Roger... Who/what is he?

Lost_Cyborg 04-21-2006 01:30 PM
Title is the fault of one of my friends X_X.

Roger Smith himself says that he's lost his memories (first unwillingly then willingly later on) however, Roger is only in his 20s. How could he have lost his memories from 40 years ago if he's only (for example) 25-7, my farther believes he's an android but doesn't know it himself, and leaves it at that (if someone wants more information on this then Do doubt I can get more) however I don't believe this (Act13, RD-- Roger is shot and bleeds, it's quite a bad wound and he'd of had to of had stitches, something would have been noted if he was a android (this is over looking the possibilities of EXTREAMLY advanced androids and bio-android, but as nether are mentioned in season 1 or 2 I'm ignoring these), but I wonder what he really is, one theory of mine (and one of my personal favourites even if it's a bit woolly) is that Roger is the personification of Death; traditions are important, he is always (mostly) depicted as wearing black with a pale complexion, his hourglass are important to him and he appears to always appear at the End (act 26) of Paradigm; Death is inevitable and always there at the end, the one person whom it is impossible to negotiate with (ignoring a game of skill).

Another theory, one which fits in better with the sci-fi in Paradigm rather that the religious/superstitious side of Paradigm which my Death theory fits in better with, is that he is a clone, a tomato, ‘I think they are called "tomato children" because they are placed in a Vegetative State -no thought or memory or sentient awareness - just flesh. They are then imbued with a soul through the memories of people who lived forty years before - like Roger the Major.’ -- ScionofDestiny
That a new Roger is awakened as is needed in Paradigm as time goes on, accidents still happen and clone or not he can still be hurt.
Mr. Peabody 04-22-2006 07:22 AM
I think when Roger says he can't remember what happened 40 years ago, he's just generalizing in that nobody in Paradigm City can remember 40 years ago. Paradigm City after all, is supposedly the only city remaining in the world, so that would foster a sense of unity and empathy amongst its citzens.

Roger is definitely not an android. I agree with the tomato/clone theory.
Lost_Cyborg 04-22-2006 07:35 AM
That's definitely a possibility, but Roger seems to remember very little about his child hood, after all right at the start of season 1 Dan doesn't really believe the photos Roger has are of his own past, implying that Roger's somehow lost his memories or claims to have done so because of the 'tomato' sequence in his life.

As I really think Roger is a tomato and I know some people don't think he is because Gordon says he's not one of his beloved tomatoes (or what ever it was he said), but I think Gordon said that because unlike the other children/tomatoes Roger didn't do what he was really meant to do, (no umbrella in the rain) while the others conformed and did exactly the same each time, if the ones who were killed by RD really were tomatoes then maybe they were meant to speak of the memories within them.
After all Roger never really mentions his memories, he only has nightmares of them; RD was going to kill him because he didn't follow a master, NOT because he spoke of memories.

Roger is a tomato but not a conformist, thus Gordon doesn't classify him as one of his ‘beloved’ tomatoes who were ‘made’ as memory archives.
Mr. Peabody 04-22-2006 10:01 AM
One of my earlier theories was that Roger was a modern day version of Job, and that God had chosen Roger to be the test subject to see if humanity was worthy of a second chance at life.

In line with my theory is that God appeared before Gordon Rosewater at the end of the nuclear war and guided him in the effort to repopulate Earth via cloning. Gordon however, became egotistical and God responded by erasing everyone's memories and driving Gordon into madness.
Lost_Cyborg 04-22-2006 11:24 AM
That fits, but that’s leaning once again towards the very religious side of Paradigm, and while it's very blatant there is also the scientific side as well.

I find it more feasible that it is the people who started Paradigm as an experiment or last holding of mankind who are represented by a God like figure.
Humanity has looked towards a higher force since time began, there has ALWAYS been something higher than us, and when we got to the top/believed we where at the top we were forced to create something higher to look up to.

I am unsure who the characters in Big O represent and how they do as of yet -one of my current goals is to read the old testament- but I find it hard to believe that Paradigm was created by God/a god, unless there is a 3rd season proving me and my theory to be totally wrong I'm going to continue to believe that the Creators are not God/gods of Paradigm but they are really the personification(s) of the humans who built/programmed/arranged Paradigm.

