The mystery of Dorothy and the spider robots

DorothyFan1 02-06-2006 11:36 PM
I'd like to discuss this small mystery because I seem to be stuck on this scene from Act 23? "Twisted Memories". There's something about this scene that continues to elude me...and it's when the spider robots invade Roger Smith's mansion to kidnap Dorothy.

The problem is this...what exactly is Dorothy doing? Nothing. She lets the spider robots succeed in kidnapping her. She didn't even lift a finger to fight them from attempting to take her. And just before they jettison off with her...she sees Roger Smith for the last time (until they're reunited in Act 26) and then she says the strangest thing..."I'm not like you, Roger Smith". What did Dorothy mean by this?

Can somebody elaberate on this entire sequence and tell me what Dorothy says when she first saw them? There was something significant in what she said..that may hold the key to understanding not only Paradigm City...but maybe the reasoning behind the entire series. Can anybody help me out on this one? Because I'm still stuck on explaining Dorothy's mysterious inaction against the spider robots from kidnapping her.
Spoderman 02-07-2006 12:25 AM
Remember how Gordon tells Roger that he had originally sought out a man called Roger Smith to conduct negotiations with the one who directs the world, because he wanted a person who was capable of changing their role to conduct this task?

Dorothy believes that all actions are predetermined; this is the logic of an android. Robots cannot believe in miracles or incidents, only hard reason and fact. If it is her fate to be captured and taken away, then this is the way it must pass.

She is not like Roger, in that she can change her role, her destiny. Roger does not understand this and pleads with her to escape--but Dorothy refuses.


quote:
Can somebody elaberate on this entire sequence and tell me what Dorothy says when she first saw them? There was something significant in what she said..that may hold the key to understanding not only Paradigm City...but maybe the reasoning behind the entire series. Can anybody help me out on this one? Because I'm still stuck on explaining Dorothy's mysterious inaction against the spider robots from kidnapping her.


She says something like "What are you? You don't have any machine emotions."

And the reason for this is simple: these are not intelligent robots, but just programmed drones.
The Ghost of Ember 02-07-2006 11:56 PM
I thought this was a deeply emotional scene for Dorothy, which might have been glossed over for many due to Dorothy’s usually stoic performance and Rogers usual dramatic flair. As for the reason behind her 'giving up', I think it mostly has to do with this line.

"They want to capture and keep me? Dorothy one, the megadeus rotting underground, Leviathan."

Which is quickly followed by:

"They want the memories inside me."

And:

"I am not like these Robots or Roger, I will always have this same body and this same heart."

The conclusion I came away with was that Dorothy knew that she would be continually chased down due to her memories, and since she is effectively immortal at some point or other she will eventually be caught. Whether or not she knew she could 'survive' the removal of her memories is debatable, I tend to think no, and that she probably was just choosing to 'end it' at a point in which she felt 'happy' with her life. Or somesuch.
Jstar136 02-09-2006 09:34 PM
I agree with what you huys have been discussing earlier.

I finished watching Act 20: Stripes and noticed that Dorothy was in the same predicament again.

She was being cornered by Alan Gabriel and she refused to move while he advanced with his drill hand. Perhaps this is when it dawns on her that her fate is inevitable?
Lost_Cyborg 02-10-2006 07:57 AM
I did have a theory which made sence but it's been so long since I've seen season 2 I've forgotten it... Hang on lets think....

It was something like this:
In Acts where she was in danger and fought against it (if memory serves) Roger had ofter done something to please her/not upset her.
Dorothy seems to obey (to an extent) Roger's orders, dispite the fact he hasn't noticed this (Deamon Seed - the elevator; Dorothy seems to know what is going to happen).
What things had Roger done in Stripes and when she was kidnapped by the scorpion/spider robots to upset her?
I can't rember.

Something I've noticed about Dorothy is that when Roger isn't around (Or someone else she is close to) she seems to mope around, maybe there is a small part of her mind (a glitch or problem brought over from Dorothy Prime or Beck's device in Beck Comes Back) which causes her to become depressed when she's alone/away from people she trusts.
When the scorpian robots come Roger is absent, but Norman is there, she does begin to fight at first.

She says that she's different to Roger (human) and the other robots (basic machines), maybe she realised that while she would "stay the same" Roger would change; age. I know if I was her that would depress me.
.... Okay so those where some messed up theorys, so if someone else wants to carry them on feel free...
Randolph 02-10-2006 08:10 PM
I was under the impression Dorothy allowed herself to be captured intentionally. Knowing Rosewater was preparing Big Fau, she allowed herself to be caught so that her core memory would be used in the resuscitation process. Once Fau was active, she could commune with it and render it defective.
The Hourglass' device we see is, as far as I know, the very device removed from Dorothy. It's motion leads me to believe she was trying to convince Fau not to obey Alex, as it only moved when he was making selfish, arrogant rants.

Well, that's what I got out of it. Maybe I missed it entirely.
Shadow dorothy 05-21-2006 01:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DorothyFan1
I'd like to discuss this small mystery because I seem to be stuck on this scene from Act 23? "Twisted Memories". There's something about this scene that continues to elude me...and it's when the spider robots invade Roger Smith's mansion to kidnap Dorothy.

The problem is this...what exactly is Dorothy doing? Nothing. She lets the spider robots succeed in kidnapping her. She didn't even lift a finger to fight them from attempting to take her. And just before they jettison off with her...she sees Roger Smith for the last time (until they're reunited in Act 26) and then she says the strangest thing..."I'm not like you, Roger Smith". What did Dorothy mean by this?

