Unoffical Bleach discussion

Green_Bird 04-02-2006 09:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Umino
quote:
Originally posted by Green_Bird
You seem to be missing the point. Yes....it is a kids show, IN JAPAN....but here, it would be consitered an older Teen material. ...


No, you seem to be missing the point. It's a series made for CHILDREN. It doesn't what country it's in, IT'S A KID SHOW. It doesn't matter how many boobies, violence, gore, or homosexuals there is in Bleach, IT'S A KID SHOW. Just because the content in the series may be viewed as a bit mature, doesn't mean the series is mature.

Dragon Ball Z has a "Teen Rating" on it's DVDs, but it's still a children series. Yes, we see Freeza get sliced in half. Yes, we see Gohan's manhood. Yes, we see Bulma topless, it's still a kid's show. The plot and story are made for CHILDREN. Just like with Bleach. Sailor Moon has homosexual themes, nudity, and violence but it's still a series made for little girls.


True, true....But still....a normal parent wouldn't usualy let their kids watch that stuff. May I remind you the US is a bunch of prudes on what they allow their kids to watch and what they won't alow them to watch. So anime that is made for Japanese kids wouldn't pass for kid shows here. So they're always rated higher then the age group that they're targeted for....that is unless they put out the TV edited, Dub.DVDs. That's the point I'm trying to get acrossed.

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You have to look at it this way. America has diffrent standers for shows (not to mention cartoons as a whole) then Japan does. Here in the US Cartoons are consited wholesom family entertainment with out blood, killing, nudity, sexual situations, and drinking, where the good guys always win.


The Simpsons is labeled as a series for the Families, yet that has nudity, drinking, violence, and sexual situations. Lots of children cartoons have the themes stated above. In almost every Diseny movie someone dies, violently too. There's alot of nudity in shows like Billy and Mandy, Dexter's Lab, and lots of other series that air on Cartoon Network.


The Simpsons may be listed as a family show. But there will still be some people out there who would dissagree on the matter. Some people's views are diffrent then others where as one family might let their 5 year old watch the show, and the other might sheld it from them until they're 12 or something.

The Disney movie point makes sence....but do you actually see Bambi's mother get shot by the hunter? No. Anime on the other hand almost always shows the event leading up to the character's death straight foward insted of working their way around it.

As for the other shows that CN plays. There's rarely any nudity above butts and fig leaf/cencer bar covered privates. Anime however has boobs.....And god forbid that boobs be shown in cartoons Roll Eyes

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In Japan, pre-teens are alot more mature, so it's the complete opposite


Says who?

plain facts....

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But if you trace the history of animation back to the early Disney days. Cartoons were not made for kids. Heck, Mickey Mouse drunk beer and smoked and Minnie had panty shots for gosh sakes.


Yes, because drinking and panty shots are really X-rated material. Roll Eyes


Who said they were x-rated? I didn't. Maybe they were when the cartoons came out in the 30s, but not now. But what I was trying to get across was that cartoons were not always made for kids.

I know that everyone has their own opinion and I respect that, you may not like Bleach, but I and some other people here do. I'm just trying to point out facts here Oh Well .

quote:
Originally posted by Gato Gurl914
i'm a big fan of the manga, and am personally so very exicted. any news on when it's supposed to premeir?

It just said sometime in the fall.....
David Ryder 04-02-2006 09:43 PM
why is everytime there's a thread like this, the whole BS about japanese kids/people being more mature and well mannered and the west is some sort of immoral and barbaric society, sorry to say but a bold face and flat ignorant statment like that is laughable. sorry to go off topic like that but I'm getting kind of tired of crap like that.

Back on topic. If any word on the US cast comes up do please post it here.
Sharpshooter005 04-02-2006 10:00 PM
quote:
plain facts....


Um...facts are supported by evidence, which I'm not seeing an overwhelming amount of.

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why is everytime there's a thread like this, the whole BS about japanese kids/people being more mature and well mannered and the west is some sort of immoral and barbaric society,


The orient has always had this sort of exotic vibe going for it. It's always been this mysterious far off land with alot of spice that you wanted to find trade routes to.

Then again that really has nothing to do with this, at all. Because what fuels it on the internet is when people have some gripe with society, and form this fevered delusion that Japan (it works with any other location, it just happens alot with Japan on the internet) is somehow perfect and completely different in every way.

