North Korea (maybe) conducts first Nuclear Test

Generalissimo D 10-09-2006 06:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by RoseRose
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. D
quote:
Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix
If we're all still around by then, I'll let you know by the end of my semester (and my intro to IR class) what ought be done about a (potentially) irrational leader sitting on a small stockpile of nuclear missiles that, at best, threaten peripheral U.S. interests in East Asia (Japan and South Korea, most specifically).

That is to say, I think we can all uncomfortably relax, because the North Koreans aren't nuking the United States anytime soon. The Soviets never did, and while I suppose they had much more to lose (going from bipolar power/leading challenger to hegemonic power to nothing), they had nothing more to gain (world annihilation does no one any good, after all), so...


I don't think the Soviets ever had anyone with an ugly napoleon complex near the button.

Stalin. He was a HUGE egomaniac. No, no specific sources... it's amazing what ends up in your head when you're a history major.

But, yeah... And the U.S. and the Soviets had some REALLY close calls at times.


Stalin was apesh**, not batsh**.

Because we can all see apeshit coming.
088nd 10-09-2006 07:06 PM
One question: Why does this thread have more posts than if you ride rims?
Sharpshooter005 10-09-2006 07:23 PM
North Korea's putting hydraulics on all future missiles is why.
088nd 10-09-2006 07:35 PM


Granted, it's an Iranian prototype, but it still conveys the basic idea.
Sharpshooter005 10-09-2006 07:38 PM
Thread gets a 10 for that alone
The Fallen Phoenix 10-09-2006 08:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. D
I don't think the Soviets ever had anyone with an ugly napoleon complex near the button.


The North Koreans (and their leaders) are really less irrational than people (read: the Bush Administration) make them out to be, at least in the realm of International Politics. Just because a country has nuclear weapons does not mean it is going to use them.

People were expecting nuclear holocaust when India and Pakistan--two countires with legitimate (...as legitimate as can be, at least) reasons to use their nuclear weapons developed them. Last I checked, they still haven't been used...
X Prime 10-09-2006 09:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. D
I don't think the Soviets ever had anyone with an ugly napoleon complex near the button.


The North Koreans (and their leaders) are really less irrational than people (read: the Bush Administration) make them out to be . . .


One less than a rating of 1 million is still a large number, hehehe.
David Ryder 10-09-2006 09:21 PM
quote:
Last I checked, they still haven't been used...


True, but they are a good way to scare the crap out of people it seems.
Generalissimo D 10-09-2006 09:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 088nd


Granted, it's an Iranian prototype, but it still conveys the basic idea.


That's vaguely obscene.
Sharpshooter005 10-09-2006 09:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix
People were expecting nuclear holocaust when India and Pakistan--two countires with legitimate (...as legitimate as can be, at least) reasons to use their nuclear weapons developed them. Last I checked, they still haven't been used...


It's really more a bargaining chip. If (and it's still an if, I'm not sure if theres any other confirmations aside from Pyongyang going "WE SO HAVE THE BOMB NOW" that it was even a nuke and not a rather large conventional bomb in a bunker, or just a very small yield bomb) they have one they'll just be using it to achieve some sort of legitimacy probably.

I guess some sort of arms race between various nations in that region wouldn't be too far out of the question though

edit: Oh right, tremors were felt following the blast. A large quantity of conventional munitions could probably produce that.
The Fallen Phoenix 10-09-2006 10:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpshooter005
I guess some sort of arms race between various nations in that region wouldn't be too far out of the question though


Maybe, maybe not. There's a much greater chance of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East if (once) Tehran aquires nuclear weaponry.

Personally, I agree with the opinion that there's a greater chance of a nuclear arms race in east Asia if Taiwan, not North Korea, aquires nuclear weapons. As I mentioned before, North Korea has little to gain by using (or even threatening) any of the neighboring powers with nuclear weapons. In fact, North Korea is operating just as an encircled (and threatened) power would in a hostile environment, just as Germany did before the two World Wars and the Soviet Union did following the second: it is trying to guarentee (as best as it can) security from other powers in a multipolar region, and it believes the best way to do that is to have nuclear weapons. North Korea is not acting the way an aggressive (or offensive-realist) power would, at least not in my estimation, although granted I'm no expert and I am relying more on presumption than hard fact.