I'm going to continue working on this theory.

Sorry if that sounds like I'm biting your head off Tongue
Mr. Peabody 04-22-2006 03:39 PM
Biblically and historically, God has chosen individuals to carry out his will. Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, Joan of Arc led the French against the invading English (sorry Lost_Cyborg) Oh Well

In that context, God appears before a scientist/industrialist named Gordon Rosewater to repopulate Earth after a devestating Megadeus War. Like so many in his profession however, Gordon is egotistical and proclaims himself to be the new god. God's vengence is swift and wipes away everyone's memories and strikes down Gordon.

Faced with letting humanity go extinct, God chooses to make the clone of Roger Smith a test subject to see if humanity (i.e. natural, clinical, and mechanical) is worthy of one last chance at survival.
Lost_Cyborg 04-22-2006 04:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Peabody
Biblically and historically, God has chosen individuals to carry out his will. Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, Joan of Arc led the French against the invading English (sorry Lost_Cyborg) Oh Well

It's the same with Politicians. ¬_¬


Basicly it comes down to tests. Even I have to agree with that, if I wanted to be almost Zen I could say that life it's self is a test. But I won't.
Whether it was Religion or Science, God or Man may never be fully determind, however I believe the majority of Paradigm City Citizens... Er... Users, agree that the city in some way is a Test... Whether it's THE Test or just a squance of tests to determin some equation or hypothosis.
ScionofDestiny 04-23-2006 09:31 PM
WELL... I'd say it goes something like this...

Literally speaking, Roger Smith is a genetic clone of a another man named Roger Smith in a reality that is most likely generated by quantum technology that is well beyond our own times.

Scientifically speaking, Roger is the current ineration of a man who has existed in many "paradigm" realities.

Theologically speaking, Roger would symbolically represent the mortal incarnation of God - such as when he is kidnapped by Beck and pinned to the cross.

Platonically philosophically speaking, Roger would be the "idea" of the Roger outside the stage of Paradigm City - in short, the idea of the Form of Roger. Roger the Negotiator is the ideal of the Roger of the Forms.

Generally speaking, Roger is a Negotiator in Paradigm City - a city that has lost it's memory of all events prior to forty years ago.

Simply speaking, Roger is Roger.
MultiMedea 05-01-2006 11:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lost_Cyborg
Title is the fault of one of my friends X_X.

Roger Smith himself says that he's lost his memories (first unwillingly then willingly later on) however, Roger is only in his 20s. How could he have lost his memories from 40 years ago if he's only (for example) 25-7, my farther believes he's an android but doesn't know it himself, and leaves it at that (if someone wants more information on this then Do doubt I can get more) however I don't believe this (Act13, RD-- Roger is shot and bleeds, it's quite a bad wound and he'd of had to of had stitches, something would have been noted if he was a android (this is over looking the possibilities of EXTREAMLY advanced androids and bio-android, but as nether are mentioned in season 1 or 2 I'm ignoring these), but I wonder what he really is, one theory of mine (and one of my personal favourites even if it's a bit woolly) is that Roger is the personification of Death; traditions are important, he is always (mostly) depicted as wearing black with a pale complexion, his hourglass are important to him and he appears to always appear at the End (act 26) of Paradigm; Death is inevitable and always there at the end, the one person whom it is impossible to negotiate with (ignoring a game of skill).

Another theory, one which fits in better with the sci-fi in Paradigm rather that the religious/superstitious side of Paradigm which my Death theory fits in better with, is that he is a clone, a tomato, ‘I think they are called "tomato children" because they are placed in a Vegetative State -no thought or memory or sentient awareness - just flesh. They are then imbued with a soul through the memories of people who lived forty years before - like Roger the Major.’ -- ScionofDestiny
That a new Roger is awakened as is needed in Paradigm as time goes on, accidents still happen and clone or not he can still be hurt.