Then you realize they're screwy in their own ways, the same way EVERY CULTURE, ANYWHERE, THROUGHOUT HISTORY IS. And the only reason the flaws are more apparent in your surroundings is because you're exposed to them every day. It's not that imperfections don't exist anywhere else, it's just that you're not there to be surrounded by them.

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Anime on the other hand almost always shows the event leading up to the character's death straight foward insted of working their way around it.


Thats pretty funny. Everyone's always saying the way the death of Bambi's mother is handled actually is why it has such an impact on the viewer, and now here its being used to somehow prove we're collectively "broken" as a culture. Or whatever the point we're all apparently dancing around here is.

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But what I was trying to get across was that cartoons were not always made for kids.


Maybe not specifically (though I'm willing to say even thats debatable), but for the most part, yes, mainstream animation usually has followed the pattern of zany animals and their madcap hijinks. And other things of that nature.

Which I suppose could be construed as being "for kids". Though half the stuff in Rocky and Bullwinkle would go over some kid's head unless you explained to them what the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam is.

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I to would like to see these "facts".


I should probably say, the "where are these 'facts' " comment is sort of a loaded one, since it's impossible to really pull that one off. "Maturity" is an incredibly broad term. You can be highly mature in some aspects, and then wildly immature in others. So yeah, you can see how the statement makes less and less sense.
X Prime 04-02-2006 10:19 PM
So, ah... which high deity aside from myself do I have to petition with virgin sacrifices to get Sharp modded on merit?

Joking aside, I was basically beaten to the punch on everything Gaddes and Sharp just said here. Well done.

---

They showed Roy Mustang's eye being taken out...? Oh wait... Unless of course you construe an eye being shot out as worse than death.

Though it appears American comics these days have zero problem ripping Spidey's eye out by hand.
David Ryder 04-02-2006 10:22 PM
quote:
Um...facts are supported by evidence, which I'm not seeing an overwhelming amount of.


Yeah gonna have to side with sharp on this one, I to would like to see these "facts".

It's also pretty funny sharp, how they use the word American's in a tone, which basically comes across as "I've reach some sort of enlightenment by watching anime and I can use japanese words "so america is teh sux!!!! r0X!!"

It's crap like this that makes anime fandom kinda of pathetic. And this is coming from an anime fan (me).
Travis Bickle 04-03-2006 01:35 AM
I skimmed the thread (ignoring the ignorant ZOMG WHY DO YOU DISS AMERICA/GO SHARP chit chat), so I'm just going to put my two cents in here:

It's a well known fact that the rating system for both video games and movies (the Japanese version of the ESRB and the MPAA, respectively) are much tamer than that of what we have. Meaning that, what would be rated R here (in some cases), children would be able to go into theaters and see it without an adult present. I know that Fight Club, the Terminator and the Usual Suspects were rated PG-12 in Japan, and some of the Pokemon movies were rated the same hting (as opposed to R-15).

Now, so far, this entire thread was spent trying to rip Green_Bird a new one. Why? Well, some of us are totally biased when it comes to anime. Some like their silly magical girl porno, and others like their emo mecha anime titles. Whatever. However, there's really no reason to lash out against someone due to personal likes and dislikes over a cartoon. Politics? Maybe. Religion? Debatable. However, we're talking about something created in the minds of the Japanese and outsourced to Korea. No big deal there.

Also, I have to say that, after watching quite a few fansubs of Bleach, it's better than a lot of titles from the past and present.
X Prime 04-03-2006 01:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Cerpin Taxt
I skimmed the thread (ignoring the ignorant ZOMG WHY DO YOU DISS AMERICA/GO SHARP chit chat), so I'm just going to put my two cents in here:

It's a well known fact that the rating system for both video games and movies (the Japanese version of the ESRB and the MPAA, respectively) are much tamer than that of what we have. Meaning that, what would be rated R here (in some cases), children would be able to go into theaters and see it without an adult present. I know that Fight Club, the Terminator and the Usual Suspects were rated PG-12 in Japan, and some of the Pokemon movies were rated the same hting (as opposed to R-15).


Terminator was rated R-15 in Japan.

Don't make me get on AIM and beat you with the Logic Stick again. Heh.

Second, I'd point out that a different rating system technically doesn't support what Green Bird says about the maturity thing (and don't even try to beat around the bush and say you weren't referring to that). Unless of course you're somehow going to claim that what an industry oversight committee probably run by middle-aged plus people sets as a rating scale somehow reflects on the teenage population...