China, on the other hand, could very well act aggressively if Taiwan were to aquire nuclear weapons, and an aggressive China is far more threatening to the rest of the region than a passive-aggressive North Korea. As such, that would be more likely (I think) to trigger an arms race in the region.

As of the current moment, however, despite North Korea's insecurities, east Asia seems (to me) to be rather stable, and so I cannot forsee a nuclear arms race occuring unless the other powers overreact and get too much involved in the security dilemma.
RoseRose 10-10-2006 09:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpshooter005
I guess some sort of arms race between various nations in that region wouldn't be too far out of the question though


Maybe, maybe not. There's a much greater chance of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East if (once) Tehran aquires nuclear weaponry.

Personally, I agree with the opinion that there's a greater chance of a nuclear arms race in east Asia if Taiwan, not North Korea, aquires nuclear weapons. As I mentioned before, North Korea has little to gain by using (or even threatening) any of the neighboring powers with nuclear weapons. In fact, North Korea is operating just as an encircled (and threatened) power would in a hostile environment, just as Germany did before the two World Wars and the Soviet Union did following the second: it is trying to guarentee (as best as it can) security from other powers in a multipolar region, and it believes the best way to do that is to have nuclear weapons. North Korea is not acting the way an aggressive (or offensive-realist) power would, at least not in my estimation, although granted I'm no expert and I am relying more on presumption than hard fact.

China, on the other hand, could very well act aggressively if Taiwan were to aquire nuclear weapons, and an aggressive China is far more threatening to the rest of the region than a passive-aggressive North Korea. As such, that would be more likely (I think) to trigger an arms race in the region.

As of the current moment, however, despite North Korea's insecurities, east Asia seems (to me) to be rather stable, and so I cannot forsee a nuclear arms race occuring unless the other powers overreact and get too much involved in the security dilemma.

Thinking about your assesment, it seems very realistic. I like your analysis, and after a term of international pollitics at the college level, plus being a history major, so with a good hunk of history knowledge behind me, it seems rather accurate. I suppose the only place to question is in the sanity of the leaders of N. Korea, which we really can't know... and Stalin wasn't all that sane, anyway. Lack of sanity doesn't equal use of nuclear bombs.

Although with Tehran and Israel staring at each other with nukes, that's a scary thought... Yeah, more scary than N. Korea with the nukes. Israel has never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty, and is considered by most to have nukes. Yeah... if Tehran gets the bomb, I'll start getting REALLY scared.... yet another nuclear stalemate.
David Ryder 10-10-2006 07:13 PM
Well according to the AP, Japan said that North Korea, has tested another Nuke, although South Korea and the US haven't confirmed anything yet.
Generalissimo D 10-10-2006 08:44 PM
I just realized this thread would be more appropriately titled "NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED."

Because if this is right, a single South Korean could potentially take over the East.
X Prime 10-10-2006 10:08 PM
Starcraft nukes have wussy range.
The Fallen Phoenix 10-12-2006 01:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by RoseRose
Thinking about your assesment, it seems very realistic. I like your analysis, and after a term of international pollitics at the college level, plus being a history major, so with a good hunk of history knowledge behind me, it seems rather accurate. I suppose the only place to question is in the sanity of the leaders of N. Korea, which we really can't know... and Stalin wasn't all that sane, anyway. Lack of sanity doesn't equal use of nuclear bombs.


Yes, it is a structural realist analysis, and I chose that largely because I think that's the way the North Koreans would defend (or rationalize) their justification for nuclear weapons. I spoke to my international politics professor the other day, and we discussed how the other powers in the region (namely, South Korea, China, and Japan) viewed North Korea's efforts to obtain nuclear weapons, and he mentioned that the other powers likely (indeed,) do not share this perspective, but see North Korea as an aggressor that would like to use nuclear weapons. Ergo, the possibility for added instability, an arms race, and invocation of the security dilemma is very much possible.

