Roger... Who/what is he?

Demosthenes 05-10-2006 08:27 PM
The Grand Temple of New York is nothing like rogers house:

But I am looking for more in NYC itself. . .

Edit: Im not having much luck, I will continue searching.
Mike 05-10-2006 08:29 PM
Back when the show was still on, the general idea was that Roger's house was a former bank and the black stuff was to keep people from seeing Big O kept inside.
Dangerous 05-12-2006 06:13 AM
Thank you Demosthenes. Don't loose your time for me. Big Grin I will try to find this picture by myself. You did enough.

The New York masonic temple architecture is like the White House in Washington DC. Is the White House a masonic temple ?

Remember the thread title : Roger : who / what is he? Our opinions are out-subject ... Frown

Good day Demosthenes Wink
Mike 05-12-2006 06:20 PM
Washington DC's architecture was based on the temples and government buildings of ancient Rome.

And I think that Washington was a mason, along with some of the other foudners, so the buildings bearing some sort of resemblance to masonic temples isn't really surprising. It's just a club, they're not the Illuminati or anything.
paradoxx 05-12-2006 10:08 PM
side notes:

numbers: 33 is a common number used in masonry (33 degrees, 1/3rd of 99, multipels of 11, master number etc. . .) and rogers licence plate is R-33.

Patterns: rogers tie, alan gabriels suit, teh designs ofthe megadeuces all represenetive of the ego and superego (guess which represnts the superego). I woudl imagine that the sect of rreemasonry is very interested in such conceps (i would imagine since i have nothign to do with freemasonry, except having the same last name as one of the inspiring historical figures, Benedict d'Espinoza)

and of course the hive conciouness, androids merging with megadeuces, hunasn merging with megadeuces, megadeuces "whiting out" reality all very conductive to the more esoteric interpreations of the bible, and that is something that feemasonry may or may not be interested in.

On another side note: I share my birthday with the Great SEal of the United States (www.greatseal.com) so with an 'eye' for detail the pattern above rogers entrance is where the cameras eye was revealed in episode 23. *sign* I don't know what i was trying to get at.
Dangerous 05-13-2006 04:03 PM
go here to see who is a freemason : http://www.franc-maconnerie.org/web-page...lebrites-fm.htm

Good job paradoxx
zakcattack 05-13-2006 07:18 PM
Well. I think that roger was at one time human, when he did the negotiations with Gordon for the construction of the superdome after the megadues war. But it seems to me that paradigm is nothing more than a grand experiment on memories. Roger, in the show, seems to be nothing more than a memory of a man who negotiated. But, when you see Roger's flashback in ep. 26 where he is a soldier throws me off. It explains his natural ability to pilot Big O, but then why is he a negotiator almost immediately after that?
ScionofDestiny 05-14-2006 12:45 AM
Roger Smith before the event had his memories assimulated into Big O the same way Schwartzwald had his memories assimulated into Big Duo!

ALRIGHT - let start with my conception of the Megadeuses and androids so we can make sense of this simple statement.

Psychology assumes that memory is derived from our experiences. This position is argued by Platonists.

Plato said that Memory can be derived from both experience and innate knowledge. This view has often been disputed because it conflicts with "all people are born equal" dogma. In his defense, Plato was the philosopher who is often credited for starting the "individualism" movement. Plato was the first to clearly say and draw conclusions for "no two people are exactly alike" - which conflicted with the "slaves are cattle" approach.

WHAT IS BIG O? WJHAT ARE THE MEGADEUSES?
The Megadeus are likely advanced AI comissioned by the United States government during WWIII - humanoid tanks if you will.

Megadeus didn't begin their existence with sapience - or self-awareness.

People self-generate their sense of self (who we are) with their memories. A good example is this. Someone writes a book. They remember writing a book. They use that memory of themselves writing to form a part of their sense of self - they are a writer.