I just wanted to metion that in Asian cultures (where Big O derives) black is generally not the color of death, white is. You'll note that one of the major villains, Alex Rosewater, wears nearly all white and has white accesories. Also, pale skin (in Asian cultures) is a sign of beauty, breeding, and cultured sophistication. It's not considered unhealthy there the way it is in Western society.
ScionofDestiny 05-01-2006 06:17 PM
Big O follows western culture pretty much to the dot though - and they even made a point that people considered Dorothy's skin ccolor unhealthy in the series. The sickly little girl (Tamie?) remarked on it.

Tamie - Your skin is as white as mine, but I bet you can still go outside.

Dorothy - Can't you?

I'm pretty sure black and white is rooted in western culture as well - remember Constantine? The Devil wore a white suit in that as well. In order to better demonstare my point of what Roger is ...

Humanistically, Roger is a human.

Universally, Roger is a person.

Consciously, Roger is "I".

Allegorically, Roger is a tomato.

Genetically, Roger is (likely) a clone of a man named Roger Smith - his archetype - who existed before forty years ago and was imprinted with the same personality and memories. The memories were sealed away but would surface when he needed the experience they offered to best tough opponets or face complex mysteries.

Biologically, Roger is a mass of cells, organs, and tissue that work in cohesive systems to achieve goals.

Spiritually, Roger is the prophet-messiah who cried "I" and "Me" at the heart of the world when it's End drew near.

Platonically, Roger is (likely) the second (or first) edition of a series of people that are based on the "archetype" Roger, or the Form of Truth that is Roger. He is one with this Form and will return there after "death" - which we may or may not have seen at the end of the second season.

Psychologically, Roger is (likey) a shizophrenic case - which is in a sense is true for any of the tomato children. It is a side effect.

Physically Roger is matter that takes up space.

Metaphysically Roger is "what is, what is Roger?"
Demosthenes 05-01-2006 07:00 PM
It is amazing how an animated series could bring out such deep thinking in all of you individuals. It is remarkable!!!

I believe that the Big O focuses primarily on the christian bible, and all of the science of the show is just superficial. I agree, Roger (especally in the second season) is the modern interpretation of Job. In the first season, I think he was just the negotiator, a character for the anime. The second season is where all of the series gains its grounding. I also believe that the several year gap was the best thing that could have ever happened to big O, giving the writers plenty of time to make their plots. But Im rambling, so thats all, Folks!
Mike 05-01-2006 07:58 PM
I just thought of something. It's probably wrong, but whatever.

You know how there's that picture of Roger and a young Gordon shaking hands?
Would it be possible that, however many times Paradigm City was reset/rewound/rebooted/rewhatever, the only person who wasn't affected was Gordon?
ScionofDestiny 05-01-2006 08:12 PM
There are most definitely Christian-Jewish influences in Big O - you don't have to look very far for them. However, I think that Big O is based more on Platonism than Christian-Juddhism - which I have decided to explain in a more cohesive and organized format than my earlier arguments.

For this post, I will identify some of the obvious Christian-Jewish symbols.

Dorothy - Gift of God (that is what her name means)

Timothy - God's Honor.

Dastun - God is My Judge (Hebru)

Rosewater - Another name for Holy Water.

Roger - "Renowned Spearman" - the spear symbolizes "order" and is a prevalent theme in the Christian doctrine - the spear of destiny, the order of fate.

Smith - Smite (I think many know how this word can be synomonous with the divine)

Big O - Because the word "Omega" used to be - and in some cases still is - to holy to speak out loud, the Greeks developed a speical word that roughly translates to the capital letter "O" - which means that Big O is the literal translation of Omega.

Cast in the Name of God - Ye Not Guility - This was cast on blades of executioners who would kill criminals, heretics, or people accused of being both but were innocent. It means that although they killed, their swords signified that they were "casting" in the name of God and thus would not be guility of sin.

Additionally, Big O is one of the names of God (Omega) - and Cast means "forged". In Jewish myth, a golem is a mechanical giant (sound familar to anyone?) who can be inscribed with one of the Seven Names of God to give it life. Some say that Big O

In Act 19 - the Greatest Villian - Beck captures Roger and pins him to a cross, and then a copycat Roger head that tries to bring down Big O (in this case, an incarnation of God) is born. This seems synomonous with many parts of the Christian doctrine.