I think we can all agree that when it's put into that context, whatever point you were trying to make there instantly fails.
David Ryder 04-03-2006 02:00 AM
No one is trying to "rip green bird a new one", I just get tired of japanophile BS that pops up from time to time in threads like this. I didn't notice anything ignorant about this thread thus far.
Sharpshooter005 04-03-2006 02:12 AM
quote:
GO SHARP


Okay I'll try to settle this since yeah, I've noticed it too.

The thing is..I haven't had an original thought in about a year and a half. Everytime we do this "japanophile" (I'm not even sure if thats a word) thing, I launch into the same prefabricated argument. That they don't really take to alot of contemporary culture, so they very self-conciously latch onto another one. It's basically just a snide, condescending quasi ad-hominem that I've dressed up so it sounds all credible in the fact that it's wordy. Maybe it's right, thats not the point.

Yes it ruins threads, yes I'm sorry for it. Yes I realize it's going to happen again, and I'm sorry for that also.

That aside, I didn't really mean to rip anyone a new anything. And also I wasn't talking about ratings systems at all, but rather this one generalized assertation about some nebulous standard of "morality"

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theres still no word on what studio and VAs they're going to use for the dubbing....


Is it out on dvd? Because if it is, then...whatever studio and VAs did the dvd will be whats shown on AS.
X Prime 04-03-2006 02:18 AM
...This is the Internet. Ad hominem is fair game here, interestingly enough.

And better a hack who happens to spout gold than one that spouts crap. The first is almost frigging impossible to find.
David Ryder 04-03-2006 02:28 AM
Alrighty, lets just get back on topic, and just forget this happened. Stuff happens, nothing to worry about. I'm pretty sure Ocean is going to be doing the dub for this, big name title like InuYasha, yeah pretty sure Ocean's doing it.
Travis Bickle 04-03-2006 10:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by X Prime
Terminator was rated R-15 in Japan.


Meh...Terminator 3 was rated PG-12. It was the most violent of the three.

quote:
Originally posted by X Prime
Second, I'd point out that a different rating system technically doesn't support what Green Bird says about the maturity thing (and don't even try to beat around the bush and say you weren't referring to that). Unless of course you're somehow going to claim that what an industry oversight committee probably run by middle-aged plus people sets as a rating scale somehow reflects on the teenage population...


A different rating system in Japan from the one we have proves the fact that the Japanese are ("legally") exposed to more mature content at an earlier age. The fact that you were allowed to see the movie Gummo at age 12 in Japan with no adult accompanying you, and in America you have to be 17 or Older to at do such a thing (since the original release here was NC-17) means that yes, the Japanese do have different standards than those of the US. And it's safe to reason that, with the exposure to this content at earlier ages (yes, even such media like the movies influence people), they could possibly more mature at earlier ages. Not to mention the fact that, some of the things that are even too taboo for us to even look at (take cartoon porn, for example) are available to ALL AGES. Different standards and customs bring different levels of maturity at different ages in many cultures. You can't really argue that.

quote:
Originally posted by X Prime
Don't make me get on AIM and beat you with the Logic Stick again. Heh.


quote:
Originally posted by X Prime
I think we can all agree that when it's put into that context, whatever point you were trying to make there instantly fails.


You really make me sick. Just because you have a knack for rhetoric and an extreme hatred towards everyone and everything doesn't give you the right to shut someone out of a discussion.
Tickle Tickle 04-03-2006 02:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Green_Bird
True, true....But still....a normal parent wouldn't usualy let their kids watch that stuff. May I remind you the US is a bunch of prudes on what they allow their kids to watch and what they won't alow them to watch. So anime that is made for Japanese kids wouldn't pass for kid shows here. So they're always rated higher then the age group that they're targeted for....that is unless they put out the TV edited, Dub.DVDs. That's the point I'm trying to get acrossed


Who says that Japanese parents aren't stict about what their kids watch? Lots of Go Nagai's books were publically burned because they didn't want their children to read books insulting the school system, girls getting stripped naked, or the usual Go Nagai perverted humor. Recently a parent (or parents, can't really remeber) complained about a sex scene/hinted sex scene in Gundam SEED.