Thus memories play a key role in creating the "sense of self". Without memories, we "don't know who we are" - "we don't know who the self is".

We now return to the Megadeuses.

The Megadeuses were probably invented before androids. It is possible that androids existed when Big O was made, but it seems probable that the existence of the Megadeus archetype predates that of the android because the android consciousness seems more advanced.

Androids were probably created to be skilled workers - at least in the beginning of their craftmanship. An android is frickin expensive. If they were made, they were made for a reason that is beneficial for those who made them.

Since androids were made to be skilled workers, we can surmise that sapience (self-awareness) was a built-in program which would allow them to learn from experience, associate with their masters, and so on and so forth. It seems likely that androids have always been second-class citizens.

Megadeus are piloted beings. They would not need sapience. In fact, having a sapient weapon is probably a bad idea. Androids are created with the "three laws" to prevent them from becoming weapons. Megadeuses are made to be weapons.

Instead of having a built-in program that allows for sapience, Megadeuses created, or self-generated (self-generation is a major religious theme) their own sapience - they made their own sense of self.

This isn't impossible. In fact, it is likely. Evolutionary psychologists explain that human beings probably did the same thing when we were evolving. As single cell organisms (bacteria) we had no memory, no sense of self - we just existed. As we grew, our biological "programming" became more advanced.

Thus Megadeus evolved a sense of self the same way humans did. This position is going to be challenged by me.

Megadeus are guided by a "memory core". Just as humans form our sense of who we are (self) with the use of our memories, so do Megadueses use their "memory core" to generate their own sense of self. The same principle applies to androids.

A "memory core" is a collection of memories - it could be from one person or several people. A good example of a Megadeus assimulating another person's memories into it's "memory core" would be Schwartzwald.

In this sense, the Megadeus sense of self wasn't born from their own experiences. It was born from the experience of their pilots.

It seems that a Megadeus, while not graced with built in capacity to generate a sense of self, was created with the ability to assimulate the memories of their pilots. Thus their pilots memories become the memories of the Megadeus.

There are many tactical reasons why the United States might want a Megadeus to have this skill - assimulating their pilot's memories - instead of having it's own sense of self. The memories of the more experienced pilots are encoded within the Megadeus. That being the case, new recruits could draw upon these memories via link-up. The existence of the cords that can plug into the spinal cord stems from the fact that the Megadeus and it's pilot's memories will assimulate and they will become one being. In short, they are two bodies sharing the exact same memories. Because of this, their sense of self is a shared sense of self. They share their sense of self with one another to have one sense of self.

This is advantageous for many reasons. It cuts down on recruitment costs - HA! No boot camp for these pilots!Just link them up and ship em' out! YEE HA!

Realistically, because of ethics, it is likely that the United States army would want their pilots to be able to draw upon the memories of retired or deceased pilots so that they could become perfect warriors.

This is where the big flaw comes in.

Let us recap what we know. Androids were built with the ability to form their own memories from their own perspective. Megadeus have no such ability - instead, they are designed capable of assimulating their pilots memory to pass on to their next pilot.

Memories aid a person in creating their sense of self - be they human or android. Megadeuses had no such ability to perceive, and thus they could not create their own memories.

With the memories of their pilot, they can to formulate a sense of self echoing that pilot. In short, a Megadeus can have a sense of self - but that sense of self is the pilot itself.

Moreover, a Megadeus can be several people at once because it can collect the memories of different pilots.

Thus a Megadeus is like a blank sheet of paper - and the memories of the pilots can give rise to a sense of self or several sense of selves. This is tantamount to writing several chapters on the blank sheet of paper that is a Megadeus.

Schwartzwald is one such pilot. The pilot of Big Duo who came before Schwartzwald judged him not guilty - and, due to that, Schwartzwald become the current designated pilot of Big Duo. In return for this favor, Schwartzwald's memories were assimulated into Big Duo. Big Duo's "memory core" is, like all Megadueses, designed to assimulate the memories of it's pilot.

