo was reaching out to buidling in front of it...which was the Headquarters for Alex Rosewater...and Angel.

So this leaves us with the mystery of Big Fau once again. If we leave out Alex and Angel...and alluding to the symbolism of the Big Three working "together" as in land, air and water...then I'm still pointing my analysis towards R.Dorothy. She has what it takes to be a Dominus. No questions asked. I mean, ask yourself how she was able to briefly pilot Big O and gets away with it when in order to do this the pilot has to pass the test of authenticity with the obligatory "Cast in the name of God...I find thee not guilty" startup screen.

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Originally posted by The Stoned Guest quote: Originally posted by Malkhos quote: Originally posted by Nine XXVI [QUOTE]The feminine of Dominus is Domina. What? You spoke of Angel as the Dominuse of Big Venus, I suppsoed trying to make a French feminine of Dominus. There might be something to that, given her 'Francphone' background, but inasmuch as Dominus is Latin, the feminine form is Domina Suggestion: Work on your English first. Cause I have no clue what you're saying.

Then let me explain. In French and Latin, nouns have gender, and that gender governs what the end of the word will look like. In the case of nouns that describe people by what they do or what they are, the word can ahve either a masculine or a feminine ending, depending on the biological gender of the person involved. So Angel could not be a dominus (master), she would have to be a domina (mistress). Dominuse, while not a real French word, looked to me like an effort to make a feminine form of Dominus using French grammar. But Dominus is Latin, not French.