Oh say can you 'sing'... in Spanish!?!! (Warning: Rant ahead)

evanASF27 04-28-2006 10:22 PM
*NOTE*: I write this as a rant and only about the song in question. I have no personal hatred of the Latino/Hispanic/Mexican (or even Canadian) community. These are only my views, there are no threats or anything of that kind...I ain't really that mean. I'm just very patriotic despite how uncool it is to love one's country. So please, try to respect my views and I'll try to respect everyone else's. Anime Smile Also to be fair, I've included an annonymous poll so people can cast votes without worrying about getting into a debate. I've included both XTR33Ms in the poll, two strong opinions, two mild-mannered opinions, and one "whatever". Happy



Normally I'm not one to seriously care about what controversies or "problems" arise from issues involving the increasing Mexican and Latino population in America....but this is just obsurd... and for once I think Bush's declaration on the matter is correct!

I'm searching for more articles on this matter because I want to try and find some sort of unbiased (meaning, not completely Left Wing, and not completely Right Wing) view on the matter...which I know is not likely to happen.

Basically, a British composer has rewritten the sacred "Stars Spangled Banner" into a Latin pop song called "Nuestro Himno" ("Our Anthem")
quote:
"We decided to show our solidarity with the undocumented migrants," says President Adam Kidron of UBO Records

Just a plee for more votes for the Democrats (which have a good chance anyway of getting more votes because of Bush's popularity, or lack thereof). I don't know about you people, but when I sing our national anthem I do it with pride and the way Francis Scott Key wrote it. It's one thing to translate a book into another language, it's another thing to tamper with a song which means so much to Americans by turning it into a Politically Correct pop tune just because people are not willing to at the very least know the freakin National Anthem's words.

I personally would have no problem if they wrote up a song to advocate their immigration policy like how Band-Aid wrote up "Do They Know It’s Christmas?"...but for the love of God/Buddah/Elvis don't screw with the National Anthem.

quote:
Would the French accept people singing the La Marseillaise in English as a sign of French patriotism? Of course not," said Mark Krikorian, head of the Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank that supports tighter immigration controls.

Now I've not heard about this guy (I'm never very up-to-date in the news), I've not head of his proposed policies (so I can't say if I'm for/against him), but that statement there I think is pretty accurate. At the Olympics you're expected to sing the National Anthems of the represented countries in their languages (should you choose to sing)... I didn't see/hear people singing all of the N.A.'s in Italian at Turino, or in Greek when at Athens, or in English when in Salt Lake City. If you went to a football game, would you really want to hear the National Anthem translated over the PA system after it's been sung?

I've seen this example given a couple of times...(quote from the NY daily news site below, but the example is the same)
quote:
Can a national anthem coexist in two languages? Sure. The late Roger Doucet sang "O Canada" in French and English before Montreal Canadiens hockey games, and it was stirring in both.

...for one, that's Canada. And two if you tried to do that elsewhere to show your support for German, Russian, or French patriotism by singing their hallowed songs in English and not their native tongue, chances are you'd be called some names. It's the same situation as the one I talked about above, and it already is the same here in the US.

Also...note that the song isn't a direct literal translation of The Star Spangled Banner into Spanish, it's only "based on" the National Anthem, but the variation regardless is being endorsed by supporters who want it to BE the national anthem. In fact, one of the few English lyrics in the song says: "These kids have no parents, cause all of these mean laws ... let's not start a war with all these hard workers, they can't help where they were born." To me that seems to support Latino/Mexican/Hispanic/whatever Illegal Immigrants rather than the true legal Latino community...and Illegal immigrants, no matter which way you slice it, are ILLEGAL (one of my few pollitical pet peeves).


I'm pretty well tuckered out for the night...so I can't really form more of what I had wanted to say, but I think y'all will get the idea. I firmly believe the US National Anthem must be sung in English and stay pretty much true to the original. (Honestly I'm not a big fan of the Hendrix version either, though for reasons concerning my dislike of the guitar-playing style.) If immigrants and supporters believe in America so much, at least respect the National Anthem and sing it in English...for all I care you can say everything else in Spanish.