...still, it just does not make any real sense for North Korea to use (or even sell) her nuclear weapons. First, nuclear weapons are rather expensive--it is unlikely that North Korea could recoup the cost in making the weapons if she sold them. That's not even mentioning that, if North Korea were to sell her nuclear weapons (however many she may have, and some estimate half a dozen at max) to a state or non-state (terrorist?) actor for actual use, it is likely that the United States and her allies will know exactly where those nukes came from, so North Korea still risks retaliation even she herself itself does not actively launch any. Second, as I just said, the cost of retaliation is too high. So North Korea nukes South Korea, or Japan, or absolute worst-case scenario (in regards peculiar American interests), the North American west coast. Then what? At best, a couple million dead, and a very pissed off, thouroughly thermonuclear United States that would have the capability (and the interest) to revisit on North Korea that horror several times over. And who would stop the United States from doing that, really? China lacks both a blue water navy and the resources to seriously deter the United States (having little more effective reach than North Korea, really: China cannot even exert her power over a small island some few miles off her coastline). I doubt Russia would be eager to get involved in a nuclear (or thermonuclear) crossfire--assuming she even knows where her nukes are, since it would be rather difficult to get involved in one if she did not know where they were.

That is to say, at the end of the day, I could care less whether North Korea has gone nuclear, or not. I worry far more about Tehran aquiring nukes (again, the potential for added instability in an area that is already far too volatile for comfort is horrificly great), and the fact that Russia doesn't seem to know where some of her nuclear weapons are (which is the most likely scenario for a non-state (non-institutional) actor to aquire nuclear weapons, in my opinion).
David Ryder 10-12-2006 03:07 AM
Well looks like D was right....Japan is the first it seems.

North Korea talks smack.

Source: Yahoo News
Chitter-Box-Kat 10-12-2006 05:09 AM
Hey guys! I'm back from the dead! Big Grin And this is the first thing I see.

I heard about this, and I got one word: CRAPOLLA. The war, the Foely Scandal, Bush, and now this sh*t? WWIII isn't looking like such a distant dream anymore. What a perfect time to be alive. When the world is going to hell. Dead

I do not see this ending well. AT. ALL.

And what is it with people these days and neuclear weapons? They're expensive, have disasterous after-effects, and you can only justifuy using them in extreme situations. And the world will still hate you to some degree for using them anyway. Why do people insist of on making these things?
Generalissimo D 10-12-2006 06:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Chitter-Box-Kat
Hey guys! I'm back from the dead! Big Grin And this is the first thing I see.

I heard about this, and I got one word: CRAPOLLA. The war, the Foely Scandal, Bush, and now this sh*t? WWIII isn't looking like such a distant dream anymore. What a perfect time to be alive. When the world is going to hell. Dead

I do not see this ending well. AT. ALL.

And what is it with people these days and neuclear weapons? They're expensive, have disasterous after-effects, and you can only justifuy using them in extreme situations. And the world will still hate you to some degree for using them anyway. Why do people insist of on making these things?


But we don't have the powered armor yet.

We can't possibly start WWIII without it.


INCONCIEVABLE.
Travis Bickle 10-12-2006 08:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Chitter-Box-Kat
Hey guys! I'm back from the dead! Big Grin And this is the first thing I see.

I heard about this, and I got one word: CRAPOLLA. The war, the Foely Scandal, Bush, and now this sh*t? WWIII isn't looking like such a distant dream anymore. What a perfect time to be alive. When the world is going to hell. Dead

I do not see this ending well. AT. ALL.

And what is it with people these days and neuclear weapons? They're expensive, have disasterous after-effects, and you can only justifuy using them in extreme situations. And the world will still hate you to some degree for using them anyway. Why do people insist of on making these things?


Why you don't have your own weekly segment on 60 Minutes confuses me.

North Korea has been claiming to have nuclear weapons for the past X amount of years, and everyone pretty much believed them but didn't really care. Them having proof didn't come as much of a shock to anyone or changed their opinions much on how/when the world will end.

The Foley Scandal is no big deal. Priests do it every day. They just get their mention about 25 minutes into the 10 o'clock news, and we move on. This was blown out of proportion, and not really that big a deal. How you think it will bring the end of the world really makes me think just what kind of mindset you're really in.