Plato's Forms - BIG O!

ScionofDestiny 04-23-2006 07:24 PM
Alright, since I've made a posting about the allegory of the caves, I might as well go all the way.

Plato theorized that our universe of space, time, and matter, which is ruled by chaos and change due to time, was just the shadow made from a metaphorical "fire" between our false reality and the true reality.

Plato believed that the true universe was eternal and complete - there is no need for change. He believed that we - everything we are - came from Forms. He believed that there was a Form for any conceivable object or idea. There was courage in our universe, but it was based on the archetype that is the FORM OF COURGE - there are forms of dogs, forms of humans, forms of androids, and so on and so forth - everything is simply a shadow.

In Big O, we see the Forms of Roger, Dorothy, and Angel. At first, I assumed this was Old/New Testament based - but that theory had too many holes in it. This theory, however, explains all of the mysteries.

The people in Paradigm City are one being with their Form, but the true, complete, eternal them still exists within the True Universe. There is irony here, because while Plato views that the world we live in (earth, and our universe in general) - he held that philosophers could gain glimpses of this true universe and then try and inspire other people with ideas so they could follow their thought patterns and also see a glimpse of the True Universe.

Now for the irony. Plato said the universe we live in is false, but Paradigm City itself is false - the purpose of Schwartzwald, for example, is to escape from Paradigm and get into our reality - the one we live in. It would be funny if Schwartzwald got into our reality and then heard about Plato's theory.

Schwartzwald: FINALLY! I'm FREE! Huh? What's this?!

"picks up Plato's Republic and reads about the Forms"

Schwartzwald: NO!!! NOT AGAIN!

He would escape from Paradigm universe into our universe and then realize that the one truth he found was still just a lie.

That of course is based on the assumption that Plato was correct - and Plato himself seemed to start doubting his Form theory as he got older, as the last dialogues in Plato's Republic seem to signify, since he started critizing his own theory. More significantly, Al-Farabi, a student of Plato and Aristotle, didn't even mention the Forms when he wrote a book about his mentors. Aristotle, an older student of Plato, mentioned the Forms in passing, but he preferred hard facts of the physical universe to Plato's idealism.

AT LAST - THE POINT: At the end of the second season, Roger, Dorothy, and Angel achieve reunion with their True Selves - their Eternal Forms - metaphorically if nothing else. They needed to assume these Forms again so they could recreate Paradigm City in a new light - Paradigm City is based on our world - in the anime, OUR WORLD is the Form on which Paradigm is based, whereas our world itself was, in Plato's view, based on the True Forms.

Circles within circles, right? Wink
The Fallen Phoenix 04-23-2006 07:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ScionofDestiny
Alright, since I've made a posting about the allegory of the caves, I might as well go all the way.

Plato theorized that our universe of space, time, and matter, which is ruled by chaos and change due to time, was just the shadow made from a metaphorical "fire" between our false reality and the true reality.

Plato believed that the true universe was eternal and complete - there is no need for change. He believed that we - everything we are - came from Forms. He believed that there was a Form for any conceivable object or idea. There was courage in our universe, but it was based on the archetype that is the FORM OF COURGE - there are forms of dogs, forms of humans, forms of androids, and so on and so forth - everything is simply a shadow.

In Big O, we see the Forms of Roger, Dorothy, and Angel. At first, I assumed this was Old/New Testament based - but that theory had too many holes in it. This theory, however, explains all of the mysteries.

The people in Paradigm City are one being with their Form, but the true, complete, eternal them still exists within the True Universe. There is irony here, because while Plato views that the world we live in (earth, and our universe in general) - he held that philosophers could gain glimpses of this true universe and then try and inspire other people with ideas so they could follow their thought patterns and also see a glimpse of the True Universe.

Now for the irony. Plato said the universe we live in is false, but Paradigm City itself is false - the purpose of Schwartzwald, for example, is to escape from Paradigm and get into our reality - the one we live in. It would be funny if Schwartzwald got into our reality and then heard about Plato's theory.

Schwartzwald: FINALLY! I'm FREE! Huh? What's this?!

"picks up Plato's Republic and reads about the Forms"

Schwartzwald: NO!!! NOT AGAIN!

He would escape from Paradigm universe into our universe and then realize that the one truth he found was still just a lie.

That of course is based on the assumption that Plato was correct - and Plato himself seemed to start doubting his Form theory as he got older, as the last dialogues in Plato's Republic seem to signify, since he started critizing his own theory. More significantly, Al-Farabi, a student of Plato and Aristotle, didn't even mention the Forms when he wrote a book about his mentors. Aristotle, an older student of Plato, mentioned the Forms in passing, but he preferred hard facts of the physical universe to Plato's idealism.

AT LAST - THE POINT: At the end of the second season, Roger, Dorothy, and Angel achieve reunion with their True Selves - their Eternal Forms - metaphorically if nothing else. They needed to assume these Forms again so they could recreate Paradigm City in a new light - Paradigm City is based on our world - in the anime, OUR WORLD is the Form on which Paradigm is based, whereas our world itself was, in Plato's view, based on the True Forms.

Circles within circles, right? Wink


I...don't have the time (or the energy) to make a complete intelligent response to all of this, although I think there are some valid points raised, and I also think you did a good job of briefly capturing the essence of Plato's Idea (Forms). Although I will say that...Aristotle did have his own theroies on what constituted the Idea of things, so it really wasn't something that he just brushed by, he dealt with it in some of his writings, too (granted I am only familiar with Ethics and Politics, although I understand he addresses them in other works, too).