Because his memories were assimulate into Big Duo, Schwartzwald gained a sort of immortality - minus the fact Big Duo Inferno blew up. His memories, the written record of his being, became part of a collection of memories which belonged to pilots that had come before him. Big Duo uses the memories of it's worthy pilots to help create the sense of self that guides it.

A Megadeus is it's first pilot. The first pilot is the principle part of the memory core. All pilots that come after are just along for the ride unless the Megadeus decides to assimulate their memories into it's own being for the sake of posperity.

The first pilots of the Megadeuses lived before the Event. We can accurately surmise that the pilots of the Megadeuses were the people from which the pilots living in Paradigm City were cloned.

In this sense, Big O is the Roger Smith who lived prior to the Event because the Megadeus assimulated his memories into it's own being before he snuffed it.

In effect ...

"But we're already one."

- Roger Smith, The Show Must Go On (Act 26)

Roger Smith before the event had his memories assimulated into Big O the same way Schwartzwald had his memories assimulated into Big Duo.

Big O is the "old", archetype Roger from before the Event. The Roger we see in the TV series is the "new" Roger - the Roger who was based on the archetype Roger.

Thus when Roger pilots Big O, he is really joining forces with his own Self from before the Event.

PSYCHOLOGICAL PARADOX! ERROR ERROR ERROR!

WHO WERE THE FIRST PILOTS?

In the beginning of their existence, a Megadeus enjoyed no sense of self. They were blank sheets of paper.

The first pilot who entered the cockpit of the Megadeus became the principle "memory core" of the Megadeus for all time. Other pilots and androids could have their memories assimulated as well, but in general the true core is the first pilot.

Accepting that the people in the TV series are clones from people who lived prior to forty years ago, we can surmise that the most likely pilots for each Megadeus - which became the Megadeus core personality themselves - are the same people who pilot them in modern day Paradigm.

In effect, the man who Roger was cloned from was the pilot of Big O.

The man whom Schwartzwald was cloned from (or, arguably his grandfather) was the man who piloted Big Duo. We know that Schwartzwald existed in the world before the Event because Roger the Wanderer remembered him writing newspapers about the "paradigm shifts".

Gordon Rosewater probably piloted Big Fau.

The woman Angel was based on (lieutenant whoever) probably piloted Big Venus. Alternatively, Gordon Rosewater could have piloted both Big O and Big Venus at different points.

Each of these Megadeuses chief memory core comes from each of these people.

Thus people are piloting themselves.
Demosthenes 05-15-2006 05:12 PM
So act 14 were all memories that roger was experiencing from the Old Roger via linkup? That seems to make sense according to your theory. But what if Roger is an Android, like he sees on the assembly line late in the series? He would have to have memories from somewhere, right? So where is there a direct memory connection between old and new theory?
ScionofDestiny 05-17-2006 07:11 PM
I know there was an image of Roger's being assembled mechanically, but I think logic, the scientific method, and good philosophical and symbolic reasons can help us conclude that he isn't an android.

WHY HE IS NOT AN ANDROID:

1. He would have to be a pretty authentic android if he was not an android- by his own admission, he bleeds. It was a very meaningful revelation for him he realized this.

2. We've seen Roger bleed blood. Every single android we see in the series uses oil to sustain themselves. Even Dorothy, a highly advanced, nearly human android, uses oil. Roger? We see him bleed when he got shot. It was blood. Every single android uses oil. Every single one.

3. We see that when Dorothy gets shot oil comes out (Allan Gabriel). We see when Roger gets shot, blood comes out (RD)

4. So, obviously, there is a fundamnetal structural diference between Roger and androids.

5. Bearing in mind that there is a structural difference, we can surmise that Roger isn't an android. At least, not in the traditional sense.

MOVING ONWARD: IS ROGER A SUPER ANDROID?

Let's take a careful look at this one.