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The Simpsons may be listed as a family show. But there will still be some people out there who would dissagree on the matter


It doesn't change the fact it's a family series. Lots of Sailor Moon fans claim Sailor Moon is a series aimed at teens or adults, but the fact of the matter is, it's a series for little Japanese girls. It's like with the Batman movies, aimed at kids, but are rated PG-13.

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The Disney movie point makes sence....but do you actually see Bambi's mother get shot by the hunter? No. Anime on the other hand almost always shows the event leading up to the character's death straight foward insted of working their way around it.


No, we don't see Bambi's mother get shot but what about other movies? Both Maleficent (as a dragon however) and Ursula were stabbed. Or what about the Witch from Snow White getting crashed to by a rock? Or what about Anatasia? (I know that's not Disney but still.) Rasputin problemly has one of the most horric looking deaths in animation. Most deaths in CHIDLREN'S anime usually don't get too violent, or hinted as being graphic. The only children series I can think of with violent deaths would be older stuff. (Which was pretty violent)

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As for the other shows that CN plays. There's rarely any nudity above butts and fig leaf/cencer bar covered privates. Anime however has boobs.....And god forbid that boobs be shown in cartoons Roll Eyes


Even without breats being shown, most Cartoon has a bit of nudity wouldn't you say? Yes it's mainly for comedical purposes, but nudity's nudity.

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plain facts....


Whatever, I still call bull on this one.

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I know that everyone has their own opinion and I respect that, you may not like Bleach, but I and some other people here do. I'm just trying to point out facts here Oh Well .


What facts? That Japanese children are so much more intelligant, and mature than us? Roll Eyes

I never said I didn't like Bleach (not a huge fan of the series, or anything) I just don't like the fact Bleach (or Inuyasha for that matter) gets to go on Adult Swim yet Yu Yu Hakusho, and Kenshin have to stay on Toonami. They're all children series, so if they air anywhere on Cartoon Network it should be Toonami only.
David Ryder 04-03-2006 02:30 PM
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I just don't like the fact Bleach (or Inuyasha for that matter) gets to go on Adult Swim yet Yu Yu Hakusho, and Kenshin have to stay on Toonami.


I gotta agree with ya on that one, Kenshin should have been on AS, no question's asked. I think in episode 68 or 69
spoiler (highlight to read):
(which ever epsiode shishio and Yumi die)
that episode was totally destoryed. I think they cut out over 8 mins of footage total and like 78 edits.
Travis Bickle 04-03-2006 02:41 PM
A lot of the things on television that are edited out on a regular basis flow freely on regular Japanese television. That's a fact. I'll back that up by pulling documents out of my ass from the Museum of Television and Radio if need be about Standards and Practices overseas.

So, with different standards in mainstream media bring different social standards. That's pretty much a given. The 5 year olds here are used to the Wiggles or whatever, whereas the 5 year olds in Japan could be used to (insert generic cutesy anime here), which has a few vague drinking references, a gun every once and a while, and a charachter that smokes. I'll go on record as calling that a fact without backing that up, seeing as I don't watch American children's television, let alone Japanese children's televison. The main idea is though, that, within a society such as Japan, the people there are exposed to more mature content at an earlier age. Here, we have organizations such as the FCC that prevent us from viewing such things. Of course, there's always parental neglagence and overall bad influence that you have to factor in every so often (I remember seeing Rambo at age 3), but the idea that we've been shielded from such content makes the difference of maturity between American and Japanese children vary.

Is it for the greater good? One can debate that, but it exists.

As for different anime shows? I like Yu Yu Hakusho (I have the series on DVD, and a Hiei shirt somewhere in the back of my closet). Kenshin was indeed a good show. However, Anime isn't really meant to be watched on TV. You know it's going to be edited and screwed with, so you might as well either buy it or pirate it.
X Prime 04-03-2006 03:31 PM
The problem is that you're making a not necessarily valid assumption. By your logic, I can claim that playing multiple games rated M at age 9 somehow makes me more mature than the average American 9 year old. That makes absolutely no sense, the correlation is not clear-cut and proven by any reputable psychological experiment that I know of. Hell, I could in fact claim I would suffer deranged notions of maturity from such early exposure, which the younger brain would not fully comprehend, therefore defeating your conjecture from the get-go since such a suggestion is not exactly outlandish by any means.

This is why you do not try to make such correlations. They fail immediately from any sort of objective standpoint, and have legions of pitfalls.