In Act 14 - Beck wears a purple robe. Now this probably doesn't mean anything, but purple is a color that has some meaning in the Christian doctrine.

Simutaneously, Roger negotiates with the Director (Angel) on behalf of the people of the world. The Christian-Jewish symbolism in Big O seems very randomly placed, which is why I go more with the Platonic view. So Roger is a prophet (who negotiated directly with God) and the Savior?

In either case, Angel would represent the holy spirit, Big O God, and Roger the Son.

- Inconsequentially, I think Norman's philosophy of always keeping a hot bowl of soup ready for Roger, even though everything dicates he should not come, seems synomonous with Christian thinking in regards to their savior. I would pass this off, but they make it show too many times for it to not to mean something deeper.

Besides, some of the most deep-rooted ancient-religious symbolism in popular culture is inherent in simple actions such as making a bowl of soup.

- Big Ear bears the title "Big" in his name - meaning he is, like the Megadeuses, a messenger of the creator of Paradigm City - "God" if you will. Moreover, he wears a yama (Jewish hat).

- Because of his role in Act 26 - the Show Must Go On - it has been assumed that Big Ear is the Prophet of the End of Time, Elijah. Elijah was an enormously influential in Jewish faith, but his role is diminished somewhat in Christian doctrine due to the nature of the savior (as a divine being, not a mortal prophet to come).

- On Act 26 - many of the events in Act 26 were taken straight out of the Book of Revelation 10 - the plot of that episode itself relies heavily on the Book of Revelation 10, but the ending of second season of Big O, the last two or so minutes, is more Platonic than Christian.

- I'm not going to explain why on this post for the sake of relevancy and being consistant.

- Consider Big Venus. It is large, big, and ... big. More significantly, it has the power to either initiate a Paradigm shift, which literally means changing the way people think and perceive reality (check wikipedia for a more detailed answer).

- Venus is the "star" of "Lucifer" - but that was before he was considered evil. In the old Christian doctrines, as well as the Jews, Lucifer was not considered evil so much as a servant of God who played a role as "Angel of Temptation" - who tempts mortals to tests their faith.

- In old religion, Lucifer was so positively thought of in regards to being one of the Seraphim (highest order of angels) that one of the early Catholic popes assumed the name "Lucifer". The view of Lucifer being disloyal became a mainstream view in modern religion when the King James version of the Bible was published.

- ALRIGHT - so in some cases Big O is based more off old Christianity-Juddhism than modern Christianity. Most Jews or Christians no longer believe in Golems for example. Also, considering Big Venus's role, it seems to follow the old view of Lucifer rather than the modern one - a servant who carries out divine orders rather than opposes them.

Actually, many Christian thinkers, theologians, and philosophers have began to lean back toward the old way of thinking about Lucifer - as a servant who role-plays under God's orders rather than a would-be rival. They reason that Lucifer, being an Angel, must know that conflict with the all-encompassing power would be futile, illogical, and impossible. Lucifer may be many things, but he can't be altogether stupid. Even in texts that testify Lucifer is evil and against God, many point out that there is strange evidence that supports who is still a servant.

Or at least, that is the assumption that is being made.

Looking at all of this, we tend to think that Christianity or Juddhism is all there is to Big O. Actually, due to the inconsistancy of the symbolism, I get the feeling that it was more of a series of sub-symbols. The Big O is based more off Plato's Theory of Forms and Allegory of the Cave. I'll explain why (once more) in a my cohesive argument than my earlier postings.

Of course, Platonic and Neoplatonic thinking did effect Jewish and Christian sects in the years after Christ's death - particularily Gnosticism, which can be Jewish or Christian (or even Pagan) depending on which doctrines you decide to approach.

Putting religion, philosophy, and psychology aside for a moment, we should remember not to underestimate the modern pop cultural symbolism in Big O. "Metropolis" - a 1920's movie that they will almost certainly show you if you decide to go to film school - is a prevalent theme in Big O. The Megadeus designs actually follow the robotic designs from Metropolis, as well as androids who aren't Dorothy.
Lost_Cyborg 05-03-2006 05:31 AM
Well I'm not religious in anyway so I'm very likely not to ever understand the religious side of Big O; although I am making my business to read a bible sometime (old testament).