There is a whole season's worth of hints, and some correlating evidence, that says that Roger is most likely a clone. The only problem is Gordon Rosewater possibly says he isn't.

So, because of a few comments from Gordon Rosewater, the theory that Roger is an android gains some ground.

But let's consider the following. Gordon Rosewater openly contradicts himself all the time. He mumbles. He babbles. He gets off subject.

A few contradictory statements saying that "everything is a lie" doesn't mean much in face of the overwhelming evidence that Roger is a clone.

Rather, I think people misunderstand Gordon when he says "everything is a lie" - just like I think we misunderstand a lot about Big O.

Our minds work too literally. We don't grasp the abstract meanings.

When Gordon says "everything is a lie", I think he is referring to Paradigm City in general. The whole city and what people mistakingly know it to be - that is a lie.

Paradigm City iis very Platonic. Plato himself accused our world - that we live today - of being a lie.

It's no passing glance to say that Big O is based on Platonic thought.

I don't know if anybody knows about the Truman Show, but it is also based on Platonism. This guy lives in a Dome where his life, from birth, has been part of the biggest reality show of all time. Thing is, he doesn't know it. The Dome is blocked by the sky. Everybody else in the Dome, who are hired actors, acts like everything is natural. The whole world revolves around him, and he doesn't know it.

As Truman learns "was anything the truth?" Truman, as he was about to escape the Dome, knows that everything he ever believed was a fictatious lie. His life was preordained and predestinied from birth - they manipulated him to get responses that would increase ratings. In short, he was preordained and predestinied.

Kind of like a certain batch of tomatoes we know.

Paradigm City is very, very much like the Truman Show. The Dome is one thing, accusing everything of being a lie is another, the constant alludings to "showtime", "playing roles", "acting", and the constant mysteries that seem to point out that the world itself is a lie all scream:

PLATONISM! PLATONISM! PLATONISM!

BTW: I think the makers of the Truman show acknowledged claims that their movie was based off Platonism.

WHOA - got way off track.

Anyway, there is a bunch of evidence that pins Roger as an android.

In ancient Greece (where Platonism originated), the term "android" meant a "man made by man". In many science-fictions based off Ancient Greek ideas, "android" is a term applied to genetic clones.

So yes, Roger, being a clone, is an android. He is a "man made by a man".

Clones and androids aren't so differerent. Roger was based off a person. Dorothy was based off a person. They were both "created" by humans rather than born naturally.

So yes, they are both androids.

But they are different a different kind of android. Roger is a clone and Dorothy is a robot.
SEELE 08 05-20-2006 04:28 AM
So the memories in Roger's head...are they implanted via a chip or through some unkown pyscho-biological mechanism? Are they memories the records of an android...a chip with the androids personality/memories stored on it, and implanted/interfaced with a human brain?

Also isn't Dorothy a gyenoid?
Demosthenes 05-20-2006 03:25 PM
Well, If he was cloned, his memories could have come from the Original Roger, exept that they were locked. The effect of unlocking some of these memories could have accually damaged part of rogers brain, making him autistic. Although, I have no idea, so could you, Scion, give me your opinion on that? You have talked aout roger's autism before. .
Travis Bickle 05-20-2006 04:30 PM
Back to before, Roger's house looks like the bank on 74th/75th (I don't remember what street exactly, but it was near Fairway) and Broadway. I think it's Apple Bank. Or was. I have to go there in a couple of weeks, so I'll take pictures.
ScionofDestiny 05-21-2006 01:17 PM
Well, let's analyze the meaning of memories, how they got in Roger's head, the validity (truth) of the memories, and, ultimately, why they cause Roger mental problems.

WHAT IS MEMORY?

In Paradigm City, the word can mean many things. In this case, we're talking about the chemical files in the human brain and what I suppose is probably the RAM or electric files in an androids head.