Look, I don't have a problem with you. I have a problem with your argument, which takes a leap of logic. I can't exactly claim I'm correct here, but neither can you or anyone else on this topic. However, I can damn well say you're probably not correct.
Travis Bickle 04-03-2006 05:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by X Prime
The problem is that you're making a not necessarily valid assumption. By your logic, I can claim that playing multiple games rated M at age 9 somehow makes me more mature than the average American 9 year old. That makes absolutely no sense, the correlation is not clear-cut and proven by any reputable psychological experiment that I know of. Hell, I could in fact claim I would suffer deranged notions of maturity from such early exposure, which the younger brain would not fully comprehend, therefore defeating your conjecture from the get-go since such a suggestion is not exactly outlandish by any means.


Though the CERO system is pretty much dead-on with the ESRB, it is still safe to make assumptions that, based on the fact that what is allowed on NETWORK TELEVISION in Japan heavily differs from what we let by in America, Japan has different standards than we do, which greatly influence its people.

Take this for example: Who would be more mature at an earlier age? A kid in a broken home with a drug-addicted mother in a bad neighborhood, or a kid living in the rich suburbs with his wealthy nuclear family, being pampered and spoiled with everything and not really getting a taste of the real world? If you grow up in the harsh, gritty, no-holds-barred reality instead of a facade, you're more than likely to come to terms with reality and your own maturity.

Now, this is an extreme example, but look at it this way: Japan still allows advertisements for cigarettes on tv. On One Piece, they had guns, cigarettes, and imitatable violence. In America, Cigarette ads are banned from television (have been since before the second World War, if I'm not mistaken). And look what happened to One Piece. Hell, one of the higher ups for 4Kids said that it was heavily edited due to Fox Standards and Practices, which are tailor-fit to suit the rules ste by the FCC. With these, we're shielding the youth from both corruption and knowledge. In Japan, this crap is fair game. The American Youth are somewhat ignorant towards these things, as opposed to the Japanese who see them as commonplace. Would that bring maturity? Oh, lord yeah.
X Prime 04-03-2006 06:24 PM
*Sighs, gets back to work*

You're missing the point. I'm simply saying that regardless of what you're saying here, you're making a leap of logic and calling it truth. It's not truth, it's an assumption that doesn't fully work.

Your home example... Um, I can't buy it. It may come as a surprise to you, but the first kid is probably at greater risk for legions of mental disorders... probably conduct disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, mental retardation, et cetera off the top of my head. Socioeconomic status is directly linked to forms of the disorders I listed.

On the flip side, I could see the rich kid developing one hell of a dependence disorder... If we consider the listed disorders to be an indication of failure to mature mentally, then it's hard to say for sure who'll win.

The cigarette ads... man, that doesn't really work for good reasons. One, it's pretty known that the cigarette ads and all references were axed because, hey, kids are impressionable and the things are a health nightmare. Two, they're already probably exposed to cigarettes by parents or friends of parents if stats are any indication, so there's no real loss there. Then there's kids doing all this on their own...

I'm perfectly willing to end this. This will be endless otherwise.
Generalissimo D 04-03-2006 06:30 PM
....

I'm sorry, you f***ers are getting all hot and bothered in a Bleach thread?

Dear Me.
Travis Bickle 04-03-2006 06:37 PM
First off, cigarette ads were going to be brought back to TV. However, the FCC totally blocked it and threatened networks with massive fines if such a thing were to happen. Next.

We went over this on AIM, where I pretty much proved my point to you, but since you have to have the last laugh, you went and posted (when I asked you not to, so we can end this discussion).

Over AIM, you went on tangents that didn't pertain to the discussion at all. Mental disorders have NOTHING to do with what we're discussing, even in the slightest. You use somewhat online "bullying" tactics that nobody cares about in order to try and get your point across. Though I am somewhat familiar with those, I no longer have interest in such a thing, with this being the internet and all.

The idea of the thread was to announce Bleach coming to Adult Swim. Green_Bird innocently posted this, with NO intention whatsoever of getting into a heated argument such as this one. However, Umino, in a terribly asinine manner, decided to pick her apart, and everyone else decided to join in, thus making Green_Bird not feel wanted here, which is inexcusable. I put my two cents in because I felt that was wrong.

Every topic ends up being either an argument or a bad, smug joke by Sharpshooter and nothing more. Today, we have an amalgamation of the two. If I had any say, I'd either lock the topic, or just wipe everything and leave the news article. But what do I know?

-Scott