Some links I've found...(more to come, and feel free to post more links)
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment...3p-348112c.html
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/S...EMPLATE=DEFAULT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuestro_Himno


IMPORTANT NOTE: I am aware of the possible touchy nature of this recent event. I ask...rather, I demand that people not make any replies to posts here personal attacks towards other members (including myself). If this thread gets too 'hot', moderators and admins have my consent to lock it immediately.
Generalissimo D 04-28-2006 10:59 PM
First and foremost, I'd like to point out that despite how any of you may feel, this country was founded on illegal immigrants. Lawls.

Secondly, this country has no official language. English is de facto.

Thirdly, it's a motherf***ing anthem. It's not like their translating Strawberry Fields or something.
David Ryder 04-28-2006 11:05 PM
Hmm. I agree there Evan. oh and isn't May 1 when all the latino's go out and start bitching about how everyone is out to get them? I have my own views on this topic however PCF isn't the best place to post them. So I'll keep them to myself.
The Fallen Phoenix 04-28-2006 11:19 PM
I think...it's kind of sad how negatively immigrants--yes, even the illegal ones--are viewed by so many Americans. It's actually really sad. I think if you actually stop and considered why so many immigrants are illegal...I'll be honest, I really do think the whole "they're illegal ergo have no respect for our country's laws" holds absolutely no weight and is incredibly presumptive (and more than a little arrogant).

Nonetheless...it's...the National Anthem, yes. And honestly? The Anthem means nothing to me. It's a nice little song that reminds me of a foolish war that served little purpose in the end.

I can think of three, maybe four songs that would make for better anthems, actually. Pity it is not up to me to choose which song should be.

...don't get me wrong, I respect the flag, and the anthem, and I mean no disrespect. I respect and love America despite many of its flaws.

And...the Latinos aren't the only immigrants out there. Again...more misconceptions that don't anger me, or piss me off...they just sadden me. They've been the most visible, yes, but they aren't the only ones who exist.

Getting back on topic...forgive me if my thoughts are disjointed, I'm not putting too much thought or effort into this post because I have more pressing things on my mind. My point is, it's just a song, it really doesn't have too much meaning to me, although I resepct the meaning it has for others. I think it is perfectly fine to translate it into Spanish, or whatever other language you'd like: I also think that "officially" singing it only in English (for public purposes and events) is a very valid argument.

I'd continue, but Justice Jackson did such an excellent job of saying everything I would say regarding respect for national symbols and the like...go look up Barnette v. West Virginia and read the majority opinion, it's well worth it.

But at the same time...damn, must we politicize everything? Perhaps there are some people out there who aren't trying to solicit votes, but who are actually trying to do what they believe is the right thing, what they perceive as what is best for the country and the people, citizens or not, who live in it?
Dude Love 04-28-2006 11:48 PM
This is actually somewhat of a shame. First of all, I don't think we need to really get into a debate as to why people are here. The honest truth is that most immigrants (legal or otherwise) are law abiding people. Even the illegal ones are just people who want to work for a living and support their families. While it's unfortunate they had to break laws to get here, I think it's more a problem with difficulties in immigration and life elsewhere in the world.

However, I was reading on these protests a bit, the ones planned for May Day, and I was a little upset. There is a difference between protesting and making a point, and shutting down cities (which is the goal). While shutting down cities is a great way to get noticed, it's also incredibly not cool. And schools and workplaces are just going along with it...*shrug* I'm just really angry, mostly because I fear for my Monday commute.

On the anthem, however. I think the situation described by Justice Jackson and the situation here is quite different. For starters, this is not using a national symbol to protest a policy or something you don't like: It's asserting a new symbol. Changing both the lyrics and the tune is saying "respect our alternative anthem". Perhaps I am a bit cynical and am thinking if I were to say no, I'd get a response along the lines of "then you don't respect me as a person", but I think it's even more arrogant than anything I could ever pull off on this issue to assert that this other "national anthem" deserves as much respect as the official anthem.