Biologically, the ability to form memories can occur fairly early in evolution. Certain white blood cells called "memory cells" encode the "data" for certain Pathogens so that next time it enters the body, they'll be able to isolate it quicker. It's basically the cornerstone in building up an immunity.

Culturally, memories serve a similar purpose. Memories help us make schemas, archetypes, images, and other identifiers for recognizing any given object or idea and then categorizing it - human or animal, living or dead, TV or sapient being, and reality and dream. Our memories most likely exist for the purpose of enhancing our chances for survival.

A memory, then, plays a key role in perception. How we perceive the world around us. A good example is a myth from history. There is a legend that when Columbus was sailing toward South America, the Indians on the island he was sailing to couldn't see his ship. This was because they had lived their whole lives (for many generations) on this island and had always been obliged to see waves rather than ships. Their memories had no schema for identifying a ship.

Another Example: In my case ... (see below)

"I perceive a keyboard and remember that by pressing a certain sequence of keys I can create words that suit my explanatory purposes."

This myth about the Indians and Columbus does have some loopholes in my book, but many qualified scientists can believe it. Bearing that in mind, let's move on.

HOW ROGER GOT THOSE MEMORIES INSIDE HIS HEAD

I have two theories. Either the data (memory) is in the bar code that is shining toward Roger's retina (unlikely but somewhat cool) or Gordon Rosewater had an alternate way of injecting memories - like the holograms around the Tomato Children of the world burning.

In the allegory of the cave, the people (us) live in a world without a sun - in a dark cave of ignorance. They are chained to a wall and stare at shadows being cast of the images on the wall, which they are tricked into thinking is reality. The Tomato children scene seems to represent that. They are staring at these images from before forty years ago and then think it is reality - which may or may not be true considering how cryptic Gordon Rosewater is.

Either way, the Memories before forty years ago get planted into the part of his brain that deals with memory. Whether it is the bar code that contains the data or simply repeatedly staring at the images in a vegetative state, these memories get inside their head. They now have the memories.

VALIDITY OF THESE MEMORIES

We can't be sure if these images from over forty years ago are true or fake. If we interpret the allegory of the cave literally, then yes, they certainly are. Shows don't always follow their archetypes/symbols literally though.

So, ultimatlely whether or not those images of destruction are true can't be determined. I think that any memory Roger had of piloting Big O are true though, because they may or may not have come directly from Big O.

Thus Roger has two distinct sources of memory that are not his own - Big O (Old Roger) and Gordon's experiments. While one may have difficulty noting the distinction, I have to say that the overall spirit of the images shown by Gordon Rosewater and Big O are different. With Gordon Rosewater, all we see is fires, Megadeuses, and doom to some city or another (probably New York). With Big O, we see in fighting techniques and battle fields, which are actually helpful to Roger, whereas the other memories (Gordon's) can be disruptive and confusing.

WHY DO THESE MEMORIES, TRUE OR FALSE, CAUSE ROGER SO MUCH TROUBLE?

Well, let's take another look at what memory is supposed to do. In layman's terms, it basically records subjects and objects so we can identify them and their uses (to suit our personal purposes) for later use or recognition. It is certainly a lot easier than learning everything all over again.

When Roger was implanted with memories of over forty years ago, be they from Big O or Gordon Rosewater, he undoubtedly received memories which he could not identify with in his own time. That is, he saw things which no longer exist.

EXAMPLE: Look at Roger the Wanderer. In the world Roger makes, he sees the sun. And yet, he has never, ever, even once seen the sun is his reality. He makes a point of it! Everyone does! They all won't shut up and stop whining about how the sun hasn't risen ever once in forty years.

And yet, he has a memory schema (and fairly accurate by our standards) of what the sun would look like. Obviously this particular schema was given to him by Big O or Gordon Rosewater (personally, I'd say Big O since Gordon has a penchant for delivering images of gloom and doom - he could never reveal something as pleasant as sunlight. Also, in Plato's Republic, the sun is seen as the ultimate Form of Good - which would probably lie with Big O rather than Gordon.

