Truth thoery.

Tsukaggin 08-21-2006 05:53 PM
No, because she's aware they aren't hers. She is a machine. so first of all, we have to discard human reasoning as far as what she can do. She can, most likely get rid of them if she wishes. It's all hard drives and programs. Nothing more. She was not programmed to think she was the human Dorothy, merely to act like her, as is clear. The lack of emotion she normally displays is inhuman. If you think there's a remote chance that Human Dorothy acted that monotone around others, I would like the phone numbers of some real life examples, and their psyche profiles.

It's clear that Human Dorothy's memories do not rule her as if they where hers. Tell me. If, some how, I managed to let you observe my memories, from my perspective, in a theater, or on a TV, would they rule you? Probably not. And that seems to be the case with Dorothy. She shows no signs of being ruled by human Dorothy's memories from episode 1 on.

-Tsukaggin
OpVines 08-21-2006 06:37 PM
She is a machine. She consists of hard drives and programs. And part of that programming was for her to help mimic the real Dorothy. The memories were there to help her be closer to the real thing. As you said directly yourself, "She was not programmed to think she was the human Dorothy, merely to act like her, as is clear." I'd also like to note that I never said R. Dorothy thought she was the authentic human being, I'm just saying that her knowing her memories aren't real would hardly change her programming.

There's a difference with the metaphor you used and the situation with Dorothy. I can watch your memories on a theater, but I am not programmed to incorporate them into my being. Dorothy is. You guys seem to belittle the effects of her memories. If they were so replaceable and unimportant then why would she have them in the first place?
Tsukaggin 08-21-2006 06:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OpVines
If they were so replaceable and unimportant then why would she have them in the first place?


To help her mimic the human girl for her "father". They, in effect, allow her to get in to character. They don't dictate her reactions when she isn't around her "father". Usually, Logic does. As the story progresses, her memories since episode one begin taking the place of cold logic.
The Ghost of Ember 08-21-2006 07:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OpVines
So you're saying R. Dorothy developed her memories and individualism within the first few minutes she meets Roger, even though her implanted memories had a span of about 18 years? She develops her own memories throughout the show while she spends time with Roger. 18 years of memories that were hard-coded into you don't just disappear because you meet someone for a few minutes.


No. First of all R. Dorothy was activated for an indeterminate period of time before meeting Roger, it wasn't a crux that caused her to suddenly snap into a new personality. I never implied that. I implied that the only time that we see her ruled by the memories is when she interacts with her 'father', but even there I'm not certain, those might even merely be preprogrammed responses.

Furthermore, it’s implied that she doesn’t even have full access to the real Dorothy’s memories, in both act eight, in which she can’t identify whether a tune belongs to her memories or the real Dorothy, and in act 23, where she states quite simply:

“They want the memories inside me, the memories that I am not aware of.

quote:
Originally posted by OpVines
In all honesty, we haven't seen the real Dorothy's behavior so it would be farfetched to debate whether or not R. Dorothy acts like her. She acts differently around her father, but who's to say that the real Dorothy didn't act differently around other people too.


Act 14, during the brief period we see human Dorothy she acts almost exactly the same. Just as fluid and a bit shy- and, here's the kicker: She even laughs during both appearances. R. Dorothy on the other hand never laughs, hell, she barely smiles.

Arguably this is Rogers hallucination and therefore it is invalid, but the Roger the Wanderer 'world' does show up in the montage in the end when Roger is drowning, where other aspects of paradigm city are shown off with equal validity.

Also: So the real Dorothy must have insisted she had no emotions when was around anybody but her father. Right?

quote:
Originally posted by OpVines
However, I believe it's even more farfetched that someone redefine everything about themselves in such a short period of time, especially when they are an android.

And isn't it the human ability to adapt and change so well that makes them able to survive as long as they have? I believe even R. Dorothy's change stem from the memories of her old self.


There is no argument that R. Dorothy's personality does not grow by leaps and bound throughout the series, but I feel this is proof to the contrary of what you are saying. Most people have much of there personality pretty well defined by the time they leave there teenage years. There's still a lot of growth to be had, but as you said yourself, such drastic measures are not going to occur over such a short period of time.

Compare this to Dorothy however, she shows little to no grief over Waynerights death (seriously, if she was ruled by the real Dorothy's memories, she would be sad or SOMETHING. It's her father for Christ sakes), has sudden personality growth which is more in line with somebody who has little to no experience with life rather than someone who has a full eighteen years experience (implanted or otherwise) and is generally a blank slate regarding more than a few things.

quote:
Originally posted by OpVinesYou guys seem to belittle the effects of her memories. If they were so replaceable and unimportant then why would she have them in the first place?


"Fine, I'll give you my answer! PEOPLE ARE NOT RULED BY THEIR MEMORIES!"
-Roger Smith

Also: Her memory core is taken out. Forcibly removed from her 'skull'. All eighteen years of real Dorothy taken away in one shot. Yet she still finds a way to reactivate herself and retains her personality ("You really are such a louse, Roger Smith.") Clearly this proves her memories are the most important thing and she cannot exist without them. Oh, wait! It proves the exact opposite.
Tsukaggin 08-21-2006 08:34 PM
Thank you Mr. embers. Well put.
OpVines 08-21-2006 09:03 PM
I enjoy your bit of sarcasm in the end, but I never said that she couldn't exist without her human memories, because she can. I do wonder where I said or even implied that. All I said was that people seem to think that her memories don't have any influence on her.

Believe it or not, a good portion of the human population have problems showing emotion. I forget the term that's used, I'm pretty sure it's either sociopathy or psychopathy. Not everyone is capable of showing empathy or sympathy, even to their own parents, even if they died.

It's also possible that the real Dorothy had never encountered a death before, and as such, it would be logical that she doesn't know how to react.
cap1200am 09-03-2006 10:36 AM
I know that the discussion is a little beyond this now, but I was watching Epsidode 23 and didn't Beck alude to Alan as being "masked"? To me, that would mean that the "shadow" is a mask or part of a mask that Alan wears.
minespatch 09-03-2006 03:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cap1200am
I know that the discussion is a little beyond this now, but I was watching Epsidode 23 and didn't Beck alude to Alan as being "masked"? To me, that would mean that the "shadow" is a mask or part of a mask that Alan wears.


yes... he did say "why don't you take that mask of?!". if you see his head from the back you can see there is no blindfold.
R. Daniel Olk 01 09-19-2006 10:07 PM
I believe that Alan has neither eyes nor ears. I bet that long black blindfold either covers or is some sort of sensor-band, which can take in many kinds of information.

Isn't that so much creepier? It'd mean he has eyes in the back of his head and the side of his head... and ears on the front of his head, lol, etc.
minespatch 09-19-2006 10:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by R. Daniel Olk 01
I believe that Alan has neither eyes nor ears. I bet that long black blindfold either covers or is some sort of sensor-band, which can take in many kinds of information.

Isn't that so much creepier? It'd mean he has eyes in the back of his head and the side of his head... and ears on the front of his head, lol, etc.


Tongue sort of like Geordi La Forge?