Second, I just find the whole idea stupid (and anything that stupid automatically lacks any validity in my mind, even if it has any sort of technical rights basis). Essentially, "Nuestro Himno" is an assertion of separation from American culture while claiming to be an American. This is trying to have it both ways, something I won't stand for personally. I don't think you can legitimately say you're American while at the same time waving a Mexican flag and making up your own version of National Symbols. Carlos Mencia has a short rant about this same issue. National pride is great and all (Go Germany!), but at the same time I don't try to claim I'm separately German and separately American.
The Baker St. Irregular 04-28-2006 11:54 PM
Like the immigration issue in general, I don't know what to think of this whole thing, either. But I will admit, the look on my face when I heard about it ran along the lines of "WTF?".

Perhaps it's all a case of misdirected attention. Spend less time squabbling over a song and its issues/making a song and its issues, and actually focus on the bigger problem at hand.

I do realize the translation thing is an effort of principles, and principles are important, especially when it comes to trying to make changes in a society. But there's something about it... Something about not only translating the national anthem into Spanish, but adding in strange lyrics, that makes me weary. Like the flag, I don't believe the anthem is some sort of holy object that mustn't be tampered with. However, again, this issue makes me weary.

Although I may harshly disagree with my country's politicians, their decisions, and even certain things about the government itself, I will never lose faith in our overarching struggle for freedom in whatever form it may take. It's inheirent... It's in our history. And no matter how much some may whine and whine and whine about it, I believe that America has the ability to do what is right and fair about this immigration issue.
The Fallen Phoenix 04-28-2006 11:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dude Love
On the anthem, however. I think the situation described by Justice Jackson and the situation here is quite different. For starters, this is not using a national symbol to protest a policy or something you don't like: It's asserting a new symbol. Changing both the lyrics and the tune is saying "respect our alternative anthem". Perhaps I am a bit cynical and am thinking if I were to say no, I'd get a response along the lines of "then you don't respect me as a person", but I think it's even more arrogant than anything I could ever pull off on this issue to assert that this other "national anthem" deserves as much respect as the official anthem.


Oh, no no no, I agree completely; I meant for my views on national symbols in general one should read Justice Jackson. Because...as I said before, I don't care for the anthem too much myself, although that isn't to say I do not agree with those who think it should be afforded some measure of respect. I do disagree, however, when it becomes a matter of "one must love the anthem or one is unAmerican" sort of idea.

Although...I think that, on some level, there is some deeper protest at work rather than just "respect our alternate symbol": at least, for some people. Nonetheless, I agree that...it is rather silly.

Although I would also like to point that not all the May Day protests are going to be so bad. There are actually going to be a few peaceful ones staged in New York City that I think should be particularly effective.
Mugiwara Luffy 04-29-2006 12:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Zenigata-Da-Vida
(Honestly I'm not a big fan of the Hendrix version either, though for reasons concerning my dislike of the guitar-playing style.)


I could pretty much agree with you until that point.

But seriously, though I have not heard the song, it sounds like it is such a departure from the real National Anthem (which I love and respect, and would consider no other song as a replacement) that it's not really doing any harm to the integrity of that song. HOWEVER, when I hear that people are supporting this as the NEW national anthem, I get pissed. I'm certainly not racist, but I do hate stupid and ignorant people. And if you are going to come to America, the land of opportunity, looking for a way to live a better life, you could at least respect the country that gives you that chance. Learn English, sing the anthem with pride, and obey the laws quietly, like every other good citizen, legal or not.
Big Money 04-29-2006 12:05 AM
I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is. I mean, its not as though they're replacing the National Anthem with this remix... they're just making another song.


Really, I'd only be offended if they changed around what people sing at baseball games to something as goofy as a latin pop song... and even then, it'd really only be a roll eyes moment, not a freak out and coup up on the govornment moment.




Call me apathetic, but meh.
Dude Love 04-29-2006 12:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by The Fallen Phoenix
Although I would also like to point that not all the May Day protests are going to be so bad. There are actually going to be a few peaceful ones staged in New York City that I think should be particularly effective.