Keeping that in mind, we can trust that some of Roger's memories have to be true. Logically, if the sun is a true memory then some of the other things must be true as well. I would say that Roger's memories of New York City/Paradigm are pretty accurate because I have been to New York City and have observed it looks and feels pretty much as he described it in Act 14.

Now why did these memories cause Roger so much trouble?

Since there were some memories of things which no longer existed in Roger's time (the sun, no domes over rich sections), he can't always reconcile his memories of the world before Paradigm with the present world.

Take Act 14 for example - confronted with memories that he "wasn't familar with", Roger was forced to reframe Paradigm City in an alternate history (or past) where he could reconcile images of the sun, among other things, in an enviroment where they didn't conflict. Thus "New Paradigm" - which we see in Act 14 - is a mix between New York City and Paradigm City.

Now, how can we know that? What if it is just all New York?

Well, while it is possible that Dorothy, Beck, and all these other people Roger knew existed prior to forty years ago, you have to admit that some of the scenes Roger envisioned look shockingly similar to Paradigm City. Obviously, he was letting memories from one time slide into another to create New Paradigm.

CONCLUSION - Roger has memories of things which don't fit in with who or where he is. In his own admission "I forgot them willingly".

When he says that, it is likely Roger means he used a technique called "repression" to "forget" memories that are harmful to him. Thus Roger remembers the sun, but he represses that memory (among other memories) because it doesn't "fit in" with his modern memories of what Paradigm City is.

Problem with repression is that times of stress can often reawaken the repressed memories.

Hence, while Roger is losing the battle in Act 14, the memories begin to resurface FULL BLAST - memories of modern reality and past possible history.

With memories of a time that the former him existed in clashing with memories of the him of now, Roger is often hard-pressed to keep his realities in order - among other things.

And that is why memories cause him so much trouble. And that is why he forgot them willingly.

SECOND, ULTIMATE CONCLUSION - Roger repressed his memories of over forty years ago because they interfered with his Self Concept - basically a schema everyone has for identifying with ourselves instead of the world. When Roger imagined the world differently, he imagined his place within it differently.

This is why I generally argue more for his shizophrenia that autism.

TWO MORE THINGS - IS ROGER REALLY A WANDERER IN THE PAST?

I can say with some confidence that Roger isn't a Wanderer in the past or the present. Roger probably just reconstructed himself that way, temporarily, to reflect his damaged Self Concept.

After all, if Roger really had been a homeless wanderer forty years before, then how could he have piloted Big O? Rather, since I view New Paradigm (he saw the title of the city on a newspaper in the Speakeasy in Act 14) as Roger's mix between Paradigm City memories and New York City memories, I would say that Roger the Wanderer is the only Roger that can exist in a city like that. Elsewhere, he would probably be a Major (New York, United States) or a Negotiator (Paradigm City).

THE SECOND THING:

While Roger the Wanderer may paint Roger as suffering from multiple personality disorder (as a result of his conflicting memories), we can safely deduce that isn't the case. He does have memories of his old self (albiet in a broken form) as Roger the Wanderer. In multiple personality disorder, no personality would have memories of a different personality.

Is Roger autistic? Possibly, but Roger the Major (from before forty years ago) probably isn't. I don't know if the Military Police has relaxed it's standards or not, but the United States Military doesn't accept people who have autisim. They (including me) wouldn't operate well to new circumstances or pressure offered by army life.

I say this because schizos retain memories of who they are (thus they don't have multiple personalities) but they often reframe them and see things in times and places they shouldn't. When Roger should see a cockpit, he sees a alternate world. When Roger should see a window, he sees a city in flames - and so on and so forth.
Alek 05-21-2006 02:03 PM
Okay, after watching the series again (and having not read the manga) I've got a theory that's similar but not quite what's been presented here. I'm interested in what the reaction is from those who have studied it undoubtedly more careful than I.