Can somebody elaberate on this entire sequence and tell me what Dorothy says when she first saw them? There was something significant in what she said..that may hold the key to understanding not only Paradigm City...but maybe the reasoning behind the entire series. Can anybody help me out on this one? Because I'm still stuck on explaining Dorothy's mysterious inaction against the spider robots from kidnapping her.


I think what Dorothy wanted to say was that like something along the lines of what happened to the human Dorothy would happen to her as well so she couldn't do any thing about.

As for what she did I'm clueless because even if she was to repeat the past you think she'd fight back or atempt to get away.
Jixie 05-21-2006 10:57 PM
When I first saw this part, I felt that it was a combonation of Dorothy's usual complete lack of acting in self-defense and her having given up at this point. As long as she has those core memories, and is associated with Roger and Big O, she will be hunted for. She can't change her role, etc., etc.

Since then I've taken a liking to R Trusedale's theory (scroll down to near the end of the page) about her transfering memories/uploading into Big O. It makes sense and fits so well, while making the whole situation a little less depressing.

Yay, reviving old threads.

~J
Nazrael 08-29-2006 06:09 PM
I hate to dig up an old thread, but I wanted to share what I thought.

The robots came for Dorothy because of her memories. From what she says to the robots, ("Dorothy 1...That robot beneath ground...Leviathan...") I would assume that she not only has the memories of Dorothy Wayneright, but has also collected the memories of the Megadei and Archetypes that she has connected with.

The later thing she says, "I'm not like you Roger, I will always have this same body and this same heart." meant that it doesn't matter to her if they take her memories away, because memories or not she will always be R.Dorothy Wayneright.
Shadow dorothy 08-29-2006 09:43 PM
Yeah, Dorothy does say that stuff. I think she meant she can't feel.
Ionexchange 08-29-2006 09:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spoderman
Remember how Gordon tells Roger that he had originally sought out a man called Roger Smith to conduct negotiations with the one who directs the world, because he wanted a person who was capable of changing their role to conduct this task?

Dorothy believes that all actions are predetermined; this is the logic of an android. Robots cannot believe in miracles or incidents, only hard reason and fact. If it is her fate to be captured and taken away, then this is the way it must pass.

She is not like Roger, in that she can change her role, her destiny. Roger does not understand this and pleads with her to escape--but Dorothy refuses.


Correct. This explination is a continuing inference of my overall theory that Big O is a dialog in predestination versus choices. But here is the creepy part... we are led to believe that Roger Smith is a human (our own preconceptions, us being the viewing audience), then, however, we are told that Roger is an android that is mass produced. Yet, Roger is allowed to make choices all through out the series, even to the point that Roger chooses death over being assimilated with Big O. So if Roger can make choices, why cannot Angel?
Nazrael 08-29-2006 11:55 PM
If Dorothy believed in pre-determined events, why then did she stop Alan Gabriel from harming her, rather than letting him have his way with her? Why then did she remove the pipe-bomb, rather than letting herself explode like all the other androids had done?

This isn't an attack, just trying to spark up conversation is all. Big Grin
Ionexchange 08-30-2006 07:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nazrael
If Dorothy believed in pre-determined events, why then did she stop Alan Gabriel from harming her, rather than letting him have his way with her?


Ah, but that is just it. Dorothy did not do very much to keep from Alan harming her. She threw just one punch, and her attempt of running away was not very convensing. It was Roger who saved her, just in the nick of time (like in the movies).

quote:
Originally posted by Nazrae Why then did she remove the pipe-bomb, rather than letting herself explode like all the other androids had done?


The other androids may not have had the opportunity to remove the bomb so we do know what they would do. Therefore, we cannot infer that just letting the bomb kill her is inevitable.
It may also be pre-determined that she remove the bomb, we don't know.

The point being, we know that Dorothy could have stopped, or at least put up a fight, to prevent her abduction. So, why didn't she? Dorothy is following the script.
Nazrael 08-30-2006 08:12 PM
Perhaps she just didn't want to have her memories anymore. Whatever the Archetype/Leviathan had shown her, it didn't seem like it was pleasant.
Zopwx2 08-30-2006 08:14 PM
More like she got all emo about being a robot and was conflicted about her "emotions" so she let herself get captured.
R. Daniel Olk 01 08-30-2006 11:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Ghost of Ember
I thought this was a deeply emotional scene for Dorothy, which might have been glossed over for many due to Dorothy’s usually stoic performance and Rogers usual dramatic flair. As for the reason behind her 'giving up', I think it mostly has to do with this line.

"They want to capture and keep me? Dorothy one, the megadeus rotting underground, Leviathan."

Which is quickly followed by:

"They want the memories inside me."

And:

"I am not like these Robots or Roger, I will always have this same body and this same heart."

The conclusion I came away with was that Dorothy knew that she would be continually chased down due to her memories, and since she is effectively immortal at some point or other she will eventually be caught. Whether or not she knew she could 'survive' the removal of her memories is debatable, I tend to think no, and that she probably was just choosing to 'end it' at a point in which she felt 'happy' with her life. Or somesuch.


I think Ember says it best. Some of you are saying what he says more or less, but he elucidates completely. Yeah... essentially immortal, so at one point they'll succeed, can't keep running forever... might as well give up. Exactly. Plus Ember gives good supporting quotes and those are, after all, the best evidence. ^.^
Tsukaggin 08-31-2006 02:25 PM
But she ISN'T immortal. Her parts will one day fail, as all machines do. She says as much herself if I recall correctly.
R. Daniel Olk 01 08-31-2006 03:13 PM
Alright, so Ember used an exaggerated word and I supported an exaggerated word. Roll Eyes

The point is: she'll live a really, really long time! And that whole time, she'd be plagued...