Duct-taping your arms together and sitting in the middle of the highway is a peaceful protest too (that is, until someone pulls out their baseball bat), but that doesn't mean anything. Even if there are some really peaceful ones that don't interfere, just one stupid thing like sitting on a major highway is going to mess things up royally. Not only does it mess things up for me, but it may mess things up for the greater protesting community: I freely admit, ever since I was caught in the most pointless traffic jam of my life, I have lost much respect for all protesters, just by mere association.

---

I don't agree with the "love it or leave it" sentiment either, but whenever I think of protesting, I think of mocking something, or using a symbol to make a positive point. I just think that what's going on here is that same having your cake and eating it too idea I mentioned earlier.

Plus, I think Jack Bauer would be inclined to agree with me.
Sharpshooter005 04-29-2006 01:12 AM
quote:
this country was founded on illegal immigrants. Lawls.


Er....what?

The pilgrims? They weren't entering a formally recognized nation, so...not so much. The sons of liberty/founding fathers/etc? Colonists. I'm..assuming you meant one of those groups at least.

Unless we're counting the indian nations, as in we 'illegally' entered their borders and settled on the land, as formal nations (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the British/Spanish/other powers which colonized North America didn't really aknowledge them as such, and if they did they were more than ready to welch on that aknowledgment when it was convenient) with the accompanying formalized immigration procedures. I'll admit my knowledge of the native american nations is sketchy, but I'm totally unaware of their being some sort of immigration procedure being drawn up by any of them.

Also, if I may be completely cynical about this "day without an immigrant" schtick....somehow I'm not seeing this working out for the following reasons

1) Say you're an illegal immigrant. Now say you don't show up for work one day, and your boss decides to just fire you on the spot. Will you get the union after him? Will you claim breach of contract? Probably not, as you're being paid under the table, and theres no sort of binding legal contract granting you certain assured employment rights. As again, you aren't technically supposed to be here having evaded the normal immigration/naturalization channels.

2) Now lets say your boss dosen't fire you. Or you don't really have a "boss", you're sort of an independant contractor who stands outside of the home depot or what have you. You're still, presumably, here to earn a living for yourself/your family/assorted dependants.....are you really going to want to just forefit those wages to make a vague and nebulous point that will probably just be lost to partisan bickering? This is just a guess, but I'm assuming you'd rather eat that day/week.

3) Wouldn't it be INCREDIBLY easy to find said illegals? Couldn't you just look for anyone skipping work that day? Just a hypothetical. But I was always under the impression if you want to successfully get away with a violation of the law, your instinct would be (if you're smart about it) to evade undue attention...which..self-identifying loudly as an illegal immigrant might attract.

My question is...how much of this is going to be actual illegal immigrants, and how much is going to be people trying to "stick it to da man" by attatching themselves to an issue they don't really have any hand in? And when I say people I mean high schoolers, since...wasn't the number of kids basically just cutting class to "participate" in that big march a few weeks back incredibly high?
Generalissimo D 04-29-2006 09:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpshooter005
quote:
this country was founded on illegal immigrants. Lawls.


Er....what?

The pilgrims? They weren't entering a formally recognized nation, so...not so much. The sons of liberty/founding fathers/etc? Colonists. I'm..assuming you meant one of those groups at least.

Unless we're counting the indian nations, as in we 'illegally' entered their borders and settled on the land, as formal nations (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the British/Spanish/other powers which colonized North America didn't really aknowledge them as such, and if they did they were more than ready to welch on that aknowledgment when it was convenient) with the accompanying formalized immigration procedures. I'll admit my knowledge of the native american nations is sketchy, but I'm totally unaware of their being some sort of immigration procedure being drawn up by any of them.


Well they didn't exactly ask to stay, did they? Considering the amount of Natives they wiped out.

quote:

My question is...how much of this is going to be actual illegal immigrants, and how much is going to be people trying to "stick it to da man" by attatching themselves to an issue they don't really have any hand in? And when I say people I mean high schoolers, since...wasn't the number of kids basically just cutting class to "participate" in that big march a few weeks back incredibly high?