At some point, mankind, having developed technologically, comes across the electrical eels, either naturally or through their own meddling with science. The eels are utterly destructive and mankind is on the verge of being wiped out. The rich flee undergorund, building cities there. The poor are left on the surfce of the earth.

Now- bear with me- an alien life form, a higher intelligence, vistis earth and takes pity on the humans. They appear so powerful as to be like Gods. They give to the humans the ability to defeat the eel creatures- the megadeuces! The ability to create the bigs are distributed freely.

Now the aliens aren't completely clueless. The bigs have an innate intelligence, like an advanced car alarm. A core that is not truly understood by the humans even theough they can build them. The Megadeuces only work for certain humans posessing a certain nobility, who will not use the bigs for destruction. "Not Guilty." Dominues. Two of the dominueses are Roger Smith and Angel.

But Roger sold out. He made a deal with a tycoon, Rosewater, to allow themselves to be cloned. And Rosewater's father, an obsessed scientist, made clones. At first they were unsucessful, but in time, using Roger Smith for experimentation, he learned the secrets, made succesful clones. Tomatoes. And with the clones, his son "bypassed" the security locks on the bigs. And he used the bigs to take control of the cities. Eventually the world was divided up into the cities, controled by Rosewater, and the rebelling rural areas, the Union. They Union eventually manages to steal the secrets of the clones through Angel, who sold out to them the same way Roger sold out to Rosewater. They respond with great anger and vengeance, and the war between the two destroyed the world.

The aliens watched with sorrow. They had the dna and the ability to reconstitute the human race. But they were unsure of whether the human race deserved to be reconstituted. So they created a large scale stage, and are at the time of the series using it to examine humanity, determine whether it can rise from its sins or whether history would only be repeated if it were given a second chance.
ScionofDestiny 05-21-2006 04:29 PM
I'm going to be honest and confess that I'm not sure if your being serious or not. I was wondering about the giant eels until I remembered Electric City.

Um . . . imaginative, but where on earth are you getting the aliens from? Also, "selling out" seems extremely, very, ridiculously out of character for Roger in whatever world he lives in. Also, what would be the point in cloning himself? I am more inclined to think:

1. There are no aliens - and there never were.

2. There was a war - there always was. Probably an apocalyptic war around the area of WWIII.

3. The giant, electric eels are probably isolated cases of biological weapons for what could be called World War III - probably not widespread enemies of the human race.

4. Assuming there were aliens, and they were so compassionate, why the hell wouldn't they just deal with the Bigs directly.

5. Megadeuses are inventions of mankind - not aliens - and are cited out as such many times. Moreover, wouldn't mankind and/or androids have some scattered recollection of seeing alien lifefroms?

6. "Power of God - Wielded by Man" is probably an allegory for the awseome power of the Megadeuses. I won't be specific, but think of Big Venus, Big O, Big Fau, and Big Duo Inferno - very godly, as humans consider such things. In the comic book series, Schwartzwald goes so far as to call them "gods in themselves".

7. Considering Act 14, it seems that Roger was an officer in the United States (or some other Western country) Military. I'm going off United States because Paradigm City is based on New York City.

8. Big O is "built around" Plato's Republic (philosophical-politcal-spiritual), Metropolis (science fiction movie), and Abrahamic religion (spiritual-ethics-other) - none of these have aliens, but all of them mention the failures of mankind well and often.