But...I think this does beg the question: what are the Idea of Roger, Angel, and Dorothy? What is it that makes Roger, Roger, Angel, Angel, and Dorothy, Dorothy? That is the crux of Plato's Idea: not only that it is the eternal essence floating in Heaven (the heavenly triangle that the worldly triangle is a shadow of), but it is what makes an object an object, or a person a person.

The "good" (or alternatively, excellent) person is the person who most closely resembles the Idea, essence, of a person.

So what are we supposed to believe is Roger's Idea? To be a negotiator? Is Angel's to be a director? Then what would be Dorothy's?
ScionofDestiny 04-23-2006 07:40 PM
Check my thread on the Forms for more info - really, read that before you read this.

Roger's true form - the archetype his character, Roger the Negotiator was based on - is probably a Major in the United States Army. There is a explanation on that somewhere in the main site, but this is my explanation. It is based in part off the movie Metropolis. This theory is similar to that theory, but there are some differences.

2026 - Mankind has made great advances in Quantum and other Physics related scientific fields since the dawn of the 21st century. Computer science has made new leaps and bounds, and long-time AI related-philosophical debates have been laid to rest once the first sentinent android was activated - a being that began to exhibit human like thought processes and behaviors. Recently, mankind has began delving into humanoid tanks - Megadeuses.

For one reason or another, there is a great war. A United Statesmilitary officer named Roger Smith who has been schooled in the Socratic method of arguing (lawyer) is lieutenant under Major Dan Dastun, along with adjacents like Lieutenant Casey Jenkins. Major Dastun is promoted to Colonel, and Roger Smith becomes the leader of the Megadeus tank outfit of infrantry Bigs - the Big O's.

We see a bunch of marching Big O's in Roger's memories.

Anyway, President Gordon Rosewater of the United States gives Timothy Wayneright, head of android and megadeus development within the Western Hemisphere, leave to create newer and better Megadeuses - such as the Big Duo airforce model and the Commander Unit Big Fau - which the President himself uses, becoming the first president to go to battle for over two-hundred years.

Predictably, due to nuclear discharges and battles, the world becomes a desert wasteland. Only a few survive. Among these survivors are the president Gordon Rosewater, a reporter named Michel Seebach who covered the war from around the world, an android named Dorothy who was made by Timothy Wayneright after his daughter, who was Roger's girlfriend, died in battle, and of course Roger himself! Other key characters we see in Big O - every conceivable character and idea actually!

These characters all rally around the charismatic leader, Roger Smith. He gained renown during the war. Because their world is gone, Roger Smith gets Timothy Wayneright and other scientists to start developing Quantum technology - which manifests itself in the form of a giant stage called Paradigm City. This place is "reality" - but it is a different reality. A reality generated inside a dome by Quantum technology. A reality where perception (which is influenced strongly by memory) determines reality, not reality influencing perception.

Basically Major Roger Smith rallies the survivors who are wandering the wastelands around the four corners of the now desert-eternal winter world - from all over the world. That is why Paradigm City is a place of cultural variety.

Thus they create the shifting, changing world of Paradigm City. The characters within the city are really the people outside too. According to Plato, we are them and they are us - but we are consciously seperated.

Paradigm City becomes our universe, and our universe becomes the Universe of Forms on which archetypes, like Major Roger Smith is the archetype for the Negotiator Roger!

This isn't entirely accurate, but I think that this puts us very close to the truth of what happened "forty" years ago.

By and by. There have been multiple inerations of Paradigm City. The Forms are eternal, but our universe (in this case, paradigm city) is shifting, and changing. So there have been multiple events there, but outside the Archetypes remain the same - Roger, Dorothy, Angel, and all the other survivors.
Hobodoken 04-23-2006 07:42 PM
...

Couldn't, nay, shouldn't this have been a part of that topic, and not another thread?
ScionofDestiny 04-23-2006 07:56 PM
Alright - well Dorothy then.

I have to make a lot of assumptions about all of this, since no one does really know the precise nature of the "event" - whether there was only one or if it is multiple, or the world "studio" outside Paradigm City.

So Roger is the Major on which Negotiator Roger is based
So Angel is the lieutenant on which Director Angel is based
So what is Dorothy? Hmm ...

I'm assuming that Dorothy was probably Timothy's daughter, Roger's girlfriend, and also a fatality of the war. I assume that sometime during or after the war in which the world was destroyed, Timothy made an android Dorothy who in turn met Roger again - probably big angst scene right there if they decided to make a prequel to the series.

People generally view the human and android Dorothy as seperate, but I am beginning to wonder. Even Roger said that Dorothy was "born" in the mansion, but Dorothy herself said she was not - that the Dorothy she was modeled after was. I don't know which one is right, but it is possible that Dorothy just doesn't think she has a sense of self that makes her conclude she is not the other Dorothy. Since Timothy was the leading man in AI research, it is possible he had scientific reasons, even subconsciously, that made him think he could revive his dead daughter.

If you think that is impossible, look at the reality-altering technology that generated the Paradigm reality!

But again, that is assumption.

Since the Form theory makes our own universe kind of ... random, that means the each scenario of Paradigm City is only obliquely related or based on the events prior to "forty" years ago.

I'm also assuming that the same Quantum (or other Physics related)technology that generated the Paradigm reality also makes the True Forms - the survivors of the war - immortal - or maybe the survivors of the war live in a reality like Paradigm that does not change. There is a profound thought.

The True Forms abandon our world altogether, make a eternal universe called the "studio" - and then Paradigm City is made to be a relfection of sorts of the eternal universe.

Quantum technology I guess - or some other Physics related technology.