Haha. I remember that. Only what, a dozen or so of those kids knew what the f*** was going on?

The bittersweet part is that people caught and ticketed had to, in addition to paying the fee, write a two-page essay(that could be a horrible pun...) on why they were marching.
evanASF27 04-29-2006 10:17 AM
...I'd just like to point out that the purpose of this thread was to discuss the song. NOT immigration (illegal or legal).

Please stick to the subject Smile because if I had wanted a "What do you make of immigration?" thread, I'd have done so...but this is about the song mentioned in my first post. So please keep it that way folks Cool

*Thank you!*



quote:
Originally posted by Big Money
I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is. I mean, its not as though they're replacing the National Anthem with this remix... they're just making another song.

Just you wait, Money. That's probably what some of them radical protesters are aiming to do next. (I say radical cos there are different types of protesters)
IanC 04-29-2006 10:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Zenigata-Da-Vida
has rewritten the sacred "Stars Spangled Banner"

Whats so bloody sacred about it? The music was burrowed from another song in the first place.
X Prime 04-29-2006 10:38 AM
Ian?

If you have nothing constructive or even remotely informative or interesting to say dear boy... say nothing.

I mean what the hell? Do you have this inferiority complex that must assert itself every time a topic related to America shows up in the form of some vague, asinine, and depreciating comment? I can't be the only one who has noticed this habit of yours. I suggest it stops, because I grow weary of it.
evanASF27 04-29-2006 10:43 AM
I was about to explain why it's sacred...but realized what X had realized halfway through it.

Ian, no offense...but contribute to the thread or just don't post in it. That doesn't mean you have to support my views, but at least make it worth 2cents.
X Prime 04-29-2006 10:44 AM
He's been doing stuff like this for awhile, i.e, trolling whenever he sees American things being mentioned, but it's been so vague that I don't think I can go to mods about it. Need I remind you of that comment he made contributing NOTHING when the Rolling Stones at the Superbowl thing came up?

Not to mention his logic is inherently faulty. By his logic, anything borrowed from something else is somehow lesser or not worthy of high recognition, let's ignore the fact that we as humans borrow half our genes from each of our parents, et cetera et cetera et cetera. According to him then we clearly must be equivalent or inferior to our parents no matter what due to simply being a genetic recombination, as they were of their parents. Clearly we are also equivalent or inferior to apes due to this.

Thanks for the slap at the basic tenets of evolution.

---

Now then, the issue at hand.

Honestly, I must concur wth Sir Wien of Burger and Evan... there's something a tad wrong to me about rewriting a national anthem FOR A SPECIFIC GROUP OR SUVGROUP of a country, then claiming that this song somehow has the clout to stand next to another anthem that has been in force for... how long now, just because an uptight (and yes I have no qualms about using that word) group thinks so.
StevieV019 05-01-2006 07:58 AM
Dont worry about him, X Prime, he's still pissed the colonists knocked off the great British Empire back in the 1700's, and again in 1812 to sweep the best of 3...

Thus, he desires to find any way possible to show the unimportance of anything American because of his own internal struggle...
X Prime 05-01-2006 03:33 PM
To be fair, 1812 was technically a draw.

Though we got more out of it than the British did by far in absolute terms. By FAR. It was effectively a waste for Britain while in our case it improved the army.

That and while everybody makes a big deal out of the White House getting torched, they seem to forget we burned down Canada's parliament buildings.
Chitter-Box-Kat 05-01-2006 04:20 PM
I don't give a rats f-ing ass about what language the national anthem is in. Or if it's a direct translation. IT'S. A. SONG.

For the love of all things holy in this world, America is famous (or at least well known) for being a cuturally diverse nation. I think a song based off the national anthem in Spanish is a good example of cultural diversity.

And a final note: EVERYBODY IN THIS COUNTRY IS A GOD-DAMNED IMMIGRANT EXCEPT FOR THE INDIANS BECAUSE THEY WERE HERE FIRST!! Shocked Mad

Thank you for your time. Anime Smile