9. I have opted for Paradigm City being an inter-reality generated by quantum technology - that is, an alternate universe seperated from our world by a giant dome in which quantum technology gives way to a set of "Natural Laws" - these laws may or may not be similar or identical to the laws of our own reality (which are cited out in both religious texts and science).
SEELE 08 05-21-2006 05:18 PM
I've always assumed WWIII type war took place as well, but in an alternate type reality where the USSR never disintagrated and the cold war continued into a not-so-cold-war. Paradigmn city is the stronghold of what's left of capitalism (arguebly not at it's best) and the Union is the remainder of communism that is based in the place Angel calls Delphi. Many of the Union agents we see, with the exepctions of Angel and Alan, are European. It seems that the USSR expanded to take over parts of Western Europe as one agent was of French origin.
Alek 05-21-2006 05:29 PM
"God' and "The power of God" is a theme used often in the series. God can either be actual God or a power so far above humanity it appears to be *a* God. If humanity had developed the technology naturally, it wouldn't appear to be godlike.

It would make sense, given the circumstances, that the problems result in humanity being given more power than it is ready for. And that power would then have to come from a non-human source. Someone had to build the stage that encompasses the city, and no human in the series seemed to know about the stage until Swartzvald's ghost found it on the flying big.

During the second eel attack when the eels regrew their heads, Roger had a flashback to the Megadeuces fighting the eels, before he transformed Big O to the "second stage." Thus, the idea that the megadeuces were initially created or given to fight the electric monsters, and later were misued into a war that desroyed the earth.

During the last epsiode, Roger mentioned the idea that he had purposefully lost his memory, that he had done something that he was ashamed of, but has moved past that and has become a negotiator. Atonement. Then there's the picture of Rosewater and Roger shaking hands, and Rosewater's mention of the deal he made with Roger. Tying into the tomatoes, the theory is that Roger made a deal with Rosewater, allowing himself to be cloned (he is not a tomato, but he still carries guilt and is traumatized over the incident) and thus overriding the programming that acts as a security device for the bigs. At some point Big O refused to function for Roger, and the theory is that happened because of the residual effects of Roger's betrayal.
Roger_Smith 05-23-2006 09:28 AM
I think that Roger is definitely a human being. But in Act 26 it is revealed that Roger is not one of the tomato, there's also a photo of him shaking hands with gordon during the construction of paradigm city. The thing is that he has also lost his memories but he doesn't look a day older ! I think that konaka let some clues about the true identity of Roger. We have to take the memories he has in Act 13 when we see Paradigm in flames with Big O/Duo/Fau destroying all in their way, and those memories come back in some Act 22(Hydra I think) when we see a lot of Big O and then Roger in a "future army" uniform. And in Act 26 we see the God-like Big Venus. I think that Big Venus destroy the world and erase the memories of the people. But for Roger it's an exception and it's in the memory where roger pilots big o in a soldier unifor the key is. I think that paradigm send a lot Big to combat the Big Venus and Roger was probably one of the soldiers who pilots the robots (if they were of course) and something happened to Roger and after that there's a big blank in the scenario, but maybe the season 3 can explain that. but there is also a tricky memory in Act 4 ! When Roger wakes up in the arms of a women who strongly ressemble to Dorothy and say "Ma... !". I don't know who is really that women but we will never see that women again.
Dangerous 05-23-2006 10:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Roger_Smith
there's also a photo of him shaking hands with gordon during the construction of paradigm city.
Yes, go to the "post your funny Big O pictures" thread at the last page to see what I did to Roger and Gordon. hehehe Happy They are both clowns !

What you said about Roger is very interesting. Roger got flashbacks at some moments accross the acts. We could see him with a military police uniform. As in act 14 we see him "young", like now, like Angel too. Both Angel and Roger had the same faces in that act. Roger had a flashback of the past, and could control his dream. It was PC 40 years ago, without the domes. Maybe more than 40 years because to build the domes I don't know how many time we need. We could see a photograph of Roger and Gordon in front of the construction of the domes. It was 40 years ago. But Roger had already his negociator suit. Thus he was not a military police detective. What happened between the time he was a detective and the time he was a negociator ? How many time is there between those two moments ? He was a negociator when he took a photo with Gordon R.
The scenario of 40 years ago and now is nearly the same. Except that Angel is the right hand of Roger 40 years ago, and his driver, and now she is the secretary of Alex Rosewater.