However I do understand/except psychology and science much more easily even if I continue to question it; so I guess I'll be looking deeper into the scientific and physiological side of Paradigm, considering my how mind seems to work as a Paradigm Shift in it's own I'm not sure if that'll make things easier or harder; properly the latter.

However I thank you all for posting these hypothesises and theorems; I believe they've really helped even if I disagree and question much of it.
Dangerous 05-08-2006 03:34 PM
And what about "franc-maçonnerie" ? Sorry I don't know the exact word in English, but we say that in French. This is the maçonnic sect.
Behind the French DVD of the first four episodes of season one there is a summary about 'The Big O'. It is written, in French : "Roger Smith is a negociator. He belongs to an enigmatic brotherhood whose role is to give justice and to solve the problems of the citizens of Paradigm-City, the city of amnesia .... " I tried to make my best possible.
The members of the maçonnic sect are brothers who have for role to help people worldwide and to give justice. That's only what I know ...

I give you two examples of the relation between Big O and franc-maçonnerie :
This is Roger's house. And in the franc-maçonnerie museum of Brussels there were a picture of a house exactly the same one than Roger's house. Even at a corner. It was it. There were a lot of pictures of maçonnic structures, and this picture told that this house was in the USA. Unfortunately I didn't find the same picture on the net. And I don't remember the name of this structure. I saw it, and afterwards I saw Roger's house which was exactly the same structure than this I've seen in the museum.

Another example :
and
There are a lot of other symbols, but they are the same. Please visit the site below to see by yourself, even if you don't understand French.

http://www.franc-maconnerie.org/ (the French site)

Go here http://www.franc-maconnerie.org/web-page...lebrites-fm.htm to see the total big personality who belongs (belonged) to franc-maçonnerie.



YOU DID A VERY GOOD JOB SCIONOFDESTINY.
ScionofDestiny 05-09-2006 07:06 PM
That is a good find - symbols fascinate me. Their role in history and the psyche in general is amazing. The human brain actually has a schema for identifying symbols - something to do with the nervous system.

I've always wondered if Roger had more people than Norman on the Big O boat. All of those people working with Norman on Big O at the end struck me as odd. They seemed very much accustomed to their surroundings, and all of them seemed to know each other.

"They won't take our reason for living just yet."

Maybe all of these people belong to a brotherhood Roger is the cornerstone of.
Demosthenes 05-09-2006 08:10 PM
Could you really see one person maintaining Big O? That Symbol is that of the masons, who are a hot topic of discussion with the conspiracy theorists. . .Can you tell me a city that you saw this in? Or even a state? I can find this building if you can give me a narrower search (There are thousands of mason buildings in the US)
Dangerous 05-10-2006 05:31 AM
Sorry Demosthenes, I only know this building is in the USA. Mybe this building is in the east, maybe near Chicago. Really I don't know .... but I think it was there. I am not sure. I am nearly sure I am confusing with other structures near washington DC, etc ....
I know I can go again to this museum to see this picture again, but I have now no time for that. I am sure that we can find those pictures on internet, but I tried to find them, without success. I don't know the key words to find those structures. Can you help me? I know this is exactly the same house than Roger's one, but in brown, like dark red.
Demosthenes 05-10-2006 06:06 AM
The Masonic Temple in chicago was VERY famous. It was the worlds tallest building in 1892.
Dangerous 05-10-2006 06:47 AM
Excellent Demosthenes ! However I have still a doubt. Sorry, but you know it was time ago I visited this museum, and I can't swear you that Roger's house was exactly the same than the Masonic Temple in Chicago. But they are both similar. They are at a corner. And the architecture is the same. Is there a nearly same temple in New York city? Like this and like Roger's house. Because Paradigm-city is New York I believe, so there must be a temple there, which is Roger's house, if we have any chance to prove that.

Thank you Demosthenes. Smile